The Jesus Christ Appreciation and Worship Thread - Part 1

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]462479[/split]

 

[SentinelMind]

I noticed we have an athiest thread, but no thread to worship and praise Jesus Christ, only avenue for our salvation. I'd like to make this thread to dedication for Christians to speak about what Christ has done for them, share stories, post links to scripture, articles...anything to uplift the name of Jesus.

This is not meant to be a debate thread, but instead a Christ worship thread.

Thank you, and enjoy.

[YT]?v=CoxopsRSfdU[/YT]


Romans 5:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[Alex_Spider]

A civilization without God is prone to violence and depravity.The stories of Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah taught us that much.Our civilization is already lurching towards those ends.But this not supposed to be a debate thread,so I'll just leave it at that.

Fair enough.

 

[Destructus86]

I've been doing a lot of studying of the Holy Scriptures. Re-evaluating my beliefs. It's really brought me closer to God. I grew up in a Christian home that was VERY into end times prophecy (Pre-Trib) so I constantly heard it and something about it never really felt "right" The more I researched it, the more the belief would fall apart. That's when I decided to start comparing the English to the original translation and it's been such an eye opener.

It seems that a lot of what western Christianity believes was directly inspired by the Catholic church. When Christians split off from the catholic church we took a lot of those beliefs with us and still do to this day.

Once I started stripping away those beliefs that we cling to in western Christianity I started to realize that I don't really consider myself a "Western Christian" anymore...I wanted to get back to the original meanings of scripture and it's really been such a huge gift to my spiritual life/walk with God.

 

[Destructus86]

Good for you D86.

Personally I have come to one conclusion: As believers we all learn in part and must humble ourselves to the point of realizing that no one person or denomination has all the answers. I think God did this on purpose too.

A careful reading of 1 & 2 Thessalonians will also shed light on the pre-tribbers' beliefs. However, when read in contrast to what Jesus Himself said about tribulation and persecution versus living life as a believer, 1 & 2 Thessalonians merely shows Christians that they will NOT be placed in the same place and time period as when God's Wrath is poured out, but while on Earth believers will suffer tribulation and persecution for their beliefs. As they hated Jesus, so too will they hate believers in Jesus. They will also manifest that hatred with persecution and tribulation, but it is NOT from God Himself. The persecution of Job for being a believer is a great eye-opener as well.

Ah yes...Thessalonians. I bet Paul is shaking his head right now seeing how people have completely misunderstood his writings nowadays.

 

[rodhulk]

Good for you D86.

Personally I have come to one conclusion: As believers we all learn in part and must humble ourselves to the point of realizing that no one person or denomination has all the answers. I think God did this on purpose too.

A careful reading of 1 & 2 Thessalonians will also shed light on the pre-tribbers' beliefs. However, when read in contrast to what Jesus Himself said about tribulation and persecution versus living life as a believer, 1 & 2 Thessalonians merely shows Christians that they will NOT be placed in the same place and time period as when God's Wrath is poured out, but while on Earth believers will suffer tribulation and persecution for their beliefs. As they hated Jesus, so too will they hate believers in Jesus. They will also manifest that hatred with persecution and tribulation, but it is NOT from God Himself. The persecution of Job for being a believer is a great eye-opener as well.

Actually, I believe Christians can be on earth when God pours out his wrath. Noah was. He was simply taken through it. And great example about Job. God allowed Satan to do what he did. It was not God himself. And Christians can indeed suffer persecution and tribulation. Jesus even prayed that we would not be taken out of the earth (such as the false pre-trib rapture teaching) but protected (John 17:15).

 

[random_havoc]

I've taken Bible college and seminary classes on eschatology (end times) and I still barely have an opinion on it. There are too many brilliant men that have agreed with each of the different perspectives.

 

[Enriquespy]

Man, I really need some strength from Christ nowadays.

 

[rodhulk]

Man, I really need some strength from Christ nowadays.

Christ will always be there for you. Never forget that.

Psalm 55:22 and 1 Peter 5:7 tells us to cast our burdens to the Lord as he cares for us and will sustain us.

Proverbs 3:5-6 tells us not to lean on our own understanding but to trust the Lord as he'll direct our paths. I liken this scripture to saying that God is like a cake. Each individual ingredient may taste bad but when all mixed together, it makes a delicious tasting cake. In a similar way, individual things that happen to a Christian may not make sense and actually seem bad but in the end, everything ends up being good as God is only good.

Romans 5:3-4 actually tells us to rejoice in our problems because God will use them to our benefit. Think of that cake example above, what may seem bad at first could turn out to be something good later on even if we don't see it immediately.

1 Corinthians 10:13 tells us we will not be tempted beyond what we can bear/endure. God will provide for us so if things are really bad, ask yourself if you're really being tempted beyond what you can bear. Think of people who are missing limbs (providing you are not). Think of people in some of the worst countries to live in (again, providing you are not). Are these people not worse off than you? Of course, I don't know your situation but I hope this message helps. I'll keep you in my prayers.

 

[Ash J. Williams]

Actually, I believe Christians can be on earth when God pours out his wrath. Noah was. He was simply taken through it. And great example about Job. God allowed Satan to do what he did. It was not God himself. And Christians can indeed suffer persecution and tribulation. Jesus even prayed that we would not be taken out of the earth (such as the false pre-trib rapture teaching) but protected (John 17:15).

Yeah, I agree with you. I don't see why Christians would be exempt from the tribulation, especially since God's Word says fear not, and know that He is God. We believe in and follow Jesus, but in regards to the tribulation, why would that make us special apart from non-Christians? As far as I know, God doesn't have favorites.

 

[Warhammer]

How did the idea that Christians will be taken into Heaven before the Tribulation become so widespread? I remember when I was a little younger and realized that wasn't actually in the Bible at all, my mind was blown.

 

[Ash J. Williams]

Is that because we are saved from God's wrath? My dad will ask other believers what they're saved from, which they're kind of hesitant to answer. If they answer incorrectly, we will say that we are saved from God's wrath.

 

[Ash J. Williams]

Well, one said we were saved from eternal hell and others have said from sin, so the answers are usually along those lines. We are saved from sin, yes, but sin and disobedience to God results in His wrath being poured out.

 

[Ash J. Williams]

I go to a non-denominational church, but perhaps my way of looking at it could be adjusted. I haven't thought about it much.

 

[Ash J. Williams]

Right. I'm just looking at as sort of an end times perspective when God will say that enough is enough due to humanity's rebellion.

 

[rodhulk]

Considering other scripture that deals specifically with eschatology, I wouldn't base any of my escatological tenets on either the Flood account, or Noah's life more so than to show that the Flood and Noah's Ark were the foreshadowing or typologies of the Wrath of God and the Messiah, Jesus, respectively. Namely, we must "be in Jesus" to escape the Wrath and final curse of the Judge of all the earth.

Just as Adam and Eve were NEVER cursed by Elohim after "the fall," believers will NEVER be cursed by God during the End Times. This specific doctrine is revealed, and sticks out like a sore thumb, throughout the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. In fact, when we read the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis, we find that Elohim only cursed the devil and the ground. He NEVER cursed the man or woman, which means their descendants were also NEVER cursed by Him. The Bible is crystal clear, we all must individually choose to either have the life or the curse from God.

Interestingly, the Word states that He "cursed the ground for mans' sake." If you read the entire "fall" account from Genesis in Light of other passages, you find why the Earth and only certain of mankind were destroyed by the Flood. The ground and the devil had both received God's curse on them. The people that were not pure in their generations, as was Noah and his family alone, were taken in the curse that was on the devil by way of not being direct descendants of Adam and Eve (Please see Genesis chapter 6), and as for the ground of the earth, which included the Garden of Eden by the way, they too were utterly destroyed by God through His curse.

Even so, as we find the Truth in the New Testament, the mercy of Jehovah was extended to those people that perished outside of Noah's Ark during the Genesis Flood so as to allow them, by and through faith in Christ, to enter into God's eternal salvation after making a choice to believe the gospel preached unto them by Jesus (Please see 1 Peter 3:18-20, and 2 Peter 3:9).

To state it simply, my beliefs are that Christians will suffer both persecution and tribulation prior to Jesus' End Time return/the rapture. I have mountains of historical evidence to back up my beliefs, but more importantly, I have my own copy of the Word of God and am smart enough to sit under the teachings of honest men and women that walk humbly before the Most High God and reverence His Word above anything the world can substitute for Jehovah's anointing on their lives.

I can already see how you are in error here just by using the name Jehovah. Jehovah is not the name of God as there was never any "J" in the Hebrew language during the Old Testament times when God's name was revealed. It is impossible that Jehovah is God's name.

What the flood did was show how God deals with sin. Sin brings punishment. This is as true back in Noah's day as it is today. Even if Noah's flood was a foreshadow of God's wrath, that foreshadow shows that God does not "rapture" people out of the earth when wrath takes place. This shows believers will not be cursed during the end times when God pours out his wrath. Rather, people are preserved through it. But this Noah's flood is regarded as God's wrath by many I believe.

God cursed the ground because when God curses somebody, the curse is not on the person who deserves it but the innocent person under them. But it is the person who sinned who is made to look like the bad one or the one who has sinned. For example, in Genesis 9:20-27, Noah cursed Canaan rather than Canaan's father, Ham, who did the sin so that it would make the "father" look bad in how he brought up his son. So Ham, in effect, would be the one that is really the bad one. If the curse was on Ham himself, then it would make Noah look like the bad one, the bad father who raised his some to be bad. Also in 1 Kings 11:11-12, God took out the punishment not on Solomon but on Solomon's son, bacause had the punishment been on Solomon, then it would have reflected bad on David, Solomon's father, who did not do the sin. In the same way, had God cursed Adam, then God would have been made to be the bad father. So, God cursed the ground so that when one sees the pain of all that happens in our earthly lives (about living), we see it because of Adam.

Not just that but by God cursing the ground, as scripture noted, it would affect mankind forever more until the perfect eternal future that God will make new.

By being pure, this did not mean that Noah and his family were the only descendants of Adam & Eve, it meant that Noah was righteous before God, that he walked with God unlike the rest of mankind. See Genesis 6:9.

Finally, as per Jesus preaching the gospel to people who had died during the time of Noah and his building the ark, this is not true at all. Firstly, this would contradict Hebrews 9:27 that says thatman is destined to live only once and then after to face judgement. There is "no second chance." Plus a proper reading of Genesis 6 will show one that at the time of Noah, the fallen angels were taking human women as wives. Jude 6 tells us that some fallen angels are in chains, it is probably these fallen angels from Genesis 6:1-4 who are the angels who left their position and sinned by cohabitating with human women. The greek word "kerusso" is not the greek word for "preaching the gospel." That greek word is eyaggelizo. The greek word "kerusso" means or refers to an official proclamation of an edit. It most likely refers to Christ's proclamation of victory over death, sin, and the power of satan. He was proclaiming this to the fallen angels who are in prison awaiting judgement, to perhaps show them that they and their leader have lost. With this brief intro to the topic, I'll present it more in depth below.


The key to this type of passage is context and scriptural study. It helps to know who is speaking and to whom they were speaking too. It helps to have looked at the original Greek text. And it requires you to let scripture interpret scripture by studying what is being said before and after and to study other related verses. With that said, here you go ...

“What, then did Jesus do on the Saturday between His death and resurrection? Peter tells us that when Jesus was made alive in the spirit realm, He “made proclamation to the spirits now in prison” (3:19). Who are the “spirits” he mentions? Peters says these were spirits of those who were once disobedient in the days of Noah (3:20). In fact, Peter’s language and narrative reflect a common understanding among Jews and early Christians, based on normal reading of Genesis 6:1-4. According to that account, prior to the flood of Noah, fallen angels (demons) sinned gravely by cohabitating with human women. But is there any way we can be sure Peter had this common historical interpretation of Genesis 6 in mind when he wrote 1 Peter 3:19-20? When we compare parallel passages in Jude [Jude 6] and 2 Peter [2 Peter 2:4], we see that is, in fact, in both Peter’s and Jude’s minds. Note the similarities in language and imagery as we compare these passages. So Peter referred to a general tradition likely passed down from the ancient Old Testament Prophets – that because of the nature of their rebellion, these demons have been kept in a special place of imprisonment in the spirit realm, even to this day. There they await future judgment, when they will be cast into the lake of fire, the place originally created for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41). If this expression refers to these fallen angels, what kind of ‘proclamation’ did Jesus make when He passed into this spirit realm? The Greek verb ‘kerysso’ refers to an official pronouncement of an edit. It most likely refers to Christ’s proclamation of victory over death, sin, and the power of Satan.” (Charles Swindoll, Swindoll’s New Testament Insights on James and 1 & 2 Peter, p. 204-206)

“3:19 preached. While in Hades in the Spirit, He ‘preached’ – that is ‘proclaimed’ – His victory over death and hades (Mat 16:18, Lk 4:18, Col 2:15, Re 1:18). Note that ‘hell’ in these verses is the Greek ‘hades’. […] The Greek word for ‘preached’ here is not the word for ‘preached the gospel’ (eyaggelizo) as in 1 Peter 1:12, 25; 4:6, but rather kerusso, which means ‘proclaimed’ (Lk 12:3) or ‘published’ (Lk 8:39). Christ was not giving a second chance, as it were, to those who had died in unbelief, for there is no second chance after death (He 9:27). Rather, He was proclaiming victory of Satan and his hosts. 3:19 spirits. These ‘spirits in prison almost certainly were evil spirits who had sinned in the days of Noah trying to corrupt and control all flesh (Ge 6:1-4, 12). The world ‘spirits’ in the plural, always refers to supernatural beings, or angels when not clearly indicated otherwise (as in 1 Co 14:32 and He 12:23). In support of this meaning, note that there are 30 such occurrences in the New Testament, with only two, as noted above, referring spirits of men. At least 26 of these 30 occurrences refer to evil spirits, which strongly indicates that to be the meaning here. 3:20 days of Noah. It was ‘in the days of Noah’ when this flagrant disobedience of the angels took place, resulting in this severe punishment.” (Henry Morris, The New Defenders Study Bible, p. 1941)

“Those who say that these ‘spirits’ in prison were the spirits of lost sinners in hell to whom Jesus brought the good news of salvation have some real problems to solve. To begin with, Peter referred to people as ‘souls’ and not ‘spirits’ (1 Peter 3:20). In the New Testament, the word spirits is used to describe angels or demons, not human beings, and 1 Peter 3:22 seems to argue for this meaning. Furthermore, nowhere in the Bible are we told that Jesus visited hell. Acts 2:31 states that He went to ‘hades’ (NASB) but ‘hades’ is not hell. The word hades refers to the realm of the unbelieving dead, a temporary place where they await the resurrection. Read Revelation 20:11-15 in the New American Standard Bible or the New International Version and you will see the important distinction. Hell is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is the temporary place. When a Christian dies, he goes to neither place, but to heaven to be with Christ (Phil. 1:20-24). Our Lord yielded His spirit to the Father, died, and at some time between death and resurrection, visited the realm of the dead, where He delivered a message to spirit beings (probably fallen angels; see Jude 6) who were somehow related to the period before the flood. 1 Peter 3:20 makes this clear. The word translated ‘preached’ simply means ‘to announce as a herald, to proclaim.’ It is not the word that means ‘to preach the gospel' that Peter used in 1 Peter 1:12 and 4:6.” (Warren Wiersebe, The Bible Exposition Commentary Ephesians to Revelation, p. 416)

“3:19 ‘made proclamation’. Between Christ’s death and resurrection, His living spirit went to the demon spirits bound in the abyss and proclaimed that, in spite of His death, He had triumphed over them (see notes on Col 2:14-15). ‘spirits now in prison’. This refers to fallen angels (demons) who were permanently bound because of heinous wickedness. The demons who are not so bound resist such a sentence (cf. Lk 8:31). In the end, they will all be sent to the eternal lake of fire (Mt 25:41; Rev 20:10). 3:20 ‘disobedient … in the days of Noah’. Peter further explains that the abyss in inhabited by bound demons who have been there since the time of Noah.” (John MacArthur, The MacArthur Study Bible, p. 1914-1915)

“These were angelic beings, specifically fallen angels, who have been imprisoned until judgment. Christ’s preaching to them following his death was a victory proclamation. This view seems to find a parallel in Jude 6 and 7, where Jude spoke of angels being kept in prison, awaiting their judgment (cf 2:et. 2:4-6). The usage of the word spirit without a qualifying genitive indicates that the term describes angels. Also, angels are spoken of in the context as having been brought into submission by this event (v. 22). […] Some interpreters suggest that Jesus offered no hope of salvation to these spirits. He did not evangelize them but simply proclaimed the victory of his resurrection to them. “ (David Walls and Max Anders, Holman New Testament Commentary I & II Peter, I, II & III John, Jude, p. 62-63)

“A similar idea is that Christ proclaimed his victory to fallen angels, often identified with the ‘sons of God’ of Genesis 6:2, 4 (cf. Job 1:6; 2:1).” (RC Sproul, The Reformation Study Bible, p. 1815)

EDIT: Even if, by chance, this verse, 1 Peter 3:18-20, is talking about the people that perished at the time of Noah, as per the understanding above, it is still not talking about preaching the gospel but rather a proclamation of (most likely) what we already said, his (Jesus') victory over sin, death, and satan. It's interesting to note that while many Bible translations do use the word "preach," some also use the word "proclaim" to show that it is not about preaching the gospel but about a proclamation of something, exactly what the "greek" language implies.

 

[TheDreamMaster]

Everyone, I believe in Christ and in the Bible, but I feel I'm so far off the path these days. I used to feel very blessed but I've gotten away from everything and I just feel like lost. I've got two kids who I want to teach about the Bible, but I can't do that without getting myself right. Can I just ask for some prayers to help me out?

 

[Enriquespy]

Thanks!

 

[Human Torch]

Everyone, I believe in Christ and in the Bible, but I feel I'm so far off the path these days. I used to feel very blessed but I've gotten away from everything and I just feel like lost. I've got two kids who I want to teach about the Bible, but I can't do that without getting myself right. Can I just ask for some prayers to help me out?

Sure thing DM.

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

Of course!

 

[Human Torch]

I've taken Bible college and seminary classes on eschatology (end times) and I still barely have an opinion on it. There are too many brilliant men that have agreed with each of the different perspectives.

Eschatology was never my strong point either,so I'll bow out of the discussion.


It's ironic,when looking at the prophecies concerning Christ,I used to think 'how could the Apostles not realize how many prophecies were coming to pass before their very eyes.',but I think we're just as collectively lost as they were when it comes to our ability to understand End Times prophecy.

 

[DarkSentinel]

Oftentimes we don't recognize prophecies as they unfold. We as humans are still very mundane spiritually.

 

[rodhulk]

Yeah, I agree with you. I don't see why Christians would be exempt from the tribulation, especially since God's Word says fear not, and know that He is God. We believe in and follow Jesus, but in regards to the tribulation, why would that make us special apart from non-Christians? As far as I know, God doesn't have favorites.

Exactly, Ash. We're not exempt. The Bible tells us that Jesus prayed that we not be taken out of the world and elsewhere scripture declares that he who endures to the end shall be saved. The end is not the pre-trib rapture as the tribulation has still yet to take place (which means the end is not yet).

 

[rodhulk]

I do not mix the Hebrew language and English language as a doctrine. The fact you do so does not mean I am in error, it simply means you are a bit more anal retentive about the difference between the J & Y sounds as they relate to the differences between Hebrew and English. I'm good with that.

The following are some passages from the same version of bible you quote in your signature:

Ex. 6:3, And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Ps. 83:18, That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Is. 12:2, Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

Is. 26:4, Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:


One more thing.....

Prior to you knowing about this in your Christian walk rodhulk, did it ever affect the way Elohim thought about you? Do you think Elyon refuses to respond to people that utter a -J- sound instead of a -Y- sound when saying His Name? Have you ever studied out the reason certain vowels sounds were dropped by Jewish Rabbis when coming across His Name in scripture?

A haughty spirit goes before a fall, and pride goes before destruction. Careful sir.

First, are you familiar with 2 Timothy 3:16 that speaks of scripture as being breathed by God and useful for teaching, correcting....? That was the purpose of my response to you. It was very humble but very direct since I felt your message was written in a similar manner. But thanks be to Jehovah, I can apologize if I am wrong about you.

And yes, I used Jehovah above. It may seem a little silly that I said what I said in my previous post about the name "Jehovah," but the idea I was presenting was that it actually wasn't his name. It did not exist at the time. God's name was formed from YHWH. There is no J in there. You see, there is at least one certain group that claims to teach the truth of God's name and they say that Jehovah was it. When it is not. Using Jehovah is not wrong, but to say that it is his "actual" name is wrong. I was wondering if you were of this belief. So your judgement of me is wrong. I suppose I could have asked you in a different way but for the benefit of others reading this, perhaps my explanation was OK after all. God willing, of course, my friend.

As per his name, vowels are left out due to Jewish tradition which instructs Jews to write them this way as a means of demonstrating reverence for his name.

I do want to note that I do not approach you as an enemy in the Lord but as a brother in the Lord. I hope to see you around here more often. I always enjoy the presence of other Christians. Blessings.

EDIT: The version of my Bible that I used for my signature is the NIV and it does not have Jehovah in the verses you mentioned. I suppose there is a similar translation as the NIV that uses Jehovah. But please note and as per above in this message, Jehovah is okay to use.

 

[Destructus86]

Yeah, I agree with you. I don't see why Christians would be exempt from the tribulation, especially since God's Word says fear not, and know that He is God. We believe in and follow Jesus, but in regards to the tribulation, why would that make us special apart from non-Christians? As far as I know, God doesn't have favorites.

It's pretty simple. The rapture was invented so that people could feel like they had an escape from this "horrible" life. From my conversations with many pre-tribbers in particular...their hope is all in escaping. They had this life and want to escape it with as little pain as possible. (again, i've spoken with MANY pre-tribbers who share this belief)

Personally, I believe there is no rapture at all. And there is far more biblical/historical truth to prove it. The Lord is coming to Earth to bring his Kingdom here. (much like it says "On earth as it is in heaven" When Christ returns...the heavens and Earth will be one. A single Kingdom for all time. (it says 1000 years, but since we shouldn't read Revelation literally it actually means for all time, countless,etc...) Most well educated scholars of the word frown upon rapture theories as they are simply not biblical without twisting and shoehorning scriptures.