The Libertarian Thread

[bell110]

Ok, someone suggested it, so here it is.

How many libertarians are here. How come this common sense approach to life isn't more, well, common?

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Ok, someone suggested it, so here it is.

How many libertarians are here. How come this common sense approach to life isn't more, well, common?

because everyone thinks THEIR approach to life is based on common sense.

 

[SuBe]

I believe that your rights end right where mine begins.

I belive that the Government doesn't Grant Rights, people grant powers to Government.

I believe the Constitution is there to Limit Government, not Empower it.

I believe that Personal Responisibilty is the key to success.

I Believe that Government Welfare envokes Laziness.

 

[DeaDheaD]

Is that what being a Libertarian means?

 

[SuBe]

Is that what being a Libertarian means?

Pretty Much.

Libertarians believe that you have unlimited freedoms until you oppose the freedom of someone else.

 

[Steve Rogers]

Pretty Much.

Libertarians believe that you have unlimited freedoms until you oppose the freedom of someone else.

The funny thing is is that liberatarinism seems closer to the principals that the US was founded on than anything being practiced here today. And yet it is compared to communism and anarchism. Weird.

 

[SuBe]

The funny thing is is that liberatarinism seems closer to the principals that the US was founded on than anything being practiced here today. And yet it is compared to communism and anarchism. Weird.

Modern Libertarianism is based on Jeffersonian Democratic-Republican ideals. It is exactly what this country was founded on.

 

[Erzengel]

I'm a fan of the Dewey Decimal System.

 

[Aristotle]

I belive that the Government doesn't Grant Rights, people grant powers to Government.

Ain't you a naive one?

I believe the Constitution is there to Limit Government, not Empower it.

The Constitution CREATED government, son, which is the ultimate empowerment of government. Furthermore, the Constitution was created because the previous Articles of Confederation, which had established a very limited government, had abjectly FAILED.

I believe that Personal Responisibilty is the key to success.

Even though all research suggests that personal responsibility and "hard work" really can't do much in the way of upward mobility, except for a few outliers and exceptions that prove the rule.

I Believe that Government Welfare envokes Laziness.

Again, flying in the face of all credible sociological research.

 

[Aristotle]

The funny thing is is that liberatarinism seems closer to the principals that the US was founded on than anything being practiced here today. And yet it is compared to communism and anarchism. Weird.

Know what else we used to do when the country was founded? Slavery and institutionalized patriarchy.

Furthermore, any real US historian will tell you that it's intellectually dishonest to talk about "the principles the US was founded on" because the Founding Fathers were, ideologically, VERY disparate. There were three main strands of what our republic should look like, ranging from proto-fascism, to the barely-restrained capitalism and self-centeredness model that eventually prevailed, all the way to the proto-socialism favored by Thomas "Common Sense" Paine. You really can't talk about what the Founding Fathers thought, or what this country was founded upon. This country was founded upon a vague document called the Constitution, and the Founding Fathers disagreed about more than they agreed on.

So, conservatives and libertarians, quit trying to invoke the ghosts of the past to support yourselves. Today is today, not yesterday. It's time to look forward and make progress, not point to the way it used to be, because the way it used to be was not as good as the way it is today in many cases, and in most other cases, the way it used to be is pretty hard to nail down.

 

[Aristotle]

Modern Libertarianism is based on Jeffersonian Democratic-Republican ideals. It is exactly what this country was founded on.

It was Hamilton's vision of a republic that actually won out. The current US system of unbridled capitalism, unfettered self-centeredness and individualism, no regard for community or responsibility to others, and thoroughly entrenched economic classism, is all Alexander Hamilton.

 

[Steve Rogers]

Know what else we used to do when the country was founded? Slavery and institutionalized patriarchy.

You left out greed, corruption, war, unwillingness to pay taxes and genocide. What's your point? That the US isn't perfect? Well guess what? I never said it was.

Furthermore, any real US historian will tell you that it's intellectually dishonest to talk about "the principles the US was founded on" because the Founding Fathers were, ideologically, VERY disparate.

Sensational! That would really mean something to me if I were a US historian, but sense I'm not, I really don't give two s**its what is considered dishonest to say about a government that protects my rights to say it.

There were three main strands of what our republic should look like, ranging from proto-fascism, to the barely-restrained capitalism and self-centeredness model that eventually prevailed, all the way to the proto-socialism favored by Thomas "Common Sense" Paine.

Again, fascinating. Did I say otherwise?

You really can't talk about what the Founding Fathers thought, or what this country was founded upon. This country was founded upon a vague document called the Constitution, and the Founding Fathers disagreed about more than they agreed on.

Actually, and here's the fun part, I CAN talk about what this country is founded on. But, you don't HAVE to reply pr even read what I just said if you don't agree with it.

So, conservatives and libertarians, quit trying to invoke the ghosts of the past to support yourselves. Today is today, not yesterday.

Who said I am conservative or libertarian. I never said that. Oh it was you who said it! You know me better than I know me. Well, let's continue. What are my other political stances?

It's time to look forward and make progress, not point to the way it used to be, because the way it used to be was not as good as the way it is today

I know, because the nation is in such wonderful shape today. In fact, I have nothing to complain about. Global Warming, economy in the toilet, big government destroying the consititution and a president who can't pronounce the word nuclear. Yeah, everything is peachy. And since history never repeats itself, yeah, to hell with looking at our past faults. I bet you are one of those people who advocate taking slavery out of our history books.

 

[Aristotle]

You left out greed, corruption, war, unwillingness to pay taxes and genocide. What's your point? That the US isn't perfect? Well guess what? I never said it was.

No, my point is that it doesn't make sense to recall the golden age of the US, because that golden age doesn't exist.

Sensational! That would really mean something to me if I were a US historian, but sense I'm not, I really don't give two s**its what is considered dishonest to say about a government that protects my rights to say it.

Oh, don't be one of those. Those guys where you can't disagree with them without them acting like you're trying to infringe on their rights.

Actually, and here's the fun part, I CAN talk about what this country is founded on.

No, you MAY talk about it, as is your right. But you really CAN'T talk about it, in the sense, that "it" doesn't really exist.

Who said I am conservative or libertarian. I never said that. Oh it was you who said it! You know me better than I know me. Well, let's continue. What are my other political stances?

You're so high-strung it's funny. I was talking to SupermanBeyond as much as to you. But it sounds like you have a soft spot for libertarianism, at the very least.

I know, because the nation is in such wonderful shape today. In fact, I have nothing to complain about. Global Warming, economy in the toilet, big government destroying the consititution and a president who can't pronounce the word nuclear. Yeah, everything is peachy. And since history never repeats itself, yeah, to hell with looking at our past faults. I bet you are one of those people who advocate taking slavery out of our history books.

Never said everything is peachy, actually. I also never said that understanding history is bad--you're the one who said you don't give two ****s about history. But trying to go back to what we used to be, THAT'S what's a bad idea.

 

[Steve Rogers]

No, my point is that it doesn't make sense to recall the golden age of the US, because that golden age doesn't exist.

I'm not the one using the term golden age to describe what I called earlier a period of war, greed, corruption, unwillingness to pay taxes and genocide. All I said is liberataranism is closer to the founding principals of this nation.

Oh, don't be one of those. Those guys where you can't disagree with them without them acting like you're trying to infringe on their rights.

I wasn't. I was pointing out the irony of it all in a witty way.

No, you MAY talk about it, as is your right. But you really CAN'T talk about it, in the sense, that "it" doesn't really exist.

What is this it that you refer too? And when did I talk about it? And if it doesn't exsist, then how did I talk about it?

You're so high-strung it's funny. I was talking to SupermanBeyond as much as to you. But it sounds like you have a soft spot for libertarianism, at the very least.

Actually, I don't have a soft spot for liberarianism. Swing and a miss.

Never said everything is peachy, actually. I also never said that understanding history is bad--you're the one who said you don't give two ****s about history. But trying to go back to what we used to be, THAT'S what's a bad idea.

Dude, I will give you a million dollars if you can point out where I actually said I don't give two s**ts about history.

 

[bell110]

Originally Posted by SupermanBeyond
I believe that Personal Responisibilty is the key to success.

Even though all research suggests that personal responsibility and "hard work" really can't do much in the way of upward mobility, except for a few outliers and exceptions that prove the rule.

So... is personal responsibility not a good thing?

 

[SuBe]

So... is personal responsibility not a good thing?

No, Personal Responsbility is a great thing. If you can't depend on yourself, what can you depend on?

 

[SuBe]

I'm not the one using the term golden age to describe what I called earlier a period of war, greed, corruption, unwillingness to pay taxes and genocide. All I said is liberataranism is closer to the founding principals of this nation.

I wasn't. I was pointing out the irony of it all in a witty way.

What is this it that you refer too? And when did I talk about it? And if it doesn't exsist, then how did I talk about it?

Actually, I don't have a soft spot for liberarianism. Swing and a miss.

Dude, I will give you a million dollars if you can point out where I actually said I don't give two s**ts about history.

Don't try to argue with that guy. He doesn't want to truly debate the issue. But, it is his right to say these things, it doesn't mean that he is correct.

Libertarianism is all about Liberty, you can't debate with someone that isn't willing to listen.

 

[Eggyman]

I was thinking of making The Official Agnostic Thread, but realised that it wouldn't work -- just a load of people saying, 'Yeah, whatever.'

 

[SuBe]

I was thinking of making The Official Agnostic Thread, but realised that it wouldn't work -- just a load of people saying, 'Yeah, whatever.'

"Yeah, Whatever"

 

[Aristotle]

So... is personal responsibility not a good thing?

No, but acting as if it's all a person needs to achieve success is naive and incorrect.

Don't try to argue with that guy. He doesn't want to truly debate the issue. But, it is his right to say these things, it doesn't mean that he is correct.

How could you possibly be able to say that? You haven't engaged me on the merits of the argument. Meanwhile, I'm talking about actual substantive arguments, while you're just spouting slogans. So who's not debating the issue?

 

[teseract]

I believe that your rights end right where mine begins.

I belive that the Government doesn't Grant Rights, people grant powers to Government.

I believe the Constitution is there to Limit Government, not Empower it.

I believe that Personal Responisibilty is the key to success.

I Believe that Government Welfare envokes Laziness.

While it is a nice utopian ideal it's sadly not practical at all.

 

[SuBe]

While it is a nice utopian ideal it's sadly not practical at all.

It is practical, just not practiced. It is easier to give the Government more power, more money in the excuse of making lives easier. But is it right? I say no. The old adage: "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime." holds true. That is the same for Welfare, Personal Responsibility will get you out of any situation. The Goverment has no rights. The Government is the representive of the People, all rights begin there.

 

[bell110]

While it is a nice utopian ideal it's sadly not practical at all.

Of course it's practical. It's better than we got now.

 

[bell110]

No, but acting as if it's all a person needs to achieve success is naive and incorrect.

I guess it depends on how you view success. But, personal responsibility is much better than the government being responsible for you.

 

[SuBe]

I guess it depends on how you view success. But, personal responsibility is much better than the government being responsible for you.

Here Here!