The Honduran Coup

[Paradoxium]

Can anyone show me why Obama is doing this? Is it really simply political ideology?

I would like to know where Obama is coming from - I don't need to agree, just comprehend.

No (not purely idealogical) if I had to take an educated guess, probably paying lip service to those who helped get him in power aka the Alinsky Progressives. This is also why I never thought Obama as a full on Progressive (at most a small "c"). He seemed like he was riding their coat tails to gain power and presidency. Thankfully all this amounts to cheap words, but if he takes action... that is another issue all together.

 

[Paradoxium]

Honestly, I am having problem seeing this as a twitch idealogical reaction, or a lip service thing.

 

[Kelly]

No (not purely idealogical) if I had to take an educated guess, probably paying lip service to those who helped get him in power aka the Alinsky Progressives. This is also why I never thought Obama as a full on Progressive (at most a small "c"). He seemed like he was riding their coat tails to gain power and presidency. Thankfully all this amounts to cheap words, but if he takes action... that is another issue all together.

Totally agree, I think that has been running around in the back of my mind for a few months now....

 

[Red Mask]

Wow, all your reactions to this was slower than the reaction to Michael Jackson's death. What's it to you anyway? For decades U.S.A. got away with **** down there and now they decided not to take military action when a government exiles its own leader. You're also making excuses for a coup d'etat where the rule of law has been broken.

 

[Kelly]

Wha?????

 

[Darthphere]

I'm so glad this happened. This is really change you can believe in. Now lets see Nicaragua wise up and do the same thing.

 

[StorminNorman]

Wow, all your reactions to this was slower than the reaction to Michael Jackson's death. What's it to you anyway? For decades U.S.A. got away with **** down there and now they decided not to take military action when a government exiles its own leader. You're also making excuses for a coup d'etat where the rule of law has been broken.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Wow, all your reactions to this was slower than the reaction to Michael Jackson's death. What's it to you anyway? For decades U.S.A. got away with **** down there and now they decided not to take military action when a government exiles its own leader. You're also making excuses for a coup d'etat where the rule of law has been broken.

The President of Honduras was the one breaking Honduran law, not the government.

 

[SuBe]

Wow, all your reactions to this was slower than the reaction to Michael Jackson's death. What's it to you anyway? For decades U.S.A. got away with **** down there and now they decided not to take military action when a government exiles its own leader. You're also making excuses for a coup d'etat where the rule of law has been broken.

[RM] Hi everybody, it's backwards day![/RM]

 

[Paradoxium]

Been reading more on the facts of the case.

Article 239: No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President.

Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.

It's a well known fact only their congress can decide on this constitutional matter (amendment). In this instance, Zelaya wants to be president for life, ala Chavez. Yet Zelaya illegally pushes the matter (military does not comply - head gets fired, so he gets a mob). Then the Honduran government follows their constitution to deal with this matter... and the Obama response is to ask them to violate their own god damn constitution. Has anyone in the MSM call out his BS yet?

 

[Paradoxium]

More Obama-Fail

Obama fails statesmanship test in Honduras crisis

the Honduran Congress took up the matter of the removal of Mr. Zelaya from the Presidency in accordance with its powers under Title V, Chapter I, Article 205, paragraph 15, which authorizes the Congress to bring up charges against the President. By unanimous vote of the Representatives, including the members of Zelaya’s party, who constitute a majority of the legislative body, he was removed.

 

[Paradoxium]

Obama-Fail-Trick (tri-fail for today)

Honduras Supreme Court Justice Calls President’s Ouster Legal

July 1 (Bloomberg) -- Honduras’s military acted under judicial orders in deposing President Manuel Zelaya, Supreme Court Justice Rosalinda Cruz said, rejecting the view of President Barack Obama and other leaders that he was toppled in a coup.

“The only thing the armed forces did was carry out an arrest order,” Cruz, 55, said in a telephone interview from the capital, Tegucigalpa. “There’s no doubt he was preparing his own coup by conspiring to shut down the congress and courts.”

Cruz said the court issued a sealed arrest order for Zelaya on June 26, charging him with treason and violating the constitution, among other offenses. Zelaya had repeatedly breached the constitution by pushing ahead with a nationwide vote that the court ruled illegal, and which opponents contend might have paved the way for a prohibited second term.

She compared Zelaya’s tactics, including firing of the armed forces chief for obeying a court order to impound the ballots for the poll, with those of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

“Some say it was not Zelaya but Chavez governing,” she said, adding that the arrest order will be made public today along with documents pertaining to a secret investigation that took place for weeks under the high court’s supervision.

Cruz acknowledged that the interim government faced a “very difficult” task trying to sway the U.S. and other countries to recognize its authority.

‘Sovereign and Independent’

“But as a sovereign and independent nation, we have the right to freely decide to remove a president who was violating our laws,” she said. “Unfortunately our voice hasn’t been heard.”

The U.S. joined 33 other countries in an emergency session of the Organization of American States yesterday to demand Zelaya be reinstated within 72 hours or face suspension from the Washington-based group. Zelaya said he will return to the country this week, with OAS Secretary General Jose Miguel Insulza and Argentina’s President Cristina Fernandez.

The United Nations General Assembly approved by acclamation yesterday a resolution calling for Zelaya’s reinstatement and asking that no government recognize the interim president appointed by the congress, Roberto Micheletti.

Although lawmakers were moving toward impeachment proceedings against Zelaya for trying to conduct the poll, the ouster allows him to portray himself as a “victim,” said Rafael Lopez, a senior Honduras adviser to the Washington-based International Foundation for Electoral Systems.

“No country on earth” can legally force an elected official into exile without a formal proceeding, he added. “The Honduran government can’t just take any citizen to an airport and kick them out, let alone a president.”

 

[StorminNorman]

I want to believe that Obama heard "Honduran militant coup" and just assumed bad.

I would take greater solace that Obama is simply dumb rather than his being dogmatic.

 

[Darthphere]

Obama and all these other countries need to butt the **** out. I mean, where were all these people when all these South American dictators started coming out of the wood work.

 

[Paradoxium]

Zeyala is actually a wannabe dictator (wanted life term) that broke the law to conduct an ammendment. More of which is not even popular both politically (his own party doesn't even like him) and in the public. Zeyala's popularity from what I understand was in the 30% ballpark, that is pretty close to Bush level of fail (20-25%).

Obama has no respect for the rule of law as far as I am concerned. He gets a activist judge and now this. Sotomayor is at least palatable, she is qualified and doesn't really change much of the balance of power in the Supreme Court. But this... this really takes the cake. And the MSM has the audacity to not even try to criticize Obama (I am looking at you New York Times) siding against the law with the thug (Zeyala). From what I observe, there are even those on the left who are starting to question this. Particularly those with friends and relatives in Honduras.

 

[BestGirl]

^How popular is this military coup among Hondurans? I don't like the idea of the military taking over for any reason, even to forestall a "potential dictator."

 

[StorminNorman]

The military didn't take over.

 

[Darthphere]

Lets put it this way, they're not mad about it.

 

[Kelly]

I think they should have waited and just voted him out...

Those leading the coup, IMO, have a different motive, than stronger leadership for the people...

 

[StorminNorman]

I think they should have waited and just voted him out...

Those leading the coup, IMO, have a different motive, than stronger leadership for the people...

If the former President wasn't getting rid of anyone those that opposed him, I would agree. It is, however, that action that justifies the coup.

 

[hippie_hunter]

^How popular is this military coup among Hondurans? I don't like the idea of the military taking over for any reason, even to forestall a "potential dictator."

The military did not take over. All they did was act upon orders from the judicial and legislative branches to remove Zelaya and he was replaced by someone from the legislature by his own party, with elections still on track for November.

 

[Darthphere]

I think they should have waited and just voted him out...

Those leading the coup, IMO, have a different motive, than stronger leadership for the people...

It's a lot more complicated than that. There were a lot of people (specifically from Hugo Chavez's camp) in Honduras so the possibility of a rigged election was growing. He had a 30% approval rating. No one is missing him.

 

[StorminNorman]

In the name of fairness - here is a pro-Zelaya opinion piece:

On June 28, 2009, President Zelaya of Honduras was forcefully ousted for invoking Article 5 of the Honduran “Civil Participation Act” of 2006, which allows all public functionaries to perform non-binding political consultations to inquire what the population thinks about policy measures.

The Honduran Constitution says nothing against the conformation of an elected National Constituent Assembly, with the mandate to draw up a completely new Constitution. [3]

The poll would have asked, "Do you agree that in the general election of November, 2009, a fourth ballot box be installed, in order to decide upon the convocation of a National Constitutional Assembly to approve a new political Constitution?" This Constitution would also require approval directly from the Honduran people, unlike the 1982 constitution which requires only a 2/3 vote by Congress. [4] [1]

Furthermore, President Zelaya's term ends in January 2010 and he is not participating in the November 2009 elections--making it impossible for him to be re-elected.

Moreover, it is completely uncertain what the probable National Constituent Assembly would have suggested concerning matters of presidential periods and re-elections. These suggestions would have to be approved by all Hondurans and this would have happened at a time when Zelaya would have concluded his term. [2]

This was not an attempt to extend President Zelaya’s term. This was an attempt to create a popular constitution that would be more democratic and it would contrast with the current 1982 Constitution, which was the product of a context characterized by counter-insurgency policies supported by the US-government, civil façade military governments and undemocratic policies. [2]

Worse still, it was a power-grab by the political/military elites of the Honduran government, and another obscure piece of propaganda pulled against President Obama. This is why media omissions are dangerous.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/spanish/latin_america/newsid_7965000/7965269.stm [1]

http://www.counterpunch.org/thorensen07012009.html [2]

http://www.constitution.org/cons/honduras.htm [3]

http://www.laprensahn.com/País/Ediciones/2009/06/11/Noticias/Sigue-rechazo-a-la-cuarta-urna [4]

 

[Hobodeluxe]

so a coup by a right winger because the leftist president asked for a ballot initiative is justified?

 

[Matt]

That article was very presumptious of people's intent including Zelaya's, assuming the best of him while assuming the worst of everyone else. Furthermore, it wasn't a coup by right wingers. It was a coup by everyone. It was a unanimous vote in their legislative body. Zelaya's political allies voted for it. On top of that Zelaya had a 30 % approval rating. There has been celebration in Honduras Clearly the people were behind such a move.

But I could care less about what happened in Honduras, I care about our own country. Obama has still not responded to threats to launch a nuclear weapon at us on July 4th. Iran had countless people being killed in protest and it took Obama a week to say he was going to wait and see how it played out. Yet a leader who is idealogically similiar to him is legally removed from power and he raises a fuss? That is concerning to me.