The Last of Us The Last Of Us 2

[Marvolo]

I'm watching the play throughs and know they've established reasons for how, but it still doesn't make a lot of logical sense to me within the context of that world. It's just another one of these things that makes it feel removed from the last game. I honestly think a lot of the creative decisions would have been forgivable if this weren't a sequel to TLOU. But it is what it is, I honestly don't know where things go from here if I'm honest for this franchise, if they go anywhere at all.

The best suggestion I've seen to make Abby work better with players was to...

Spoiler

Market the game as a spinoff starring this Abby character. A tragic character that lost her father. Make her seem like a Joel situation Joel lost his daughter and Abby lost her father. She has hazy memories at the beginning of the game of her as a young girl terrified and seeing this scary shadow figure gunning down her father. The first half of the game would be the player building Abby up, getting to know her and the WLF, working to find out what happened to her father, and who killed him. Throughout the game her memories become clearer. And at about the 10 hour mark Abby is in a life or death situation and who should show up and save her? Joel. Seeing him triggers Abby's full memory and she recognizes that Joel was the man that killed her father. Abby's faced with a decision. She ends up killing Joel. Shooting him in the head. And because the player invested in Abby's story from the beginning, and was blindsided just like Abby with the revelation that Joel killed Abby's father it would have put the player in her emotional shoes

Then the last 10 hours of the game, a part not marketed at all, is the player playing as Ellie going after Abby for revenge. Playing as Ellie seeking revenge in the second act would have been cathartic for the player. But the player would feel conflicted because they had spent 10 hour getting to know Abby and going on a journey with her. Then when the player catches Abby the player is given the agency and choice to decide Abby's fate.

 

[OutOfBoose]

And then there are leaks

Spoiler

that reveal that new character actually kills Joel and everyone again wants "that abomination" dead before they even experience anything regarding Abby...

 

[Marvolo]

And then there are leaks

Spoiler

that reveal that new character actually kills Joel and everyone again wants "that abomination" dead before they even experience anything regarding Abby...

Spoiler

Difference is with the game starting with Abby I think in context it would work. With the version we got it doesnt work in or out of context. Playing the game doesnt make it work or a worthwhile narrative because Abby is introduced doing the worst thing she could do. As the game and narrative exists Abby's character and her story is a nonstarter. DOA from the start.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Spoiler

Difference is with the game starting with Abby I think in context it would work. With the version we got it doesnt work in or out of context. Playing the game doesnt make it work or a worthwhile narrative because Abby is introduced doing the worst thing she could do. As the game and narrative exists Abby's character and her story is a nonstarter. DOA from the start.

Spoiler

I get where you come from. First impression is frequently the strongest one. And if you show a new character in the worst possible light, for many people it might be impossible to switch from this first impression (which is what Ellie goes through). So the proposed solution is basically fleshing out the character before a terrible decision. The problem that I have with it, though, is that it kinda ruins the unique concept of the game. Which is basically making you hate the perpetrator so much, that thought of forgiveness and mercy is practically impossible. Even if you understand the motivation of said character. That the only thing you will want is seeing this character brutalized in the worst possible way. And then the game shoves you through all those terrible things that it assumes you're willing to go to while seeking retribution. By making Abby sympathetic from the start, it strips Ellie's revenge from it's momentum. Revenge will feel toxic from the start, not as story progresses.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Beat the game last night. Overall, I had a blast and i think the game was fantastic. I think going in, you're either gonna love the story or hate it. Regardless of how you feel about the story, I understand what they were trying to do. There are things i would have done differently, such as

Spoiler

Not play as Abby so much and, if so, have Ellie actually kill her at the end. I understand the point was for us to see this world, why things happen in it, and how far people are willing to do things, but with the game starting off with Abby killing Joel, I just didn't feel bad for her even learning her story. With that being said, I still had fun playing as her. It's really gonna come down to whether you want to accept the story they are trying to tell, or not. I don't think the story is perfect, but i also dont think its bad either. As I said, I think the main things i don't agree with is having us try to understand Abby over she killed such a beloved character at the start. Even if we understand by playing through her side, it still doesn't change that. Her character deserved to die. That bothered me more than Joel dying because I don't know who this woman is, and even if i did, why should I care?

Aside from that though, the story was fine. I actually did enjoy playing as abby, despite some of my misgivings.

The gameplay itself is absolutely amazing. a solid 10/10 for gameplay, and this is one of the few games where I feel the combat is dangerous. absolutely phenomenal.

Voice acting was fantastic too, of course. Also, this is easily one of the best looking games ever. It literally looks like it could have come out on the PS5.

Overall, I thought the game was fantastic. Story aside, it's a very addicting game, with very addicting gameplay. With the story, it's really all up to you whether you like it or not. This was meant to be divisive and that's exactly what it is. The game, for me, was fantastic.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I haven't played either game, but reading up about it makes me ask

Spoiler: spoilers

does anyone else find the idea of playing as the games antagonist, while also playing as its hero, really bizarre? It's an idea that almost sounds like it came from a writer who has never actually played a video game before. Gamers aren't passive observers, they're actually identifying with the hero by virtue of the fact they're controlling them. Games pit one side versus another. There's a reason why Mario games don't suddenly switch things up and have you play as Bowser part of the time, trying to kill Mario. It seems like a concept that someone came up with, and tried to shoehorn into a game, without anyone pointing out it was a dumb idea."

 

[Drizzle]

I just beat it. Took me a little over 21 hours to get through the whole thing on Moderate difficulty. My thoughts:

Spoiler

Story-wise, there were a lot of decisions I didn't agree with. Joel dying didn't anger me. As much as we all love him, he had some pretty big sins to atone for after his choice at the end of the first game. What angered me was him dying so early in the story, especially since the flashback scenes with him were among the best parts of the game. But I fell hook, line and sinker for what the developers were doing with Abby. I hated her at first obviously but I definitely became more sympathetic once I was playing as her for a few hours, even though I think she should have died at the end.

The ending is what left me feeling a bit empty. I so would have preferred Ellie and Dina living happily ever after at the farm after how bleak and exhausting the events leading up to that point were. I actually said "No" out loud to my TV when Tommy came back to ask Ellie to go after Abby. And of course, the ironic thing is that had Ellie just stayed on the damn farm, Abby would have died up on that pole on the beach anyway, she'd still have all her fingers so she could keep playing guitar, and she'd still have Dina and the baby. Instead, we're put through one last exhausting trial of Ellie fighting yet another group only to participate in an even more exhausting final boss fight against Abby where she doesn't even kill her. Ellie learned her lesson that the cycle of revenge doesn't work, but it would have hammered it home a lot harder had she come back to an empty farm if she had actually killed Abby. Hell, I might have even preferred it if Ellie and Abby had ended up killing each other on that beach.

Alternatively, there was a lot that I liked. I did love the flashbacks with Joel, particularly Ellie's birthday at the museum. The character stuff between Ellie and Dina was great, and I also really liked Abby's relationship with Lev during her portion of the game. While I was upset at what happened to Joel and the extra bleak ending, I'd be lying if I said that this is a bad game. It's one of the best looking games I've ever played and the gameplay was even an improvement on the first and never got stale even after 20 hours. That being said, I'm not about to replay it anytime soon, if at all because it's also the most depressing game I've ever played. I took my time with games like Red Dead Redemption 2 because I enjoyed being immersed in that world but with TLOU2 I was beelining towards the end because besides being curious at what all the fuss was about with the leaks, I was dying to get it over with after the constant gut punches the game throws at you. The hyper realistic AI enemies that mourn their friends after you kill them definitely wasn't meant help you sleep at night either.

All in all, I wouldn't be opposed to a TLOU3 featuring a redemption arc for Ellie but if we never get one (unlikely considering this game's sales) I won't shed any tears over it.

 

[Legendver2]

I've heard people call this a misery simulator lol.

 

[Legendver2]

(unlikely considering this game's sales)

I'm reading it's doing good on sales actually.

 

[jmc]

I haven't played either game, but reading up about it makes me ask

Spoiler: spoilers

does anyone else find the idea of playing as the games antagonist, while also playing as its hero, really bizarre? It's an idea that almost sounds like it came from a writer who has never actually played a video game before. Gamers aren't passive observers, they're actually identifying with the hero by virtue of the fact they're controlling them. Games pit one side versus another. There's a reason why Mario games don't suddenly switch things up and have you play as Bowser part of the time, trying to kill Mario. It seems like a concept that someone came up with, and tried to shoehorn into a game, without anyone pointing out it was a dumb idea."

Part of this divide I believe is because Naughty Dog are effectively trying to be a movie studio within a gaming environment. With films you can tell stories from different perspectives, you can see both sides of the argument because there's a clear separation between the audience and the characters on screen. There's a reason it's called the Fourth Wall because we are the observer in that instance.

Games are different. They are very much about audience participation, there is no Fourth Wall with gaming. You are both the audience as well as the director. You get to choose how the main character acts in the situation, how they achieve their objective, in most games you can even move the camera around, customise your characters weapons and costume and in some cases even choose the music being played. Games can tell great stories, but they can never be film.

Naughty Dog's problem is they want gaming to be films. But the two mediums are at odds with each other which is why we rarely see video game adaptations work on film. If your playing a game and the only way you can advance the story is if you actively participate in an action then it becomes a problem if the person holding the controller doesn't agree with the action. The creator of that game is effectively washing their hands of control at that point, you don't have to continue of course, but if you want to see what happens next you have no choice. The story is effectively being held hostage at that point. With film what you're presented with is what you get. You're not being asked to help drive the story forward. I think you can do games from multiple perspectives, GTA5 i think is a good examples, but the structure needs to make sense otherwise you end up with a situation like this.

 

[Marvolo]

Neil is a ****ing troll.

 

[Drizzle]

I'm reading it's doing good on sales actually.

I know. I said that

Spoiler

it was unlikely there wouldn't be a sequel because of the good sales.

 

[The Joker]

I don't think there was any doubt this would sell well. Even with the leaks.

 

[Marvolo]

I know. I said that

Spoiler

it was unlikely there wouldn't be a sequel because of the good sales.

Considering its Naughty Dog it will probably be 5 - 7 years before a third game is released. Probably at the tail end of the PS5 generation. The industry is fickle so its entirely possible Neil wont even be working at Naughty Dog by the time production for the third game begins.

 

[OutOfBoose]

@Marvolo said

Spoiler

that the final fight between Ellie and Abby looked like two white trash meth addicts going at each other and here's what Druckmann has to say about it:

But personally, to me, Ellie is finally able to get past her ego and this whole obsession. We’d often use the metaphor of talking about her revenge as a drug and Ellie as a kind of drug addict, and that’s ultimately why Dina left.

lmao, it's real.

The interview is here:
Neil Druckmann and Halley Gross Open Up About the Biggest Twists of ‘The Last of Us Part II’ – IndieWire

 

[Spider-Fan]

Society needs a re-education about not hating people for disagreeing with them. There's a lot of hyperbole getting thrown around on all sides of this.

If people do like this game, and it looks gameplay wise, it looks impressive...you don't need to drag them down over it like it's a personal offense to your existence.

If someone maybe didn't like this game or disagreed with some of the story choices, it doesn't mean they are some sort of alt-right nazi.

We can enjoy and maybe not enjoy things and we need to get back to being able to respectfully disagree with others opinions.

There is truth on this post. No one debates anything anymore. There are plenty of divisive movies I have debated about on these boards to varying degrees of good/bad discussion. But, it feels like a chore anymore to try and have any level of civil discourse. I love debate. I love getting opinions that contradict my own. I love understanding people and their points of view. People just seem to not have thick skin anymore. For whatever reason.

 

[Iceman]

Friendly discussion about subjects we love should be a healthy thing. I don’t know why it often veers away from that but I usually start disengaging when the vibe becomes negative. While it stays friendly and positive I have fun discussing things with people who have the opposite viewpoint to me on everything and also enjoy learning from them.

 

[henzINNIT]

Dodged the internet chatter until I finished the game. Had a feeling it would be best. Looking around the web, that was a good shout.

In short, the game is stunning. It looks, plays, and sounds impeccable. The world again is brimming with little pockets of humanity, stories, details, and aching beauty all over. It doubles down on all the gameplay elements that made up the original, adding new layers to all the systems and mechanics to the point where I think it is quite clearly a better "game". I find it baffling that people are going all conspiracy on TLOU2's near universal critical acclaim. This thing is really well made, and doesn't look out of place next to the countless other games that are showered with praise. Games media kinda sucks, they tend to give high scores, however this is as true for this game as any other.

That said, what separated The Last Of Us from its competition was the storytelling. I don't honestly think there was much chance that a sequel could recapture that lightning in a bottle that made Joel and Ellie so captivating, but I think it does a solid job. I liked the new characters, and remained invested through 25 or so hours. Still letting it all settle but it was a wild, frequently harrowing, bittersweet ride.

Spoiler

I love Dina. I'm glad she survived.

Abby was a bad-ass. I'm not sure how differently she plays but she looks so tough I found myself beating the **** out of most enemies with my bare hands.

I really liked how the game switched out the perspectives over 3 days. Ellie gradually sinking into darker territory first, and then 3 days with Abby following the opposite path. It was super tragic getting to know Abbie's circle knowing that Ellie was going to slaughter them all.

The structure of it all was a bit off. The final section felt like a DLC expansion, where the game seemed to end, before starting over for one last location and boss fight to wrap up.

Joel deserved to die. The beauty of the first game was how you empathized so strongly with Ellie that you understood and maybe even supported Joel's actions at the end. But it was wrong. He killed a bunch of people and prevented a cure that could have saved countless others. TLOU2 has to live with those consequences and they are severe. His death was agonizing to watch, and the perfect way to kick off this story of revenge.

The flashbacks are so emotional. The museum trip with Joel and Ellie is adorable and a gift to experience. The love between them is real, but it's complicated. You have an opportunity to see that Joel got that second chance at being a dad, though cut short. The depiction of Ellie's grief is exceptional, as she reconciles her loss and struggles with the sins of her father.

I found it particularly effective that Abby's father was the doctor who was going to operate on Ellie. I replayed the first game just last week, and the most difficult thing to do as Joel was shoot the doctor (in fact I shot him in the leg, but he died anyway). He is the last killing you do playing the game, and the most senseless.

It's a damn ugly world now though. I get the fatalism of Joel's actions coming back to haunt him, but I wonder what the idea is behind making humanity's factions so hostile. I get that people suck, but the Seraphites straight up hang and gut people. They felt a little too far for me, more Outlast than TLOU. The game did a tremendous job humanizing individuals within each group, but their organizations seem too outwardly hideous to keep them.

There wasn't much I had issue with. I got fed up for a brief stretch (during the introduction of the Scars) as I felt the game was dumping enemies right in front of me and ruining all chances of stealth, but it passed. I think the UI is worse than the first game. It's gone a little form over function, everything is white, and it took a while to get used to. I appreciate the attempt to bring in new infected types but the Shambler felt like a worn trope in an already worn genre, and didn't really fit with the interesting fungal design the game runs with.

 

[Iceman]

Dodged the internet chatter until I finished the game. Had a feeling it would be best. Looking around the web, that was a good shout.

In short, the game is stunning. It looks, plays, and sounds impeccable. The world again is brimming with little pockets of humanity, stories, details, and aching beauty all over. It doubles down on all the gameplay elements that made up the original, adding new layers to all the systems and mechanics to the point where I think it is quite clearly a better "game". I find it baffling that people are going all conspiracy on TLOU2's near universal critical acclaim. This thing is really well made, and doesn't look out of place next to the countless other games that are showered with praise. Games media kinda sucks, they tend to give high scores, however this is as true for this game as any other.

That said, what separated The Last Of Us from its competition was the storytelling. I don't honestly think there was much chance that a sequel could recapture that lightning in a bottle that made Joel and Ellie so captivating, but I think it does a solid job. I liked the new characters, and remained invested through 25 or so hours. Still letting it all settle but it was a wild, frequently harrowing, bittersweet ride.

Spoiler

I love Dina. I'm glad she survived.

Abby was a bad-ass. I'm not sure how differently she plays but she looks so tough I found myself beating the **** out of most enemies with my bare hands.

I really liked how the game switched out the perspectives over 3 days. Ellie gradually sinking into darker territory first, and then 3 days with Abby following the opposite path. It was super tragic getting to know Abbie's circle knowing that Ellie was going to slaughter them all.

The structure of it all was a bit off. The final section felt like a DLC expansion, where the game seemed to end, before starting over for one last location and boss fight to wrap up.

Joel deserved to die. The beauty of the first game was how you empathized so strongly with Ellie that you understood and maybe even supported Joel's actions at the end. But it was wrong. He killed a bunch of people and prevented a cure that could have saved countless others. TLOU2 has to live with those consequences and they are severe. His death was agonizing to watch, and the perfect way to kick off this story of revenge.

The flashbacks are so emotional. The museum trip with Joel and Ellie is adorable and a gift to experience. The love between them is real, but it's complicated. You have an opportunity to see that Joel got that second chance at being a dad, though cut short. The depiction of Ellie's grief is exceptional, as she reconciles her loss and struggles with the sins of her father.

I found it particularly effective that Abby's father was the doctor who was going to operate on Ellie. I replayed the first game just last week, and the most difficult thing to do as Joel was shoot the doctor (in fact I shot him in the leg, but he died anyway). He is the last killing you do playing the game, and the most senseless.

It's a damn ugly world now though. I get the fatalism of Joel's actions coming back to haunt him, but I wonder what the idea is behind making humanity's factions so hostile. I get that people suck, but the Seraphites straight up hang and gut people. They felt a little too far for me, more Outlast than TLOU. The game did a tremendous job humanizing individuals within each group, but their organizations seem too outwardly hideous to keep them.

There wasn't much I had issue with. I got fed up for a brief stretch (during the introduction of the Scars) as I felt the game was dumping enemies right in front of me and ruining all chances of stealth, but it passed. I think the UI is worse than the first game. It's gone a little form over function, everything is white, and it took a while to get used to. I appreciate the attempt to bring in new infected types but the Shambler felt like a worn trope in an already worn genre, and didn't really fit with the interesting fungal design the game runs with.

Thanks for this. I wasn’t expecting the story to be on quite the same level for the reasons you say. The first game had something unique and special about it that hardly any games have, and it’s very hard to replicate. Great to hear all the positives. How were you with the brutality of the combat? (something I was a little worried about) Was that all fine for you?

 

[henzINNIT]

Thanks for this. I wasn’t expecting the story to be on quite the same level for the reasons you say. The first game had something unique and special about it that hardly any games have, and it’s very hard to replicate. Great to hear all the positives. How were you with the brutality of the combat? (something I was a little worried about) Was that all fine for you?

Appreciated pal. The father-daughter bond the original managed to capture was a tough act to follow. I did feel tremendous emotional investment in many places in part 2, but it is less focused on one core relationship so none of them are quite as well developed.

The combat is brutal. No two ways about it. I didn't feel it crossed the line over to pure gratuity, but it is very violent, very gory, and rendered in such detail that it can become uncomfortable. Killing dogs is probably the worst, and because they track you it is pretty difficult to avoid harming them. I tried killing all the other enemies first to see if the dog would run or become non hostile afterward, but alas it continued to attack. The nature of violence is baked into this story, so an argument can be made that this is all for the betterment of the game, but I wouldn't begrudge anyone who didn't wanna deal with it.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Spoiler

Ellie should have killed Abby, and i still stand by that.

However, after sitting on it all, I still think the game was great overall. I just started New Game+

 

[OutOfBoose]

Also started NG+. This time on survivor with my progression from the first play.

Spoiler

Druckmann admitted that for half of development Ellie killed Abby and at some point they changed that. I feel they needed to keep it. And I'm saying it despite liking Abby. Since they changed the finale, it just felt so clumsy how they did it. Plus people are right to ask: what about all those who died by standing in Ellie's way? Breaking cycle doesn't make any sense, because she didn't break it. I hope nobody holds any grudge against Ellie because of those hundreds of people she killed. They had a better ending with dead Abby and they mucked it.

Drucmann also said that initially Joel's last words were "Sarah" when he looked at Ellie before getting his skull crushed. Ouch, that would be absolutely messed up.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Also started NG+. This time on survivor with my progression from the first play.

Spoiler

Druckmann admitted that for half of development Ellie killed Abby and at some point they changed that. I feel they needed to keep it. And I'm saying it despite liking Abby. Since they changed the finale, it just felt so clumsy how they did it. Plus people are right to ask: what about all those who died by standing in Ellie's way? Breaking cycle doesn't make any sense, because she didn't break it. I hope nobody holds any grudge against Ellie because of those hundreds of people she killed. They had a better ending with dead Abby and they mucked it.

Drucmann also said that initially Joel's last words were "Sarah" when he looked at Ellie before getting his skull crushed. Ouch, that would be absolutely messed up.

Spoiler

Wow, that would've been better honestly. I just feel like it didn't make much sense for Ellie to spare her. Not only did she kill Joel, but then she literally almost took Dinas life and hers as well. It's like, you're still gonna try to act like the better woman, Ellie? Just kill her!

What's done is done though. When looking past that, it was an otherwise great game and the most fun I've had with a game since Resident Evil 2 remake.

 

[henzINNIT]

Not sure I'm ready to start over right away, but there's a gaping void in my day now. This game really consumed me for a while.

Spoiler

Regarding Abby, I don't think Ellie should have killed her. Abby's journey became very similar to Joel's, finding some form of redemption through protecting someone innocent and vulnerable. When the end comes, Ellie cuts Abby down and Abby immediately rushes to Lev's aid, demonstrating the same traits that Joel would in that situation.

If I'm being brutally honest, the better ending might have been for Ellie to lose again. Abby has someone's future to fight for, whereas Ellie turned her back on Dina and JJ to seek revenge again, after all the suffering it had already caused.

Though I liked the cast a lot for the most part, one character I was disappointed with was Tommy. He was such a solid brother in the first, and he still is here, but he is also the guy that Abby gets the drop on twice. He gets owned a lot in this. It was really sad to see him become so bitter and his relationship with Ellie deteriorate. I really hoped he would reconcile his feelings and his brother's shady past, and find some peace.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Spoiler

Wow, that would've been better honestly. I just feel like it didn't make much sense for Ellie to spare her. Not only did she kill Joel, but then she literally almost took Dinas life and hers as well. It's like, you're still gonna try to act like the better woman, Ellie? Just kill her!

What's done is done though. When looking past that, it was an otherwise great game and the most fun I've had with a game since Resident Evil 2 remake.

I think another reason why

Spoiler

I wish Ellie killed her because it makes the ending where Ellie returns to an empty house more earned. It's just a direct, clear consequence. There's no reason to "preserve" Ellie's decency, because it's a lawless world and there's only as much justice as you can get for yourself. Ultimately, it just contradicts her killing spree in the sense of breaking the cycle, imo. I'd be sad if Abby was killed, but that's the horror of the situation. I'm not really desperate for her blood. People are driven to do horrible things out of ego, feelings and sense of justice they painted in their heads.