The Irredeemable ANT-MAN!!!!!!!!!!!

[Marcdachamp]

Just got issue 3. Damn Eric's a jerk. I love it! He reminds me of Starscream. Backstabbing, methodical, opportunistic... the kind of character you love to loath.

Come on guys, give it a shot!

 

[Muze]

Just got issue 3. Damn Eric's a jerk. I love it! He reminds me of Starscream. Backstabbing, methodical, opportunistic... the kind of character you love to loath.

Come on guys, give it a shot!

i hear that name a lot. who the heck is Starscream? transformers character, right? it's weird how i grew up right when this cartoon was big but only maybe saw one episode of it. must have been a bad time slot. maybe they should change the title to 'The Treacherous Ant-Man.'

 

[deemar325]

i hear that name a lot. who the heck is Starscream? transformers character, right? it's weird how i grew up right when this cartoon was big but only maybe saw one episode of it. must have been a bad time slot. maybe they should change the title to 'The Treacherous Ant-Man.'

That'll be written by Bendis.

 

[Muze]

That'll be written by Bendis.

as long as he doesn't kill him or hook him up with Jessica Jones, i'm cool.

 

[Marcdachamp]

i hear that name a lot. who the heck is Starscream? transformers character, right? it's weird how i grew up right when this cartoon was big but only maybe saw one episode of it. must have been a bad time slot. maybe they should change the title to 'The Treacherous Ant-Man.'

He was basically the Decepticon second-in-command. He was constantly trying to overthrow Megatron, the leader. Also one of my favorite characters.

 

[Dread]

Posting my B/T post:

IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #3: Unlike the others, this one is an actual ongoing, but there is nothing to be optimistic about in terms of sales. It's first issue debuted at #62, which is rather abysmal. NO Marvel book that debuts below the Top 50 lasts 12 issues. Not one. By issue #6 it may be teetering on the bottom 90 or lower and Marvel will bite the bullet and can it. It's only hope is to look at the sales figures for November to see if the CHOOSING SIDES mini gave it a bump. I doubt it. And it is a shame because it's an interesting, enjoyable book that is running with the concept that the WORST possible guy to inherit the monniker of Ant-Man has, and scoring points with it in an interweaving story that embraces the continuity of ENEMY OF THE STATE, which a lot of Marvel books seemed to ignore (Wolverine attacks half the MU, and the President, and maybe 5 people in other books noticed it. Disgusting). Chris is dead, Eric O'Grady is off exploiting his friend's death to score with his girlfriend Veronica (who he lied to and claimed Chris was cheating on), and Mitch is tapped by SHIELD to track the suit down under the behest of the devil herself, Maria Hill (at least by how most people write her, she's the devil; she spits at Mr. Fantastic for daring to have compassion for a POW and all that). Now, Muze and I have discussed that this book has a neat concept but needs to avoid having Greg's "jerkback" routine backfire and make him loathable. His points were that many characters on TV and comics have shot to stardom by being irredeemable jerks; House on HOUSE is one example. And Greg does fit that quality, although I don't see him as irredeemable as simply being FAR less selfless and genuinely altruistic as many heroes do. Sure, he does "fight evil" and take down wife-beating husbands or muggers in dark alleys, but he also looks out for himself first, scoping out women in showers and using quite a few lures to try to bed Veronica. But yet I don't feel he is completely evil, and that Chris' death did have him feel genuinely bad. Again, if he was really evil he'd be out robbing banks, not punching out muggers to try to date women. But he is a bonafide scuzzball, no doubt about it. Just not a villian. Which is the mix the book needs. Like I said, Kirkman is turning the "legacy hero" angle on it's head, and it's a great concept for a franchise that hasn't had a solo in, what, 40 years? However, if it's debut issue couldn't even crack the Top 60, I doubt the book is lasting long. Enjoy it while it lasts. I know I will. Oh, and Hester's art rocks, as usual. Issues #3 and #4 are solicted but seeing past #6 is going to not be as likely if sales don't pick up or stabilize.

 

[Muze]

Posting my B/T post:

i replied to it on the last page.

 

[Dread]

i definatley agree. and this time around, i'm not too broken up about it. it's a fun read but i has no illusions of being some kind of long-lasting hit like Spider-Girl. for starters, he's Ant-Man. even the original Ant-Man, a Kirby creation, was treated like a red headed stepchild. people will not go to the comic shop and buy this without positive word of mouth. i definately can't provide all of that hype so i'm just going to enjoy the book while it lasts. that said, those top 50 listings don't mean squat to me. i maybe read 1 or 2 of those top 50 books.

I never bought or dropped a book because of sales figures, I just mention it because I know that is the reality in terms of a book's survival rate. Even RUNAWAYS, despite trades, would have been in more trouble if it kept bleeding readers, but so far it has a stable audience, albeit a small one. If ANT-MAN can find that then maybe it can last a year. But maybe #2 may have seen a boost from the CW one shot. We dunno until it is posted. I just would prefer the books I enjoy to sell better.

yes, realistically, Eric was indeed the worst most undeserving human being to ever get "handed" powers. but i really like the kid and not because he looks like Scott Lang. i like reading about Eric for the same reasons that i just bought an overpriced box set of the Sopranos. it's fun to read about people who cross the boundaries of decency and do things that would make me wince. He's at least playing at being a hero but, apparently, hasn't had one in his own life to imitate. like he sees the husband beating the wife and springs into action? with someone like Gravity (great character btw), you don't even question their actions. Gravity would be genuinely concerned with doing right. Eric, on the other hand, appeared to be more interested in learning how his powers work. i say that because he punched a hole in the guy's throat, didn't stick around to give the wife a speech about not having to take abuse, and quickly ran off to wash his costume off. & that scene at the grave where he turns to his friend's gravestone & asks,"What are you looking at?" this character fascinates me. i want to know what's going on in his head. i want to know why his parents moved away. and i want to see how the costume changes him.

All fine points. Like I said, I think that unlike a lot of "heroes", Eric always puts his own needs first. Even if he genuinely feels bad about Chris' death, he doesn't let it distract him from trying to score with Veronica. And like a lot of creeps, is able to pick himself up and try the "con" again once it fails. So in a way he also has some degree of confidence, at least moreso than the "omigod I am all thumbs" cliche of teen Peter Parker. And now that he has the suit, naturally that may be increasing. He's not perfectly likeable but in a cynical way, the type of person you're more likely to meet than Peter Parker.

well i take some of that back. Eric's problem is that he's not as 'deep' as those other characters. guys like Tony Soprano and House also appear to carry the world on their shoulders. that softens the blow a bit when talking about their bad personalities. Eric appears to be a bad seed and not a very ambitious one. if he were more mature, he'd probably be one of those supercrooks you'd see working for Justin Hammer. instead, Eric seems content to just feed off of others; Chris' loyalty, Veronica's despair, Beth's appreciation,etc). like i said in the other discussion, i don't dislike him because he doesn't seem all that self-aware. i don't think he's trying to 'get over' on anyone. it's just how he's used to interacting w/ other people. i'd compare it to how Kramer would always burst into Jerry Seinfeld's apartment & eat his food. they lack boundaries.

Comparing TV time with comic time is awkward; 10 minutes of TV footage can easily be 3 issues depending on pacing. But this is where concern for sales come in; the more issues Eric has, the more time he has to grow and become deeper. And yes, he has boundary issues, and being able to shrink so small that no one can see him won't help.

i believe "irredeemable" refers to his inability to change, in this instance. some people would be shocked into cold reality by witnessing their friend (who they've just betrayed) have his brains blown out. Eric isn't celebrating the death but i'm sure you noticed that he didn't tell Veronica the truth about Chris.

True, that ties into his "looking out for #1" thing. Even if he fights a mugger, he pretty much has a "what is in this for me" quality and uses the "heroism" to get what he wants. Again, most superheroes are simply altruistic and do good for no reward, and Eric isn't like that. Which is why the gimmick works a bit.

i'm less worried about the series failing and more concerned with the longevity of the new Ant-man. Kirkman might kill him just to wrap things up. i think that would suck because he's truly an original character (much like Freedom Ring, whom he also killed).

That's true, although Crusader is still around with that ring and Eric is loads more interesting so far than Freedom Ring, whose only really defining detail was being gay, a gimmick that's no longer as "fresh". Even his design reeked of "Havok crossed with a Green Lantern". Eric's a much better character, IMO, or at least better as in, "I'd rather read about him because he is interesting".

 

[Muze]

I never bought or dropped a book because of sales figures, I just mention it because I know that is the reality in terms of a book's survival rate.

goes without saying. i wish that marvel were doing well enough for this not to be the case. ideally, i want Marvel to put out a new Marvel Comics Presents book of higher quality. it would be the perfect place for the continuation of an Irredeemable Ant-man's tales.

All fine points. Like I said, I think that unlike a lot of "heroes", Eric always puts his own needs first. Even if he genuinely feels bad about Chris' death, he doesn't let it distract him from trying to score with Veronica.

i like how Hester drew Eric as a little less polished this time around. he really looks like he just went through hell. i'm still don't know if any of what just happened has gotten to him yet. Peter Parker would be showing signs of being hurt or depressed by now. Eric just sort of brushs it off after Chris' mom tells him that he should have been the one to die. i think Eric was more hurt at Veronica telling him that she was going back home and that there was nothing here for her. does he really like her or does he just want to get in her pants? i can't tell. and i can't tell if he's truly broken up about Chris' death. was he talking to the gravestone out of guilt? *shrugs*

And like a lot of creeps, is able to pick himself up and try the "con" again once it fails. So in a way he also has some degree of confidence, at least moreso than the "omigod I am all thumbs" cliche of teen Peter Parker. And now that he has the suit, naturally that may be increasing. He's not perfectly likeable but in a cynical way, the type of person you're more likely to meet than Peter Parker.

i do appreciate that he's confident. after last issue, i figured that he was going to be self-doubting as well as cowardly. but he seems to have no problem jumping into action; into the middle of the yancy street fight in choosing sides and into the domestic dispute this issue. this ant-man gig is probably a lot like how he imagined the life of a SHIELD agent would be. but he's definately not taking this as seriously as he should. i can already see Mitch putting a serious hurt on him as i expect that's who is wearing the other Ant-Man costume on the cover to issue #5. it's funny that they were going to choose Mitch to be the new Ant-Man in a way. he's probably been one of Eric's biggest influences and is responsible for he and Chris being at Pym's lab in the first place. this makes the grudge between he and Eric even more personal; the "villain" being somewhat responsible for the creation of the "hero."

But this is where concern for sales come in; the more issues Eric has, the more time he has to grow and become deeper. And yes, he has boundary issues, and being able to shrink so small that no one can see him won't help.

reminds me of that movie Hollow Man. Kevin Bacon's character is an egocentric prick but basically a decent guy until he gains the power of invisibility. that's when his darkside comes out. Eric's as scuzzy as Bacon's character as well, although i'd hope that he'd be above rape.

True, that ties into his "looking out for #1" thing. Even if he fights a mugger, he pretty much has a "what is in this for me" quality and uses the "heroism" to get what he wants. Again, most superheroes are simply altruistic and do good for no reward, and Eric isn't like that. Which is why the gimmick works a bit.

or doesn't work. it takes a while to get people to accept something "new." it's jumping the gun but i really wish that Ant-Man was part of a team. i think he needs to play off of someone else. i think this technique helped the Hood out over in Beyond. he was similarly self-serving and irresponsible. but his older brother relationship with Gravity humanized him.

That's true, although Crusader is still around with that ring and Eric is loads more interesting so far than Freedom Ring, whose only really defining detail was being gay, a gimmick that's no longer as "fresh".

that's the truth but i always think of it from the angle that Freedom Ring would have fit perfectly into one of my dream team lineups. why? because he's the exact opposite of Eric (immediately wanting to help others) and new enough to alleviate Ant-Man of being the only new guy. Curtis just needed fleshing out and less focus on his sexuality, imo. there was nothing wrong with his powers & his costume was easily altered. i just think he brought more to the table than Crusader; who already had shape-shifting abilities. oh well. too late. and yeah his costume was pretty lame but, then again, it was designed by a dorky guy.

 

[Mr. Green]

This title rocks. I'm in it for the long haul. Finally something original.

 

[Muze]

did anyone else notice that the solicit for this issue had nothing to do with the actual story? i don't really care because i enjoyed the story. it's just weird how it was so misleading. maybe the scenes with the "small-time crooks" got cut.

 

[The_Mystery]

Is this book good enough to make me drop "Green Lantern" for? Thoughts, opinions everyone.

 

[Marcdachamp]

Is this book good enough to make me drop "Green Lantern" for? Thoughts, opinions everyone.

Considering the fact that Hal Jordan is less interesting than Aqua Man at his worst, I'd say hell yes.

 

[The_Mystery]

Thanks much.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

i hear that name a lot. who the heck is Starscream? transformers character, right? it's weird how i grew up right when this cartoon was big but only maybe saw one episode of it. must have been a bad time slot. maybe they should change the title to 'The Treacherous Ant-Man.'

Starscream, just the greatest Transformer Evah!

 

[Muze]

Is this book good enough to make me drop "Green Lantern" for? Thoughts, opinions everyone.

depends on how much you're enjoying Green Lantern. you might want to just sample an issue. i'd recommend #3.

 

[deemar325]

Considering the fact that Hal Jordan is less interesting than Aqua Man at his worst, I'd say hell yes.

Pretty much agree, I'd take Orin over Hal anyday.

 

[deemar325]

Starscream, just the greatest Transformer Evah!

Yeah he is.

 

[Max J Power]

I haven't read any of it but my friend collects it so I will.

 

[Muze]

I haven't read any of it but my friend collects it so I will.

well make sure to post your opinion, bad or good, after you get a chance.

 

[Marcdachamp]

Pretty much agree, I'd take Orin over Hal anyday.

I STILL don't get what the point was of bringing his lame-ass back, anyway.

 

[Muze]

I STILL don't get what the point was of bringing his lame-ass back, anyway.

maybe it was the bargaining tool used to get Alex Ross back drawing for DC (the Justice series is pretty cool, btw).


anyways, i'm thinking up nicknames for the Irredeemable Ant-Man. Peter Parker is "your friendly neighborhood Spider-man," "Spidey," "Webhead," and "Tiger" to at least one person. so what would they call Eric?


The Red Menace?

Ant-Miscreant?

The Green Mountain (reference to Vermont) Marauder?

Bugsy?

Ol' Six-Arms?

 

[Dread]

goes without saying. i wish that marvel were doing well enough for this not to be the case. ideally, i want Marvel to put out a new Marvel Comics Presents book of higher quality. it would be the perfect place for the continuation of an Irredeemable Ant-man's tales.

I believe Marvel is trying to crank out another MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS next year. The problem I see is that anthologies haven't done very well. SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED and X-MEN UNLIMITED always had sales issues, that is why both are done after 2 years. And AMAZING FANTASY started to evolve into that role, introducing new characters or sometimes spotlightings ones that couldn't sell elsewhere, and it tanked. Marvel would need to find some way of getting fans jazzed about MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS, especially since it would naturally showcase new talent and/or C list characters. In the 90's they did it by devoting "lead in" stories to major characters, mostly Wolverine (MCP was his "unofficial" second solo back in the 90's).

And to be fair, Kirkman's last ongoing, MARVEL TEAM-UP, was tanking below the Top 100 for quite a while but Marvel still kept it around for issue #25 so he could finish proper. It was selling below the Top 100 for at least it's last 7 months.

i like how Hester drew Eric as a little less polished this time around. he really looks like he just went through hell. i'm still don't know if any of what just happened has gotten to him yet. Peter Parker would be showing signs of being hurt or depressed by now. Eric just sort of brushs it off after Chris' mom tells him that he should have been the one to die. i think Eric was more hurt at Veronica telling him that she was going back home and that there was nothing here for her. does he really like her or does he just want to get in her pants? i can't tell. and i can't tell if he's truly broken up about Chris' death. was he talking to the gravestone out of guilt? *shrugs*

Possibly. I did get the sense that Eric did genuinely feel bad about Chris, but not bad enough to let that interfere with his infatuation with Veronica, from continuing to lie about the fake affair he "invented" for Chris to all but exploiting her grief and the surroundings to get to 2nd base with her. Like I have said before, I see Eric as being selfish more than anything; he's not evil and he's not emotionless, but his first concern is what is good for himself. What is in it for Eric O'Grady. He may feel bad about Chris, but I'm not sure I'd say he's guilt ridden about it, and if so, not for long. He probably may figure, "at least I got out of it alive, and now I got this great suit". And Hester is good.

i do appreciate that he's confident. after last issue, i figured that he was going to be self-doubting as well as cowardly. but he seems to have no problem jumping into action; into the middle of the yancy street fight in choosing sides and into the domestic dispute this issue. this ant-man gig is probably a lot like how he imagined the life of a SHIELD agent would be. but he's definately not taking this as seriously as he should. i can already see Mitch putting a serious hurt on him as i expect that's who is wearing the other Ant-Man costume on the cover to issue #5. it's funny that they were going to choose Mitch to be the new Ant-Man in a way. he's probably been one of Eric's biggest influences and is responsible for he and Chris being at Pym's lab in the first place. this makes the grudge between he and Eric even more personal; the "villain" being somewhat responsible for the creation of the "hero."

Yeah, it does seem that Mitch is the OTHER Ant-Man on the cover of issue #5, but it could also be Pym as wouldn't Mitch be missing half his face?

I liked the Mitch reveal because, again, the hook of this series is that they took expectations for the type of person who typically "inheriates" a superhero legacy, and turned them on their ear. Eric's a jerk. He's a selfish jerk who was a bit repressed on oppurtunity and now power has fallen into his lap. And he fights some bad guys, but looks out for #1 first. He's not the type of guy most people would give a super-suit to and that is exactly the point.

reminds me of that movie Hollow Man. Kevin Bacon's character is an egocentric prick but basically a decent guy until he gains the power of invisibility. that's when his darkside comes out. Eric's as scuzzy as Bacon's character as well, although i'd hope that he'd be above rape.

So far he's not above being a peeping tom. You can go to jail for what he's doing, basically. And he didn't care about "getting with" the girlfriend of his dead friend who he lied to about an affair...on his friend's grave. That's not evil, but it is "superdickery" (if you know the website).

or doesn't work. it takes a while to get people to accept something "new." it's jumping the gun but i really wish that Ant-Man was part of a team. i think he needs to play off of someone else. i think this technique helped the Hood out over in Beyond. he was similarly self-serving and irresponsible. but his older brother relationship with Gravity humanized him.

Tell me about it. I can't count how many people dismissed Gravity before they have him a chance because they thought he's "just Invincible Lite", which as someone who loves INVINCIBLE, is simply untrue and unfair. Of course, the Hood has been in limbo for a good 3-4 years before BEYOND!, so there's that too. Any character who can't sustain an ongoing long either dies or goes to a team; I hope Eric doesn't die but it may be inevitable that he lands on a team somewhere. He's not going to make any friends. Unless he's with Maria Hill or Tony Stark, who this year could TEACH "superdickery" lessons. I mean, a guy who's willing to clone friends as soldiers getting ticked at a womanizer is a bit hypocritical. I could imagine Eric going, "at least I'm not drunk in this thing. Today."

that's the truth but i always think of it from the angle that Freedom Ring would have fit perfectly into one of my dream team lineups. why? because he's the exact opposite of Eric (immediately wanting to help others) and new enough to alleviate Ant-Man of being the only new guy. Curtis just needed fleshing out and less focus on his sexuality, imo. there was nothing wrong with his powers & his costume was easily altered. i just think he brought more to the table than Crusader; who already had shape-shifting abilities. oh well. too late. and yeah his costume was pretty lame but, then again, it was designed by a dorky guy.

You have a point there, I just didn't care for Freedom Ring much. Maybe timing him with Magician, who had pretty much the exact power in Ultimate X-Men, wasn't too hot. Yeah, Ant-Man III would need some other rookies around so he wouldn't get the "high and mighty" speach every page.

 

[Muze]

And to be fair, Kirkman's last ongoing, MARVEL TEAM-UP, was tanking below the Top 100 for quite a while but Marvel still kept it around for issue #25 so he could finish proper. It was selling below the Top 100 for at least it's last 7 months.

i think some of the problem was that Kirkman was focusing on his new characters when the title was Marvel Team-Up. i don't think there was any problem with the stories (art could have been better in places). it was just the wrong title to be telling those stories in, since people were expecting more of Spider-man and Wolverine fighting the villain du jour.

I see Eric as being selfish more than anything; he's not evil and he's not emotionless, but his first concern is what is good for himself. What is in it for Eric O'Grady. He may feel bad about Chris, but I'm not sure I'd say he's guilt ridden about it, and if so, not for long. He probably may figure, "at least I got out of it alive, and now I got this great suit". And Hester is good.

in this case, it's probably in his best interests that he is so selfish. it's what allowed him to survive. it also makes for a better story than him just stealing the costume from Pym's lab and becoming a fugitive. i like it when powers come with a price.

Yeah, it does seem that Mitch is the OTHER Ant-Man on the cover of issue #5, but it could also be Pym as wouldn't Mitch be missing half his face?

not neccessarily. the fight could be taking place before the disfigurement. we've only seen half-faced Mitch in the present. Pym told him about the spare suit in the past.

I liked the Mitch reveal because, again, the hook of this series is that they took expectations for the type of person who typically "inheriates" a superhero legacy, and turned them on their ear. Eric's a jerk. He's a selfish jerk who was a bit repressed on oppurtunity and now power has fallen into his lap. And he fights some bad guys, but looks out for #1 first. He's not the type of guy most people would give a super-suit to and that is exactly the point.

true dat. anyways, i'm really liking Mitch as a part of Ant-Man's rogue's gallery. he's got a fairly original motive. if he ever becomes a full-blown villain he'll be even more unique; a guy slowly driven to the darkside by a "hero." i like how Kirkman had him be such a bad@$$ in Marvel Team-Up against Iron Maniac. great set-up now that he's Ant-Man's hunter.

So far he's not above being a peeping tom. You can go to jail for what he's doing, basically. And he didn't care about "getting with" the girlfriend of his dead friend who he lied to about an affair...on his friend's grave. That's not evil, but it is "superdickery" (if you know the website).

his middle name is superdickery, i believe. Eric Superdickery O'Grady, esquire.

Tell me about it. I can't count how many people dismissed Gravity before they have him a chance because they thought he's "just Invincible Lite", which as someone who loves INVINCIBLE, is simply untrue and unfair. Of course, the Hood has been in limbo for a good 3-4 years before BEYOND!, so there's that too. Any character who can't sustain an ongoing long either dies or goes to a team; I hope Eric doesn't die but it may be inevitable that he lands on a team somewhere.

wouldn't bother me. i'm actually of the opinion that most new characters should start on a team and not attempt a solo career until they become popular. with the registration act being in place, it's a little easier to introduce a character this way.

He's not going to make any friends.

yeah, that actually bothers me about the character. he's very hard to craft a team around because of his social hangups. who would want this guy watching their back?

Unless he's with Maria Hill or Tony Stark, who this year could TEACH "superdickery" lessons. I mean, a guy who's willing to clone friends as soldiers getting ticked at a womanizer is a bit hypocritical. I could imagine Eric going, "at least I'm not drunk in this thing. Today."

yeah but neither character is above hypocrisy. Maria would probably step on him and deny his affiliation with SHIELD. and Eric's exactly who Tony wants to get rid of with the SRA. i think it's somewhat ironic given Eric's employment with the very agency that is overseeing the registration.

You have a point there, I just didn't care for Freedom Ring much. Maybe timing him with Magician, who had pretty much the exact power in Ultimate X-Men, wasn't too hot. Yeah, Ant-Man III would need some other rookies around so he wouldn't get the "high and mighty" speach every page.

poor Ant-Man. too old for the New Warriors and too green to join any other team.

 

[Kool-Aid]

Is this book good enough to make me drop "Green Lantern" for? Thoughts, opinions everyone.

Yeah, I buy both and if I had to drop one or the other it'd be Green Lantern. Ant-Man almost f***ed his best friends girlfriend on his best friends grave. Whats there not to love about this book. lol Yeah, the art could be better, but whatever.