The Jesus Christ Appreciation and Worship Thread

[SentinelMind]

bump

 

[webhead9707]

Anyone know of some good genuine rock praise and worship? And if you say Kutless I will kut you.

 

[Marvolo]

Anyone know of some good genuine rock praise and worship? And if you say Kutless I will kut you.

RED (Probably the only Christian rock band I enjoy. And I enjoy them immensely. They don't scream incoherently, cuss or any of that crap.)

Their albums End of Silence and Innocence & Instinct are both good music imo.

Skillet (Not a fan, but God and his grace figures into a lot of their stuff.)

Those are the only ones I know of. Wish I could be of more help.

 

[Apollo]

Although not a typical Christian band like other christian bands, but Surprisingly A lot of U2 songs have many underlining a christian themes. The theme always went over my head when listening to them as a kid, but as I am older now I began to understand a lot of these themes.

Here is a list of 10 of them, I found to be very interesting.

http://www.atu2.com/news/u2-lists-top-10-spiritual-u2-songs.html

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

Theocracy is a great band.

 

[webhead9707]

RED (Probably the only Christian rock band I enjoy. And I enjoy them immensely. They don't scream incoherently, cuss or any of that crap.)

Their albums End of Silence and Innocence & Instinct are both good music imo.

Skillet (Not a fan, but God and his grace figures into a lot of their stuff.)

Those are the only ones I know of. Wish I could be of more help.

I LOVE RED! They're fantastic. He has so much emotion packed in his voice. Skillet is pretty good. I generally think of them as the Christian version of Three Days Grace. Not a huge fan just because they sound super generic and their lyrics leave something to be desired, but they have a few songs I like.

Although not a typical Christian band like other christian bands, but Surprisingly A lot of U2 songs have many underlining a christian themes. The theme always went over my head when listening to them as a kid, but as I am older now I began to understand a lot of these themes.

Here is a list of 10 of them, I found to be very interesting.

http://www.atu2.com/news/u2-lists-top-10-spiritual-u2-songs.html

Oh gosh man U2 is the best. I'm surprised Where The Streets Have No Name isn't on that list.

 

[Destructus86]

Anyone know of some good genuine rock praise and worship? And if you say Kutless I will kut you.

I've been a huge fan of Disciple for years. Their live shows are amazing.

 

[Destructus86]

Just wanted to share this teaching. It is AMAZING. I've listened to the whole thing twice. N.T. Wright is an amazing speaker and a leading theologian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW-7baAbaVM

 

[Warhammer]

Not to butt in, but can you pick a "story" in the bible that's not good for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness?

No. They're all good for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and/or for instruction in righteousness.

 

[Destructus86]

No. They're all good for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and/or for instruction in righteousness.

The trick is to make sure we read them with historical/cultural context in mind. That's something we in western (specifically America) culture tend to forget. A lot.

 

[Destructus86]

Okay, I see that as being more than just a story book. To be honest, what pulled me into the bible and understanding its veracity was the fact that it told the future in advance without equivocation or error. I see it as literally writing history's future.

True that. American culture doesn't really have a clue as far as the sacredness of blood covenants in the Middle Eastern parts of the world are concerned.

It's why prophecy teachers are so big in America. We've created our own doctrine and gospel. One that just happens to be pro-American flag waving and supports our own cultural biases.

 

[Warhammer]

The trick is to make sure we read them with historical/cultural context in mind. That's something we in western (specifically America) culture tend to forget. A lot.

I agree 100%. I said the same a page back.

 

[webhead9707]

I've been a huge fan of Disciple for years. Their live shows are amazing.

Ahh yeah Disciple is pretty good. I really like Beautiful.

 

[Destructus86]

I agree 100%. I said the same a page back.

One encourging thing I wanted to add is there has been a dramatic increase in the interest of theology with newer Christians...by that I mean the next generation. There has been a decrease in western views of the scripture (zionism, prophecy obsession in particular) and just a deeper view of the scripture from those contexts we both mentioned. That's a sign that Christianity is starting to get back on track with a better understanding of how the scripture is meant to be read. It gives me hope for the future to see that.

 

[SentinelMind]

John 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[rodhulk]

One encourging thing I wanted to add is there has been a dramatic increase in the interest of theology with newer Christians...by that I mean the next generation. There has been a decrease in western views of the scripture (zionism, prophecy obsession in particular) and just a deeper view of the scripture from those contexts we both mentioned. That's a sign that Christianity is starting to get back on track with a better understanding of how the scripture is meant to be read. It gives me hope for the future to see that.

I'm actually a big believer in biblical Zionism and think this is a very important theology for Christians. It is through Israel that the Jesus came to the world (twofold message here) and it is also through Israel that Jesus will come back to the world and it is actually through Israel (or because of) Israel that the very resurrection and rapture will occur, all spiritual matters that affect Christians.

 

[Destructus86]

I'm actually a big believer in biblical Zionism and think this is a very important theology for Christians. It is through Israel that the Jesus came to the world (twofold message here) and it is also through Israel that Jesus will come back to the world and it is actually through Israel (or because of) Israel that the very resurrection and rapture will occur, all spiritual matters that affect Christians.

Yes and no. God promised Abraham that he would bless the world through Abraham's seed...however, the people were only the method...Jesus was the fullfillment of the promise. Israel rejected the covnenant they had with God and lost their "rights" as if were. All that changed when Jesus came into the world though. Now there is no difference between gentile and jew, all must receive Christ in order to be saved.

What Zionism teaches is that God has a second salvation plan just for the jews which is utter blasphemy and anyone who believes that should repent right away. Galatians actually speaks pretty plainly on this to make sure no one is confused (and yet we still are)

Gal 3:16
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.

Meaning that the promise is Christ...not Israel. They were merely chosen as a method of bringing Christ into the world. We are all one body now.

There is no rapture. This is a rather new doctrine that was created and really has no biblical support. Especially if one believes in a pre-trib rapture which absolutely has no support in the slightest. And honestly...if you look at the scriptures and really study them...the rapture theology falls apart pretty easily. This is why most leading theologians dismiss the idea of the rapture. A big part of how this idea was created was due to how we in "modern" culture view the Bible. Often times the language was old testament apocalytpic language which people in that time would have easily understood as symbolic. But in our modern culture we have put an emphasis on literalism, which was never meant to be the case.

If you would like to speak more indepth on the rapture I would love to talk with you in private message. Please feel free to bring up any scripture you like that supports your position and we will look at it together from our different perspectives.

 

[Destructus86]

John 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

I love this verse.

The irony is that we just don't focus on this enough. The idea of this invisible war happening between heaven and hell was an idea created during the middle ages with the catholic church. Before that time the idea was not part of the Christian belief. Unfortunately, after we broke from the catholic church we took many of these ideas along with us and have not been able to escape it.

http://glory2godforallthings.com/2013/11/12/n-t-wright-on-hell/

 

[Destructus86]

Here is a FANTASTIC video question time with N.T. Wright. Simply awesome and a great learning experience. I encourage everyone to check it out and be blessed by this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sCoF4uNLWQ

 

[The Gaige]

 

[Apollo]

Like

 

[rodhulk]

Yes and no. God promised Abraham that he would bless the world through Abraham's seed...however, the people were only the method...Jesus was the fullfillment of the promise. Israel rejected the covnenant they had with God and lost their "rights" as if were. All that changed when Jesus came into the world though. Now there is no difference between gentile and jew, all must receive Christ in order to be saved.

What Zionism teaches is that God has a second salvation plan just for the jews which is utter blasphemy and anyone who believes that should repent right away. Galatians actually speaks pretty plainly on this to make sure no one is confused (and yet we still are)

Gal 3:16
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.

Meaning that the promise is Christ...not Israel. They were merely chosen as a method of bringing Christ into the world. We are all one body now.

There is no rapture. This is a rather new doctrine that was created and really has no biblical support. Especially if one believes in a pre-trib rapture which absolutely has no support in the slightest. And honestly...if you look at the scriptures and really study them...the rapture theology falls apart pretty easily. This is why most leading theologians dismiss the idea of the rapture. A big part of how this idea was created was due to how we in "modern" culture view the Bible. Often times the language was old testament apocalytpic language which people in that time would have easily understood as symbolic. But in our modern culture we have put an emphasis on literalism, which was never meant to be the case.

If you would like to speak more indepth on the rapture I would love to talk with you in private message. Please feel free to bring up any scripture you like that supports your position and we will look at it together from our different perspectives.

Not all Biblical Zionists accept dual covenant theology which is what I think you were referring to. Many, myself included, accept Jesus as the only way for salvation for all people. Dual covenant theology is of the fallen one, an absolute horrible doctrine in the Church.

Dual covenant theology is of the devil. He likes to do the opposite of God. Just as God chose Isaac, the devil chose Ishmael. And just as God chose the Jew first for salvation (but the Gentile equally), the devil chose the Gentile first.

As per the literalism and this being only a modern trend. Absolutely not! Just look at all the prophecies Jesus fulfilled in his first coming, they were all "literally" fulfilled, even riding the donkey into Jerusalem, even healing the blind and sick. Even the prophecy of the virgin birth with the "root out of dry ground." Not just that but even the idea that Jesus would die but would still have his days extended - and this, too, happened with Jesus' resurrection and teaching a little bit longer on earth. These were all prophecies of the Old Testament but could have been seen as symbolic or figurative for something else. But everything was literally fulfilled. Because of this, I expect the literal fulfillment of Jesus' second coming and the various prophecies concerning that to be literal also.

The Bible does speak of Jesus as one person coming through the line of the Jews, from Abraham through David to his eventual birth. This as being the seed that would bless the world, that being the salvation for mankind, the main goal of the New Testament (but not the only goal -example, the New Testament teaches that the Jews are still God's people, but they, too, need Jesus). However and very importantly, this is not all that Israel was to be known for, the seed being Jesus. In fact and before we move on, there were actually three different "seeds" or "offspring" or "descendants" that were promised to Abraham when one reads the scriptures clearly. The first is what we just touched on, the "seed" or "offspring" meaning Jesus alone but secondly, there is also at least one scripture that mentions, through Israel, many, many descendants. Israel would be made into a great nation and the only way that can happen is to have "many descendants." Thirdly, scripture also tells us that Abraham would be the father of many nations and again, there would be many, many descendants.

And yes, we are all one body now, spiritually speaking that is. But we still have individual "roles" if you're familiar with the scripture. Men and women still have different roles in the body of Christ (think husband and wife, for example) just as Jews and Gentiles can/do have different roles. Of course, much is the same in our roles, whether it be man and woman or Jew and Gentile, but there are some unique things in this, too, in the individual roles that is. A Jew, for example, may be called home to Israel (prophecy said God would bring them back to Israel - not necessarily all perhaps, but a good amount of them anyway), a Gentile most likely wouldn't have that call.

Now to Israel.

Israel was chosen to be a nation that would attract people to God. They were to show sights and signs that would indicate their God is the true God. They were to be the means by which God would deal with the world, this being not only the Messiah (Jesus) but also the covenants, the very Bible that we read, etc..... Israel was to be the means that God would bring everything into the world. For example, Romans talks about how the Israeli rejection of Jesus brought reconciliation to the world and that their acceptance of Jesus will be life from the dead, the very resurrection and Jesus' return. Jesus said he would not return until Israel accepts him and scripture does indeed say that the Jews will accept him, especially in Romans 11. Everything the Church hopes for relies on Israel pretty much. Jesus is the one that will do the action for us, he is ultimately our hope, please don't misunderstand my words, but he will do it through Israel's actions.

Israel also proves to the Church that God is faithful. This is because God has made some unconditional covenants and promises to Israel and their forefathers, that being Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (even David I can throw in there). These promises reveal that Israel as a nation is forever before God and prophecy went as far as saying that one day, Israel would become a nation and will never cease being a nation and the Jews would never be driven out of the land of Israel ever again. I believe this everlasting Israel started back in 1948. Even though Israel as a nation doesn't believe in Jesus yet, they will as scripture promises and the Bible in prophecy did actually say God would bring Israel back before he causes them to be spiritually cleansed and forgiven of their sin. The individual prophecies concerning Israel's restoration beginning from back in 1948 are too overwhelming to ignore and give credit to outside sources. The Bible even talks about people of the past giving credit to outside sources when God was doing it all along. With this and in my belief, all credit for Israel is to God. Amen!

The Bible declares that if God were not really with Israel today, then it would be impossible for Israel to be a nation today as they would still be under the punishment of not having a land and nation. The only reason that Israel was to become a nation was if God was with them and caused it to happen. The Hebrew Old Covenant scriptures are so clear on this. Because of God's awesome nature of keeping to his words, Israel being a nation today proves that we as Christians can also know that God will remain true to his words concerning us also. Praise God!

Jesus will also be the Messiah of Israel as that is where scripture declares he will reign from (on David's throne) in Jerusalem when he returns. And "he" will be the one that will restore the kingdom to Israel completely upon his return and rescue Israel from a terrible war. He will cause Israel to be the capital of the world. As you can see through my understanding, even though they don't know it yet as a nation, Israel's hope is in Jesus! So as you said, Jesus is the promise, but more than just in a spiritual salvation sense. He is also the promise to Israel and the rest of the world when he sets up his righteous kingdom throughout the earth and the kingdom of Israel that he will establish as the international capital.

I can provide a better scriptural breakdown of all my points if needed.

 

[Destructus86]

Just as a quite note. Romans 11 has nothing to do with modern Israel. It's historical speaking to the Jews of that time.


Now...as for Israel.

Israel’s return from banishment (captivity) was always based on repentance. Israel went
into captivity because of disobedience; Israel would be restored based on obedience.
1. “So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the
curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the
Lord your God has banished you,​

and you return to the Lord your God and obey
Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you
and your sons, then the Lord your God will restore you from captivity, and have
compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord
your God has scattered you. then the Lord your God will restore you from captivity,
and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where
the Lord your God has scattered you. If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth,
from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back.
The Lord your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and
you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your
fathers. Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your
descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so
that you may live.” (Deut. 30:1–6).

2. The return of Israel in 1948 does not meet these conditions: “It remains to put
the divine plumbline to the house of Israel claiming Palestine today. Has she
met the biblical conditions for restoration? . . . To put it bluntly, she has no​

biblical right to the covenant land. She has never recognized the Messiah God
sent, let alone mourned over his wounding. Though many in Israel admit to
Jesus’ greatness as a Jewish teacher, they adamantly reject him as Messiah.
They see him as but one of several prominent pseudo-messiahs.”
​

3. Compare the condition of Israel’s return to that of the return under Cyrus:
“Then Nehemiah, who was the governor, and Ezra the priest and scribe, and
the Levites who taught the people said to all the people, ‘This day is holy to
the Lord your God; do not mourn or weep.’ For all the people were weeping
when they heard the words of the law. Then he said to them, ‘Go, eat of the
fat, drink of the sweet, and send portions to him who has nothing prepared; for
this day is holy to our Lord. Do not be grieved, for the joy of the Lord is your
strength.’ So the Levites calmed all the people, saying, ‘Be still, for the day is
holy; do not be grieved.’ All the people went away to eat, to drink, to send
portions and to celebrate a great festival, because they understood the words
which had been made known to them” (Neh. 8:9–12).
​

C. Many of these OT prophecies were fulfilled to “the house of Israel” (2:14, 22, 36) in the
The New Testament says nothing about there being a need to fulfill the land promises. There is no discussion about a future return to the land. The physical land of Israel has no role to play in the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant since the coming of Christ. It's not surprising therefore that Jewish Christians of the first-century saw nothing covenantally askew with selling their land:

For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales, and lay them at the apostles feet; and they would be distributed to each, as any had need (Acts 4:34-35).​

Notice that the Bible does not say that they sold their possessions or "their goods," as dispensational oriented Bible Knowledge Commentary has it. They sold their land and houses. Jesus had told them earlier that the temple would be destroyed and Jerusalem judged within a generation (Matt. 24:1-34). Jesus is the focal point of history not dirt (land), stone (temple) (John 2:19; 3:20-24; Eph. 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:4-8), or blood (race of people) (John 1:12-13; 1 Pet. 2:9-10). Nothing in the New Testament is said about a return to the land or a rebuilding of the temple. The New Testament only describes the destruction of the temple (Matt. 23:38; 24:2) and indifference to the land (Matt. 28:18-20; Acts 8:1).

 

[Destructus86]

I do want to add one more thing...Matthew 24 has already been fullfilled. It was fullfilled in ancient times.

Also, I recommend checking out this debate. Gary pretty much covers why Israel becoming a nation is not only not in the bible...it's not a sign and he proves it without a shadow of doubt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nfdTJNnuOo

 

[rodhulk]

Romans 11 has everything to do with modern Israel. The 'all Israel will be saved" from Romans 11:26 has yet to see the light of day so it has nothing to do with the Israelites of the day.

I'll go back to what I said about Israel being a nation today, while you did provide a reason why you think Israel couldn't be a nation today, you didn't provide a reason why they are a nation today. According to that Deuteronomy scripture you used, the Jews should not be in the land and especially should not be a Jewish nation under Jewish control. There is nothing in scripture that supports this unless you take my view that I will present with a few scriptures - scripture being our final word.

It is true that the Jews won't receive what scripture (your Deuteronomy reference) had said of them while in disobedience and believe it or not, despite Israel being a current nation and this being of God, they haven't actually yet received the full blessings of God and the promised land that is said they would receive when they are obedient. They do not occupy all the land that God promised them, they are not living in peace, they do not have their king/Messiah (Jesus) ruling on David's throne, etc.... Read on as to why the Jews are back in Israel and this being of God because aside from this, as I said before, it is scripturally impossible for Israel to be a Jewish nation today.

1) Scripture mentions that the Jews would go back to their land while still in disobedience. To understand this is to understand that God works in phases. The return of the Jewish people from Babylon came in three phases. See Ezra 1-2, Ezra 7-8, and Nehemiah 2. The second return of the Jewish return to the land was also prophesied to come in phases and two at that. The first phase would be that the Jews would be re-gathered for judgement and tribulation and the second phase would be for national salvation and restoration at Jesus' second coming and this second phase would be where the Jews become obedient to God and receive the blessings of your Deuteronomy scripture. Please read on. Isaiah 11:11-12 mentions the Jews being re-gathered a second time and this re-gathering would be from all over the world. This "second time" and "all over the world" only has happened once to Israel and that only began in 1948. Ezekiel 37:1-14 tells about Israel coming to life but in phases. In verses 11-12, it is mentioned that the bones that came to life in verses 9-10 is the house of Israel but in verse 8, there is no breath in them. That would be spirit. They are back as a nation but they are not 'spiritual" at that moment, exactly as Israel is today as they have not accepted Jesus yet. But in verse 14, God puts the spirit in them. This helps make it clear that Israel would be gathered first but not be spiritual. That is the next part that I believe scripture informs us of, that Israel will some day get the spirit (breath) breathed into them from God, just as God promised such as in Ezekiel 37:13-14. Isn't this remarkable as it shows you that Israel today is in fact all God's doing? But it gets even better. Ezekiel 22:17-22 tells us that Israel is gathered for judgement in Jerusalem. This judgment and tribulation is finally realized in Zechariah 14:1-4 where before Jesus returns to Israel at the Mount Of Olives, Jerusalem (probably from back at the Ezekiel 22:17-22 scripture) goes through a very bad war and Zechariah 13:8-9 tells us that two thirds of the Jews are killed but one third makes it through the fire and then and only then do Israel become God's people - and ALL ISRAEL BE SAVED as per Romans 11:26.

2) Haggai 2:6-9 mentions that the second return of the Jews would be greater than the first. This wasn't the case with Cyrus! But it was most definitely the case in 1948. How is 1948 the definite fulfillment? Isaiah 11:11-12 mentions that the Jews would return not only a second time but it would be from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH - that's the whole planet - and the only time this was possible and has happened was in 1948.

3) Isaiah 66:7-8 mentions that Israel would become a nation in one day and that the birth pains would come after they became a nation. This is literal from 1948 on may 14. A British mandate expired and the Jews got the land in a single day. Even the USA acknowledged Israel in a single day. As per the birth pains afterwards, Israel becoming a nation was not because of a war but it actually caused a war. You see, hours after Israel became a nation, they were attacked by several countries. The birth pains truly came afterwards. This was not the case under Cyrus. While it is said they were allowed back in the land and perhaps in a day in the time of Cyrus, Isaiah not only mentions land in it's prophecy but also a nation. The Jews did not become a nation under Cyrus. The land was still under foreign control. Even in Acts 1:6 Jesus' apostles were asking Jesus if he was going to restore the kingdom to Israel meaning the Jews were living in the land but they were not a nation in the land. But perhaps more importantly, there were no birth pains after the Jews were allowed back in the land under Cyrus. In fact, things even got better afterwards when they were even allowed to build another temple under Cyrus. This is not birth pains. Truly the birth pains came afterwards and only in 1948.

4) Why Israel? I gave you a list of reasons why in my original post above. Even if for no other reason than for God to keep his promise to Israel's forefathers/ancestors, Israel would have to be a nation at some point in time (which again, I believe started back in 1948) and Israel would have to exist for everlasting (see Deuteronomy 4:30-31 - notice it even mentions the latter days in verse 30 and see Psalm 105:8-11 where it mentions three Israeli ancestors by name - Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - this is the Abrahamic Covenant - and notice Israel is for everlasting). God performs things through the Jews - see Romans 9:4. This way he makes his name known (such as in Ezekiel 36:22) and we can know that the God of Israel (when things are done through the Jews) is the true God. Jesus will also need a place to rule from and this worldwide rule will be out of Jerusalem (Israel) - see Zechariah 14:16-19. There's so much more I'm sure I could write here as to why Israel is important.

5) Matthew 24 has not been fulfilled. The world did not see Jesus and the angels in the sky on the clouds (verse 30). There wasn't a worldwide gathering of Christians done by angels (which is often referred to as the rapture (verse 31). The Bible said it would be AFTER these days that Jesus returns (verse 29). But the days mentioned in Matthew 24 such as war and rumors of war, etc... are still going on and always have. But they were to have ended as per Matthew 24:29.

I'll check out the video when I have a bit more time but you can let me know of this supposed "proof' against modern Israel although I would hope that perhaps I have answered that here already - if it be God's will!