The History of 300

[asprin]

think if someone made a poem or painting of the epic battle, with distorted colors and shapes. that is wat the movie will b. they say if we do not learn from our past we have no future. honestly, the youth and even elders of modern generations interest in the past thins. todays society wants thier drink straight strong and fast, preferably in a pretty color. this is not a retelling, or a historic account, but an artistic take on the raw passion of the story. in all hopes, one who loves the movie or comic enough will take the time to research the history of it, and learn factual details.

 

[Lady Leonidas]

One who admires certain ancient cultures or views does not have to embrace every single idea or view. Should we turn our noses up to our founding fathers just because they posessed slaves? I, for one, think we should admire classical Greece. After all, Western culture did start there. If the Persians would have conquered that small penisula as they put it, who knows how different the world today would be.

I think we should admire both cultures. Both are historically and culturally important, though different.

If the Persians had won, yes, the world would be different than the world today... that is obvious. But who is to say it would not be greater place for its additional influence?

It would be wonderful if the History Channel would do a "History vs. Hollywood" on this one!!!

Lady Leonidas :meow:

 

[jnpoe]

except your forgetting that the entire basis of western civilization is greek and roman, America was founded on priciples of democracy that were first founded in greece. Maby modern America doesnt correlate well with the time period of greece that we are looking at in 300 but reveloutionary war America fits a little better, and once Sparta becomes the dominant city state in Greece after the Pelopanesean(sp) war Sparta does become the military super power that would correlate well with modern day America.

Bottom Line is the West will always depict other Western civiliations as the good guys and everyone else as the bad guys, basically because its true.

Some truths historically speaking ..... But Sparta never attacked other city just do whatever their interests were , they never used their power to blown a city and to show the world who was gonna rule it , or otherwise they would feel their power ....... Sparta never used their military power in their foreign policy

It was for a time the most powerful greek city but in no moment an empire , It never went to war alone , specially not because of the will of 1 Spartan King or because it would be $$ interesting for some parts of the society

In no way the 300 spartans or the army should be confused with the U.S. Military , no offense , but IMO that would be a offense to their memory

Sparta could and should be similar with a Western Country after all it was ..... but like I said before , Sparta was NEVER a Empire or tried to rule upon others

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

But Sparta never attacked other city just do whatever their interests were ,

Messenia was taken by Sparta, and its subjects made their hunting and terror targets, and they also kept them as slaves.

 

[herakles]

Messenia was taken by Sparta, and its subjects made their hunting and terror targets, and they also kept them as slaves.

you are RIGHT BUT also so did EVERY Greek polis attack other Greek polis'!

 

[jnpoe]

Messenia was taken by Sparta, and its subjects made their hunting and terror targets, and they also kept them as slaves.

Wasn't that called by the greeks ?

'
Later Greeks agreed that a body of Dorians under Cresphontes invaded the country from Arcadia, and, taking as their capital Stenyclarus in the northern plain, extended, first their suzerainty, and then their rule over the whole district. However, given that the Arcadian language is a direct and conservative descendent of Mycenaean Greek, it is more likely that the Dorians pushed the native Messenians into Arcadia.
'

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Heres a nice excerpt about Sparta's slaves, the Helots:

"Helots initially came in two main varieties: those who were natives of Laconia, and the Messenians. The Messenian Helots, residents of the westernmost finger of the Peloponnese, had once been free citizens of their own polis; they were conquered by Sparta in colonial wars of the eighth and seventh centuries b.c. It was in the course of these hard-fought wars that Sparta's military machine came into being. Despite centuries of subjugation, the Messenian Helots remembered their free origins; they told tales of their brave resistance in ancient conflicts with the Spartans. These folk memories stimulated the will to resist whenever the chance arose, the Messenian Helots rose up against their masters and fled to the steep slopes of Mount Ithome, which looms over the fertile Messenian plain. The best documented of the Messenian uprisings occurred in 463 B.C., in the aftermath of an earthquake that killed a number of Spartan Similars and disrupted Peloponnesian communications. A generation later, during the Peloponnesian War, Helots flocked to the fortified Athenian camp at Pylos--it was Spartan panic at the specter of Athenian support for armed Helot insurgency that precipitated the rash action that led to the Sphakteria debacle.

Spartan society was completely dependent on the systematic exploitation of the Helots, both as agricultural laborers and as porters during military expeditions: at Plataea, during the Persian Wars, each Spartan hoplite was attended by seven Helots. But since the Helots, especially those of Messenia, were far from willing accomplices, the Spartans were forced to expend enormous energies in attempting to keep their serf caste in its place. Sparta, as a society, was necessarily turned inward on and against itself. The Similars spent their lives nervously policing the Helots for signs of revolt and obsessively watching each other for signs of non-conformity--because only an unbroken front would keep the much more numerous Helots at bay.

To remind everyone of the real state of affairs in Spartan territory, the Spartan Assembly formally declared war on the Helot population each year. Individual Helots were ritually humiliated--for example, by forcing them to drink massive quantities of alcohol as object lessons for young Spartans in the virtues of moderation. But more serious was the dreaded Krypteia--"The Secret Matter." Although, like so much in Sparta, the Krypteia was deliberately shrouded in mystery and misinformation, it appears that before being inducted into a mess unit, the would-be Similar was required to serve as a member of a highly secretive team of state-sponsored assassins. The youthful members of the Krypteia snuck about Spartan territory, especially at night, and assassinated those Helots thought to be outstanding in any way--it could be fatally dangerous for a Helot to be regarded as handsome, intelligent, or ambitious. How many Helots actually died under the knives or garrotes of the members of the Krypteia each year is unknown, but there is little doubt that the Spartans intended the Helot's life to be spent in permanent insecurity and sheer terror--never knowing when the blow would fall, or why.

On some occasions, the individualized, random violence of the Krypteia was not regarded as enough. Thucydides notes that Spartans had once become "so afraid of [the Helots'] unyielding character and their numbers" that they devised the following plan: they proclaimed that the Helots themselves should make a list of those Helots who had done the finest service for Sparta during military operations, implying that these men would be rewarded with their freedom. Thucydides continues: "This was, however, a test conducted in the belief that the ones who showed most spirit and came forward first to claim their freedom would be the very ones most likely to rise up against Sparta." Some 2,000 men were duly selected; they put on festive garlands and made thanks offerings to the gods. "Soon, however, the Spartans did away with them, and no one ever knew exactly how each one of them was killed." - Military History Quarterly

You can read the entire 4 page article here:

http://www.historynet.com/wars_conflicts/ancient_medieval_wars/3033226.html?page=1&c=y

 

[jnpoe]

Dude u made no point about Sparta takin on Messenia , read above , Tell me was Sparta's only decision to conquer it , no , As far I read it was a group of greek cities

And .... So what Spartans had slaves ? Tell me any city of the world before Middle Age that didn't have slaves ? That's the way the city was built , and kept working .... The children were raised with that , that's the way things were in that Dictatorship . Like was said before , it was far away from being the ideal society , but still it didn't pretended to be or anything like , as some certain countries . And still they have a big sense of honor , a strong code of justice , The Men actually respected women , unlike most of the cities on that time ..... And Again I say , they never wanted to be an empire , they never did a massacre on a city to show the world to not mess with them .....
And they never did start a war , so Some Spartans could have profits with it , in Rebuilding the city and all

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

What a rosy picture you make of Sparta.

That article shows there that not only did they declare war ANNUALLY, they attacked the Helots for fun, they didnt even have any other reason except that they were jealous of their numbers.

Look nobody is saying they were the only ones who were cruel to their slaves and subjects, the reality is history is always more interesting than fiction...the irony of 300 is really the biggest interest for me in watching it.

 

[jnpoe]

Look Midnyte , I don't where are u from , but If I had to guess I would say u were an eastern person . so explains some of u sayings ......

Anyway this is gettin old , So I will try to say my final words on this thread , look :

1- What Exactly rosy picture of Sparta I built ? Did I came up with any lie ?
2- Like I said before Sparta was away from being Heaven on Earth , but also like I said , for any who tries to compare Sparta , or the 300 whatever with the US army .....

SPARTA - FOREIGN POLICY

Sparta, by the 5th century BC, was the most powerful nation in all of Greece. Unlike many of the Greek city-states it had only one colony, and most of its power came from alliances with other regions. Sparta was NOT AN EMPIRE: no tribute was paid except in times of war. What Sparta essentially formed was a league, and they chose their allies strategically. For example, Sparta favoured Corinth because of its naval fleet. The allies would vow to have the same friends and enemies, follow Sparta wherever they led, and NOT GO to war unless ALL the allies were in CONSENSUS. The league's governmental structure was fairly democratic; it met in Corinth and was led by Sparta. The Congress, as it was called, consisted of representatives from each of the allied city states who each held one vote.

3- I would suggest u read a bit more about Terrorism to know what's is really is .... Krypteya , as any book teaches , it was a act called by a death squad indeed , sometimes a test for the younger Spartans , to kill Helots when they were in a large number . That's the way Spartans were raised , they lived under a system depending on the Helots , which were in a much bigger number of the spartans , which basically made they live on fear upon the helots , fearing their bigger number and possible revolts . Indeed Helots were treated as animals , but what did u expect in a military dictatorship ? What I'm tryin to say is , Sparta's was built in very wrong ways , with lots of distorted ideas , but U can't deny the value of lots of Spartans , that's What I praise for what's worth and defend . Now think , if u were raised like that , away from ur mother's love at early , and instead of love , u have to face ur own father , fight with him , be beaten by him .... And from the very early u are raised seeing the Helots as animals , and at a certain point , People ORDER U to kill it , otherwise ur life is practically over .....

When U say be glad u live in free world not In Sparta , u ironically must thank Some Spartans as the 300 , The Athens shined of course , with the credits of Democracy , but without the dirty job done by the Spartans none would be possible .... One may say Leonidas's Line : 'Know that 300 gave their last breath for Freedom ' didn't really happened , but it's the fact ironically , not wanting or not , they helped indirectly build Democracy , that's what it counts in the end .

 

[@JeanGrey]

First of all i would like to say that i am very curious abt the movie. I was dissapointed by the last 2 hollywood greek history attempts, mainly because they failed to show the spirit of some important historical figures

I do not consider myself as nationalist, but i can claim i have searched and read a lot of greek history in my life...

Therefore, i will post few links from a greek website that i TRUST more than others on historical issues. Plus they are not tiring and easy to understand.
Whoever is interested may take a look:

About Persian invasion

About social structures of the era in greek area

About Sparta in 5th century

I will agree with those who say not to compare Sparta with US army. If i was to compare a greek city with today's US that would definetely be Athens. Spartans were always different from other cities both in laws, slight differencies between slavory policy, and they treated their women better than the others (at least the 'healthy ones')

In ancient culture armies were functioning totally differently from nowadays. Things were different, we are talking about people and societies 2500 years ago!!!

One thing is certain about armies in ancient Greece: they were there to fight for their homes, their families and values. This can be prved by the thousands of found written sculptures and texts of writers (not only Herodotus or Thoukidides).

 

[herakles]

well the last 2 posts have been exactly what I think and believe in! As a modern Hellene myself I do have a bias towards my ancestors BUT I do have a great deal of respect for the Ancient Persian Empire!

I say that 300 will be the sword and sandle version of Sin City and NOT be historically accurate with the exception of the outcome of the battle! If there was to be a movie based on a graphic or written novel of this event it SHOULD be Gates of Fire (because of the Historical accuracy and the Epic tone of the novel) BUT due to the success of Sin City Miller got the ok! So we should ALL take the historical accuracy of 300 with a grian of salt and try to enjoy BraveHeart2 without Mel Gibson

 

[anela]

So we should ALL take the historical accuracy of 300 with a grian of salt and try to enjoy BraveHeart2 without Mel Gibson

heee heee, i still haven't seen Braveheart. then again, i skipped Gladiator too

grain of salt, yes. i don't watch any movie thinking what i'm seeing is "the truth" if the storyline peaks my interest enough i'll research the subject further on my own.

 

[Nivek]

Hey guys, I think it's time to point out that this is indeed much like Braveheart (especially the portrayal of Sparti..., um... William Wallace by a far too old, too beardless, and too short Gibson) and is ment to be a Entertaining film and not a fact filled documentry. I understand the topic at hand is indeed about the REAL story of the Hot Gates and the Spartans, but some of you are clinging on 2500 year old quibbles about Slaves (hey, even the much saintified Native Americans kept War Slaves), so I think it's futile to bring it up trying to in effect make the Spartans look like "Terrorists". Hell, in that time, the common definition for a Terrorist seems almost laughable compared to their daily reality.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Jnpoe,

1stly, WTH does it matter where I come from?

2ndly, I'm not telling, nor is my intention to tell you what to believe, the history books are out there for anybody to see. History proves the Spartans terrorized the Helots, humiliated them on a daily basis, murdered them for sport, they even had homosexual tendencies.

You copy and pasted information on their state, some of their supposed rules and regulations, again, nothing there I need to argue about as it is also there in the history books.

There is not enough real history behind 300, only an idea - freedom, which is what the theme of the movie is all about.

 

[Assassin]

I was wondering the same thing about the history of this story, thanks. Also, I would love a movie about The Chaldean Kings of Babylon, Nabopolassar and his son Nebuchadnezzar II. Truly great stories that would make a great movie

 

[herakles]

I was at Borders yesterday and I saw something THAT PISSED ME OFF! The Persian Immortal action figure had demon feet and hands! If the movie is like that, then I find that VERY OFFENSIVE!!!! Persians where HUMANS NOT DEMONS!!!!!!!

 

[Nivek]

Uh-oh, someone knocked over the wacko basket...

pictures of that figure have been out for a while, chill out.

 

[herakles]

Uh-oh, someone knocked over the wacko basket...

Pictures of that figure have been out for a while, chill out.

I am chill BUT I hate that! I am Greek so you would expect me not to care BUT come on!!! One thing is to portray the Persians are invaders but Portray them as nonhuman is another! If I was of Persian decent I would be Insulted that my ancestors are portray as NONHuman Demons! That could be constrode as portraying African people as Primates!

 

[jnpoe]

I was at Borders yesterday and I saw something THAT PISSED ME OFF! The Persian Immortal action figure had demon feet and hands! If the movie is like that, then I find that VERY OFFENSIVE!!!! Persians where HUMANS NOT DEMONS!!!!!!!

Was it one of those ninja like Immortals , or that giant one of the poster Leonidas will face ?

 

[Nivek]

I am chill BUT I hate that! I am Greek so you would expect me not to care BUT come on!!! One thing is to portray the Persians are invaders but Portray them as nonhuman is another! If I was of Persian decent I would be Insulted that my ancestors are portray as NONHuman Demons! That could be constrode as portraying African people as Primates!

It. Is. A. Movie. Based. On. A. Graphic. Novel. Not. History.

 

[jnpoe]

Bloody hell now that was a **** up , big **** up about this movei , I know it's based on a comic , but didn't remember anything on it , bout immortals being demoniacs ....... I mean C'mon there were some cool adds to it :

- That freak with blades on arms
- That giant immortal throwing the ax in Leonidas , meaning a possible big fight with him

And the particular fact that the Immortals looking like ninjas on this movie , was somethin really really cool I thought , I mean it's like I studied in history , they were called Im.... coz always when one fell , one came on , and hiding their faces it would like they were indeed immortal , but behind their faces these monster's faces C'mon ....... It ****ed them up , Why can't they be normal men , would be so great , during their panic in the Spartan's wall trap , getting slaughtered , then with all their hate on revenge upon the greeks , all this would be cool and great with human beings , now bloody demoniac faces ???? Was this supposed to make the spartans ' more heroics ' in a weird way ? Coz I don't think this was needed

 

[kytrigger]

^ Do we even know if they look like this in the movie? I mean this wouldn't be the first time that a toy line has completely changed a certain part of a movie for their action figure.

 

[Nivek]

As far as the Immortals looking like Monsters, style wise, it looks cool. But if you wanted to get Historical, many soldiers were marred by disease, severe wounds, ect. Also, some used to alter their appearence to look more fierce in battle. So it could be stated that the Immortals may have some basis in reality.

Also, as far as the "Monsters" go, some leaders used to keep unique looking individuals close to them because it added to their godlike ambiance keeping such curiosities around them. Given the context of the film, I buy into that no problem.

I also try to keep myself grounded and realise this isn't supposed to be filled with Historical detail.

 

[herakles]

My argument is that if the Persians where either Hispanic or Black there would be alot of people *****ing about racism but since we in a cold war state with Iran it is ok?! My problem is that I HATED 300 I bought and read but It PISSED me off at the way the story and the figures was butchered! I WISH that Gates of Fire was made into a movie instead of 300!