The Joker's background?

Discussion in 'The Dark Knight' started by Ardent15, Jan 20, 2010.

  1. Rodrigo90

    Rodrigo90 Wink wink ;)

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    Thanks mate :)

    Scarecrow now? :woot:

    OK.

    To begin with, Scarecrow is a villain we can define as evil. Evil through his pure cruel nature. Sympathetic also, maybe?

    He was bullied as kid and rejected by a girl he longed for, executing his revenge by wearing a Scarecrow costume, which resulted in the paralysis of the bully and the death of the girl. Did he feel remorse? NOOO. He enjoyed his actions, putting him on the path of the guy we know today. What he did was out of hatred. The enjoyment of cruelty he must have experienced during and after the accident.

    Its a fact that when the mind goes through strong feelings of guilt, it denies and protects itself of the responsibility, resulting in furthering, perhaps to a lesser extent, of the previous actions committed before. So could Crane have felt so guilty that his mind snapped and he could only continue with the life he now created because he knew he couldn't resume his normal life? NO! He was motivated by anger and hatred. It obviously began with the bullying and rejection, sad for him, but he had no right to do what he did. Perhaps he didn't intend to kill, but he did enjoy the result of his actions and didn't have one ounce of remorse, pure mailice.

    He frightened the guy, causing the car to crash, and enjoyed what happened. It was through his actions. He loved what fear had caused for the people he hated. For the first time, he wasn't the victim, the power of fear had craeted victims for him. He saw the power in it, he saw that through fear, he was a God. The image of the Scarecrow was what people were going to know where the power of their fear was coming from. Enjoying the results of his cruelty by scaring people to death. Yup, Scarecrow is evil alright.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 15, 2011
  2. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    I say again, man, you should make a thread with all of these. I'd even put in a villain picture beside each analysis, with statistics like their first appearance, height, weapons etc.
     
    #127
  3. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

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    And I would send that Scarecrow analysis to Nolan just to see if he gets it right this time.
     
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  4. Rodrigo90

    Rodrigo90 Wink wink ;)

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    I forgot about this lol

    OK...bridge to understanding Riddler.

    To start. There's more to him than just gaining knowledge and proving how smart he is...that's not his goal. It's about, as Charlie Sheen would put it, WINNING. Riddler NEEDS to win, and this is only done by being better and smarter than his opponent.

    In his childhood, he was FORCED to be better and smarter by his father. Edward was scared to death of losing, as he would receive both physical and mental abuse at the hands of his father. The mere thought scared him so much, he would obsess over improving himself, crafting his skill and intellect over virtually every subject, to prepare for any challenge that was thrown at him.

    But when push came to shove...he wasn't as good as he thought. So he resorted to cheating, to deceive his father...to gain the much needed recognition and respect he he craved...and to spare him the pain of losing.

    So what would this do to a kid? He was treat and crafted in the world of adulthood at a young age, by his pushy father. The traits that he learned as a CHILD affected him in his adulthood.
    It's why when we're first introduced to him in the comics, he's already a criminal. Someone like him could never hold down a proper job, or proper relationships.

    His egotism was born out of cheating. His mind was twisted out of cheating. His constant cheating, born out of the desire to constantly win. To prove his worth to his father.

    Cheating to Edward would seem almost like a crime...and criminals, in order to cope, add coal to the fire, to stop the train from stopping.

    Then the joy of winning, the feeling of being better than his father would have ever thought, the false notion that he won all did through his own 'amazing self', propelled him into a life of crime. So at some point in his career, Edward actually became unaware he cheated at all. He committed crimes that didn't force him to cheat to win, never pushing himself...that was until he gained confidence and became the Riddler.

    Why Riddles? Is it because they are all that challenging to figure out...not really. I believe he uses riddles because, while they are a challenge, they are his downfall in the long run. A part of him believes no one will crack them...while at the same time, he hopes they do. Because he himself wants to be solved.

    They act as clues...they always serve for his capture. I feel this is because he wants to be punished when caught out...He wants to be punished for deceiving his father...not being as brilliant as he made out...to receive the mental pain of reliving his fathers abuse for being a loser...all this ties into his obsessions.

    He does it to win, while another part of him seems to do it to lose. He strives to win...but while subconsciously, begs to lose, despite the cheating he does, despite the praise he gives himself.

    I feel sorry for him to be honest. Because deep down, he knows he will never win, he's not that good and he knows he deserves it :(
     
    #129
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2012
  5. cjimene8729

    cjimene8729 AGENT OF CHAOS

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    well thank you then
     
    #130
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  6. Rodrigo90

    Rodrigo90 Wink wink ;)

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    Thinking back Joker again.

    What was the most disturbing aspect that we learned from TDK?
    To me, it was Joker speaking some truth.

    I believe, upon rethinking some things, that Heath's Joker was probably a good natured man once upon a time.

    But could have turned him into a monster?

    Looking at the comics, looking at Heath...looking outside my very window. I believe it was society itself that messed him up inside.

    Joker is supposed to be a man who goes with the flow of the 21st century...
    The world is filled with so much evil and wrong ****, it's easy to notice. To a man like the Joker, it was always the only thing on his mind.

    And Gotham is meant to be the world, all in one city, all the worst things society has to offer.

    So the man who Joker was, gave into the chaos...He probably sat on park benches watching SOME normal people go by, and then wonder, ¨Why are they happy? Why are this people not cracking eachother's heads open and doing eachother up against the wall right in front of everyone? The rest of the world is doing it¨

    Joker was probably a good guy, who was attacked and scarred, and ended giving up on all that was good and sane with society. Thinking that evil was the way society was deep inside, and everybody that was good, were living a lie.

    So he coped and adapted to what he thought the world was, what good was, what rules of law and order were, what was right was...an evil joke.

    He became the ultimate human being of the world he imagined we lived in.
     
    #131
  7. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    So you don't believe the tales about his father or his wife had any truth in them at all?
     
    #132
  8. Rodrigo90

    Rodrigo90 Wink wink ;)

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    It's hard to say. They obviously hold some great significance and importance to him, especially his father.

    Joker doesn't see himself as crazy to society, society is crazy to him, at the moment. He see's himself as the future and true form of what life and society really are about...EVERYTHING is a joke. Madness to him is what he is and where we're all headed. Chaos is the the future, peace and order is a lie that needs to be taken down to unleash his world.

    Now where did those feelings come from though? What made him like that?
    I believe now, as a child, he did witness his father kill his mother...but I don't believe the father scarred his mother or him, that's his own fantasy kicking in. This must have started the ball rolling. He witnessed the first taste of evil in his life and it never left him...he obssesed over it.

    I believe he fell in love and got married. But in his story, he states she left because she didn't like his company, and he tried making her happy the best way he could, by carving his face after hers was by the loan sharks...I think because of his problems, it put strain on the marriage, and she left because she couldn't handle his negativity.

    There's more behind it. But I think, even though he embraces his new lifestyle, he hates his father ruining his once good life. He's thought and thought of his problems, where it all started, how it began...the father.

    He blames others for his issues, for creating him...I believe to an extent, it's true, because he feels and thinks so strongly about everything. His father, his wife, crime, Batman, it all pushed him to breaking point...but he became the Joker.

    But what was the breaking point? Given his fearlessness and eagerness of death and the line - "Whatever doesn't kill you, simply makes you stranger" -
    I think he was attacked while going out looking to die in Gotham, and he made a request to die with a smile on his face, having no joy and never smiling in his life, and thinking it's all one big joke anyway. (This given his killing people by cutting their mouths and his wifes nagging of him being misreable, egging people on to come for him). Any sick thug or crime boss would do that thinking it was funny and happily oblige. I don't think he attempted to kill himself...but would rather die by the society which had ruined his life, people who reminded him of his father - evil and insane.

    And if I think of The Killing Joke upon discovering his face, or Heath's hysteria of falling and disappointment at not dying in TDK, he probably cracked up there, thinking it was funny himself.

    It may be incorrect of me to assume that scenario. But I'm just judging from what I've assessed from his character, the likelyhood of the psychology behind his actions in the movie and the sources from which they potentially came. That's what I deduce.

    Joker himself is the creation of all those little factors.
     
    #133
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  9. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    I think we do get a little glimpse of something with the bits about his father. Particularly the "You remind me of my father...I hated my father" comes off very sincere. Fathers are definitely a big recurring theme in the trilogy, so the fact that the Joker would hate his father definitely makes sense with the punk, anarchist slant they put on the character. He seemed to really have it in for authority figures, so the idea of it stemming from some major daddy issues seems to have some sense of psychological plausibility.

    Now, whether or not the father was actually a violent drunk or just overbearing type with too many rules, etc...hard to say. They keep a lot of him very unknowable, which makes him even more elemental. He's pretty much the Satan of the Batman world. Especially in The Killing Joke and TDK, where he is all about getting people to turn on their beliefs. Tempting people to the dark side, as it were.
     
    #134
  10. thedarkknight98

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    A lot of people suggest that the joker reinvents himself on a daily basis. Quite a nice theory.

    But, I think we can gather from TDK he has had quite an abusive past, either with family or other people, such as his wife.

    In the 1989 Batman movie, the joker has a good back story as a high class mobster from Brooklyn called Jack Napier. Little is said about his childhood, but we know that he had a decent education in Science, art and chemistry in particular. (which he displays in the film)
     
    #135
  11. NosfeRomas

    NosfeRomas Well-Known Member

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    On daily basis ? hmm doesn't sound right. if that was the case then he would change goals too. his main focus was still to crumble the city, destroy Dent and make Batman break his rules. When the Joker reinvents himself in the comics he also changes motivations.

    Giving Joker a backstory is the worst thing you can do to the character. him having decent education or just a thing for chemistry and art is fine but too much backstory takes all the mystery out of the persona of the Joker.
     
    #136
  12. gwynplaine

    gwynplaine L'homme qui rit.

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    Joker's background? Watch "Candy" with Heath Ledger.
     
    #137
  13. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    One of the best things about the Joker in this movie is his past was an enigma. One of his scars stories could be true, or they both could be a pack of lies. We'll never know. That just adds to the creepy factor of him. The unknown can be very scary.
     
    #138
  14. gwynplaine

    gwynplaine L'homme qui rit.

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    Totally agree. And that's the way he first came into the scene in Batman 1. No origins.
     
    #139
  15. GothamAlleys

    GothamAlleys Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, almost every single character came with no origins untill years later. At the time comics werent so character based and stories and characterization as intricate as in latter years, characters just "were".
     
    #140
  16. gwynplaine

    gwynplaine L'homme qui rit.

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    Good point. But I still think it worked really well in the case of this particular character.
     
    #141
  17. BlueLightning

    BlueLightning Caballero de la Luz

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    I like to believe that the story with the wife was mostly true, if only to strengthen the bond with the Killing Joke.
     
    #142
  18. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Not to mention his mysterious background is something played up in the comics. The multiple origin scenario. Nobody knows which one is true. Like the scars stories.
     
    #143
  19. gwynplaine

    gwynplaine L'homme qui rit.

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    :up:
     
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  20. the last son

    the last son Well-Known Member

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    How does no one not know who the joker really is? I mean wouldn't someone see him see the scars and say hey that's whoever from wherever. I mean someone would know who he is. He didn't just live in the sewers his whole life. Childhood friends whatever.
     
    #145
  21. GothamAlleys

    GothamAlleys Well-Known Member

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    Unless he grew up on the streets and lived in street gangs. Such theory and background for Ledger's Joker was presented in one of the post TDK stories

    [​IMG]

    In there he killed his parents when he was a kid and lived on the streets. Such background presents a plausible explanation for having no name and no identity
     
    #146
  22. RustyCage

    RustyCage Come what may..

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    TKJ also created the multiple origin idea: "Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another. If I have to have a past, I prefer it be multiple choice!"

    The book suggests an origin, but in the climax that gets flipped on it's head and the reader is left to wonder if it was all bogus. I find that liberating.

    It's also the most potent summary of just what kind of crazy the Joker really is.
     
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  23. BlueLightning

    BlueLightning Caballero de la Luz

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    I just love that book. The way it mirrors these two characters (The Joker and Batman). I find it very compelling because it presents us the Joker as a human being, irredeemable, but ultimately human.
     
    #148
  24. gwynplaine

    gwynplaine L'homme qui rit.

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    What if he was a demon, or even the devil himself, who just one day materialized into Gotham?:cwink:
    Didn't Nolan say something about him coming out of thin air on that sidewalk or something?
    He also mentioned Loki the trickster, coyotes in Native American mythology I believe etc.
    I love how this character is so mysterious, an enigma open to many different interpretations.
     
    #149
  25. BlueLightning

    BlueLightning Caballero de la Luz

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    Also, I like to believe that he wants it that way. If he had a record of any kind, he made sure that there was no trace for it. "Nothing. No matches on prints, DNA, dental. Clothing is custom, no labels. Nothing in his pockets but knives and lint. No name, no other alias. "
     
    #150

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