The Libertarian Thread

So why are those problems absent from the Nevada brothels?

Because that is a small enough area to handle by law enforcement, and keep checks. You do that nationwide in a nation of this size with Mexico to our South, and a massive problem with drug trafficking there, you will be asking for major problems of human trafficking because in many cases they go hand in hand. We can't handle the border as it is....
 
Nope. Gary Johnson is a Cato Institute-beltway libertarian, Ron Paul is a Mises Institute-Rothbardian libetarian.

:huh: I didn't know there were individual denominations within libertarianism. I'm being serious now, what's the difference?


Ron Paul wouldn't be chosen as anyone's VP, but if he was in a position to chose one I think he would likely go with someome like Judge Napalotano or, perhaps most likely, his son.

No way. Can you imagine the screams of "nepotism"? The attack ads? Even if Ron Paul wanted Rand as his VP, the GOP establishment would step in and say no.


As HH points out, Johnson can't win with Paul in the race - but I do think Ron Paul has caucusing potential in Iowa.

I don't think Johnson has much chance, Paul or no Paul. But I've been wrong before.
 
:huh: I didn't know there were individual denominations within libertarianism. I'm being serious now, what's the difference?

Great question. At the core it's a matter of "principle" over "practicality" or Deontological libertarianism vs. Consequentialist libertarianism. The former reject the State based on grounds of morality, that it is wrong to use coercive force on anyone, the State relies upon a monopoly of coercive force, so the State is immoral; the latter focus on the practical benefits of small government, the efficiency of the markets and how a free society is the most prosperous society. There are many "anarchist-libertarians (or anarco-capitalists)" in the Deontological ranks, not so many in the Consequentialists.

There is also a large issue in terms of economic philosophy.

The arc-Deontological libertarian is Murray Rothbard who is the major disciple of Ludwig von Mises. Mises and Rothbard are seen as the pillars of Austrian Economics (Mises came from Austria and continued a liberal economic tradition that really originated in Vienna with Carl Menger and Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk.

Austrian Economics, not unlike Milton Friedman, advocate free markets (no regulation, free trade, no prohibition, etc.) the biggest difference comes in the form of banking. Austrians vehemently oppose Central Banking and view it as the cause of inflation and market crisis. Austrians were among the ones that quickly identified, and warned about, the housing bubble.

The real "base" for these libertarians is the Mises Institute.

Meanwhile the leader of the Consequentialist libertarians is really Milton Friedman. Milton Friedman's coined his own economic philosophy, monetarism and his work is often referred to as "the Chicago School" (he was a long time Professor at the University of Chicago). Friedman was actually initially a Keynesian economist, an economic philosophy that views a role for the State in handling and reducing the effects of market recession, and developed his belief that such state intervention should not come from fiscal stimulus, as Keynes advocated, but through monetary policy. Friedman believed that by increasing the availability of money, you can jump start the economy and get it running smoothly again.

This is what Greenspan did following the dot-com burst and 9/11. He lowered interest rates, which boosted the housing sector, which generated a lot of jobs and made a lot of people rich. Unfortunately when you print money you don't actually create wealth, so when the money finally made its way through the system, housing prices dropped and the bubble collapsed.

But I digress.

One of the most famous Austrian economists is F.A. Hayek who won the Noble Prize in 1974. Hayek is unique because he kinda straddles the fense. He was a student of Mises, but ended up teaching, along side Friedman, at Chicago. Ayn Rand, who loved Mises, hated Hayek because Hayek always based his defense of the markets through social utility rather than on it's own moral merits.

Now there is a whole interesting history involving how the two different camps split apart, the Koch Brothers even play a starring role, but that's probably more than you wanted to know anyway.[/quote]

No way. Can you imagine the screams of "nepotism"? The attack ads? Even if Ron Paul wanted Rand as his VP, the GOP establishment would step in and say no.

Why? I mean 1., the GOP establishment wouldn't have any say on Paul's decision, but 2. Rand Paul is a US Senator and the closest politician in Washington to Ron Paul's beliefs. It's not as if they were attaching some unqualified hack on the ticket because daddy want's him there, the reality is that there are few choices better to serve as a potential replacement to Ron Paul.

I don't think Johnson has much chance, Paul or no Paul. But I've been wrong before.

I think a libertarian voice has the best chance in 2012 than we have had in a long, long time. But Ron Paul's voice is stronger.
 
Great question. At the core it's a matter of "principle" over "practicality" or Deontological libertarianism vs. Consequentialist libertarianism. The former reject the State based on grounds of morality, that it is wrong to use coercive force on anyone, the State relies upon a monopoly of coercive force, so the State is immoral; the latter focus on the practical benefits of small government, the efficiency of the markets and how a free society is the most prosperous society. There are many "anarchist-libertarians (or anarco-capitalists)" in the Deontological ranks, not so many in the Consequentialists.

There is also a large issue in terms of economic philosophy.

The arc-Deontological libertarian is Murray Rothbard who is the major disciple of Ludwig von Mises. Mises and Rothbard are seen as the pillars of Austrian Economics (Mises came from Austria and continued a liberal economic tradition that really originated in Vienna with Carl Menger and Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk.

Austrian Economics, not unlike Milton Friedman, advocate free markets (no regulation, free trade, no prohibition, etc.) the biggest difference comes in the form of banking. Austrians vehemently oppose Central Banking and view it as the cause of inflation and market crisis. Austrians were among the ones that quickly identified, and warned about, the housing bubble.

The real "base" for these libertarians is the Mises Institute.

Meanwhile the leader of the Consequentialist libertarians is really Milton Friedman. Milton Friedman's coined his own economic philosophy, monetarism and his work is often referred to as "the Chicago School" (he was a long time Professor at the University of Chicago). Friedman was actually initially a Keynesian economist, an economic philosophy that views a role for the State in handling and reducing the effects of market recession, and developed his belief that such state intervention should not come from fiscal stimulus, as Keynes advocated, but through monetary policy. Friedman believed that by increasing the availability of money, you can jump start the economy and get it running smoothly again.

This is what Greenspan did following the dot-com burst and 9/11. He lowered interest rates, which boosted the housing sector, which generated a lot of jobs and made a lot of people rich. Unfortunately when you print money you don't actually create wealth, so when the money finally made its way through the system, housing prices dropped and the bubble collapsed.

But I digress.

One of the most famous Austrian economists is F.A. Hayek who won the Noble Prize in 1974. Hayek is unique because he kinda straddles the fense. He was a student of Mises, but ended up teaching, along side Friedman, at Chicago. Ayn Rand, who loved Mises, hated Hayek because Hayek always based his defense of the markets through social utility rather than on it's own moral merits.

Now there is a whole interesting history involving how the two different camps split apart, the Koch Brothers even play a starring role, but that's probably more than you wanted to know anyway.


Why? I mean 1., the GOP establishment wouldn't have any say on Paul's decision, but 2. Rand Paul is a US Senator and the closest politician in Washington to Ron Paul's beliefs. It's not as if they were attaching some unqualified hack on the ticket because daddy want's him there, the reality is that there are few choices better to serve as a potential replacement to Ron Paul.



I think a libertarian voice has the best chance in 2012 than we have had in a long, long time. But Ron Paul's voice is stronger.

That was an interesting read as I didn't realize that was such factionalism in the libertarian movement. I do agree that Paul is more charismatic than Johnson and stands apart from the crowd (in style and presentation, Johnson can become indistinguishable from TPaw and Santorum for those who don't pay attention to policy and issue details...which is unfortunately most voters).

However, the bolded part seems half-true or partially true. Libertarians are a more respected voice in the GOP in 2012 than they have been ever. However, we're still at least three election cycles away before they can become a dominant voice. Simply put, libertarians' general views on social issues discredits them to most of the base (particularly drug legalization, gay marriage/gay rights, immigration reform and in some libertarians' case, abortion). The GOP's traditional far right, social base will have to be continued to be beaten hard in elections before they lose their grip on the party they've held since the Reagan Revolution. But given history, I do think if the GOP keeps running far right it will eventually backfire and create an open for libertarianism.

This is all Poli Sci to me, because libertarian ideology while appealing on some issues, is mostly naive and self-destructive in my opinion. But the movement's slow climb up the GOP over the next decade or two will be interesting to watch.
 
The Bible for Libertarianism is Human Action by Mises. Or one of the most important works.

And there are differences in Anarcho vs Minarchism.

The most well known Anarcho is the fox personality Napolitano. Whereas Paul is probably more of a Minarchist.
 
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bumping for discussion...
 
The Bible for Libertarianism is Human Action by Mises. Or one of the most important works.

And there are differences in Anarcho vs Minarchism.

The most well known Anarcho is the fox personality Napolitano. Whereas Paul is probably more of a Minarchist.

:up:

Rothbard's For A New Liberty I think is perhaps a more accessible introduction into "true" libertarianism.

I am under the impression that Paul is an Anarcho at heart. I saw an interview on the Mises Community website that he called it the "ideal". I do know a few serious anarchists in his office.

************

Anyone who has spent a good deal of time on the sight probably knows my opinion on third parties (I don't like them), but there seems to be a belief that Ron Paul leaving the house after 2012 is an indication he may run for a third party, if he doesn't take the GOP. The idea is quite interesting. I think he would have a hard time in a Bachmann v. Obama race (six months ago I couldn't believe I would have to consider the thought), but imagine if Romney won the GOP?

Paul could easily take votes from both sides. He can win with anti-war Democrats who hated bailouts and he can win with anti-Obamacare, Tea Party Republicans. To be crass, the fact Romney is a Mormon doesn't hurt Paul's cause in the South either.

Very, very interesting.
 
The funny thing is is that liberatarinism seems closer to the principals that the US was founded on than anything being practiced here today. And yet it is compared to communism and anarchism. Weird.

You are exactly right. Our country has for the most part turned it's back on everything it used to represent. Heck...when they fled the British to come here it was in part due to over-taxation and now our own government over taxes us. Our country is a joke.
 
Actually many fled to the colonies from Britain because of religious persecution. Yet, the libertarians go to rallies and vote alongside people who want to use government to interfere in people's private lives and govern based on their narrow reading of a religious text.

Neither political party is clean and the world is very different from the 1700s or 1600s. Taxes played a major role in the Revolution, but it is a bit inaccurate to say that the war was fought over a tea tax.
 
A lot of the Libertarian ideology appeals to me, but I still don't think a Libertarian Party candidate will win the Presidency any time soon. They just don't have the funding, and too many people think they're fringe radicals.

And DA, IMO "libertarians" who support government interfering in people's private lives based on religion are definitely not true libertarians.
 
True. But they vote alongside them in most elections. Look at Bachmann, you can see many libertarians rationalizing that since she supports libertarian economic policies that that is what her presidency would solely be and that her bat **** crazy talk about persecuting gays, dissolving separation of Church and State and constitutionally banning gay marriage would not factor into her agenda or policies. She'd just focus on cutting government programs like entitlements and the like.

That is crazy, but it happens all the time. It is how many libertarians rationalized voting for Bush or allowed their Tea Party movement to be co-opted by the Sarah Palins and Glenn Becks of the world.
 
A lot of the Libertarian ideology appeals to me, but I still don't think a Libertarian Party candidate will win the Presidency any time soon. They just don't have the funding, and too many people think they're fringe radicals.

And DA, IMO "libertarians" who support government interfering in people's private lives based on religion are definitely not true libertarians.

Do you have a kindle or e-book? If so, I can recommend a ton of free books on the subject.

I don't think a "Libertarian Party" candidate will win the White House, because the LP is a joke. I do think Ron Paul could have a very unique opportunity in 2012 as a third party run. I wouldn't want him to run under the LP banner though.

True. But they vote alongside them in most elections. Look at Bachmann, you can see many libertarians rationalizing that since she supports libertarian economic policies that that is what her presidency would solely be and that her bat **** crazy talk about persecuting gays, dissolving separation of Church and State and constitutionally banning gay marriage would not factor into her agenda or policies. She'd just focus on cutting government programs like entitlements and the like.

That is crazy, but it happens all the time. It is how many libertarians rationalized voting for Bush or allowed their Tea Party movement to be co-opted by the Sarah Palins and Glenn Becks of the world.

I could understand how a pragmatic libertarian would vote for Bachmann over Obama. Bachmann's social programs have no chance of becoming law and if you are the type resigned to "not waste your vote", then she is the better option of the two.

Of course I wrote in Ron Paul in '08, so I personally wouldn't be forced to make that decision. But I would have no problem with a libertarian that did.
 
Do you have a kindle or e-book? If so, I can recommend a ton of free books on the subject.

I don't think a "Libertarian Party" candidate will win the White House, because the LP is a joke. I do think Ron Paul could have a very unique opportunity in 2012 as a third party run. I wouldn't want him to run under the LP banner though.

I would support that. Not that I would vote for Ron Paul in a million years, but if he ran he'd Tea Party the presidential election and deliver it to Obama. I'm all for that.
 
I would support that. Not that I would vote for Ron Paul in a million years, but if he ran he'd Tea Party the presidential election and deliver it to Obama. I'm all for that.

Ron Paul could take as much from Obama as he could Romney. Ron Paul is anti-war, anti-bailout, anti-cronyism, pro-legalization and has been less willing to negotiate with John Bohener than Barack Obama.
 
True. But they vote alongside them in most elections. Look at Bachmann, you can see many libertarians rationalizing that since she supports libertarian economic policies that that is what her presidency would solely be and that her bat **** crazy talk about persecuting gays, dissolving separation of Church and State and constitutionally banning gay marriage would not factor into her agenda or policies. She'd just focus on cutting government programs like entitlements and the like.

That is crazy, but it happens all the time. It is how many libertarians rationalized voting for Bush or allowed their Tea Party movement to be co-opted by the Sarah Palins and Glenn Becks of the world.

I'd say most of them that vote for the "Bachmanns" of the world still aren't true libertarians. The problem is that economic policies are so prominent right now, and social policies are on the back burner, that it's hard to see a clear distinction between libertarians and bandwaggon jumpers. And I wouldn't say libertarians allowed the Tea Party to co-opted, it was basically taken.

I could understand how a pragmatic libertarian would vote for Bachmann over Obama. Bachmann's social programs have no chance of becoming law and if you are the type resigned to "not waste your vote", then she is the better option of the two.

Of course I wrote in Ron Paul in '08, so I personally wouldn't be forced to make that decision. But I would have no problem with a libertarian that did.

That just makes libertarians look as crazy as her. Any libertarian that would vote for Bachmann should hang their head in shame.
 
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Well, it looks like Perry is getting into the race....he hasn't said so yet, but we will see him in the race by February, so all of the GOP candidate talk will be out the window.
 
Well, it looks like Perry is getting into the race....he hasn't said so yet, but we will see him in the race by February, so all of the GOP candidate talk will be out the window.

That should probably ensure Romney the nomination then.
 
You have never seen Perry campaign...
 
He is known as one of the very best campaigners out there....he loves campaigning, loves doing the town hall meetings, loves speaking out of the back of pick up trucks at a drop of the hat, and no one does it better. He can also bring in money faster than anyone I have ever seen. Also, he will have the backing of Perry Homes (not a part of his family) and this is the guy that funded the "swift boat" campaign against Kerry.....

Now mind you governor Perry is pissed off beyond belief right now at Perry Homes CEO, over the sanctuary city fiasco last month....but that will be put aside as far as the CEO...he wants Obama out.
 

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