The MCU's biggest mistakes

[NealKenneth]

I thought it would be interesting to look back at the MCU and talk about some of their biggest missteps, missed opportunities and mistakes in the blooming of this big, beautiful flower. Here are three that come to mind for me:

1) Alienating Jon Favreau during the production of Iron Man 2. After the amazing success of the first Iron Man, it boggles my mind that Marvel didn't give Favreau the proper time and space to make Iron Man 2. Their was also too much pressure to include the SHIELD subplot, which ended up being the weakest element in a film that was otherwise quite good. Given just a few more months of pre-production, Favreau could have come up with plot elements that would integrate the larger universe in a more natural way.

This, of course, led to him not returning to direct Iron Man 3, which for me is the worst film in the series.

2) Launching Agents of SHIELD too early. The Avengers was a magic moment for cinema, but certain aspects of Phase 2 were marked by a clear drop in quality indicative of an operation that was not sure what to do next, and therefore began stretching itself too thin. This eventually culminated in an exhausted Joss Whedon stepping away from Marvel entirely and even expressing disappointment with a lot of his work as Phaserunner (including regret at bringing Coulson back to life.)

A lot of pressure could have been alleviated by delaying Agents of Shield by at least one year, allowing Whedon to focus on creating a more cohesive Iron Man 3, Thor 2, and Avengers 2. I would go as far as to say he would have been the perfect choice for director for The Dark World, seeing as how it started right where The Avengers left off.

3) Creating the MCU without making changes to The Incredible Hulk.
As plans to create an interconnected cinematic universe became more clear, The Incredible Hulk should have been rewritten and delayed by at least one year, with the studio insisting on Ruffalo as their choice for Banner rather than giving into Universal's demands. The new context could have provided a clear direction for the film and, for example, allowed a far more natural introduction of SHIELD than what occurred in Iron Man 2.

More came to mind as I wrote this out, but I am getting sleepy and so I hand it over to you all!

 

[ludovica]

with the studio insisting on Ruffalo as their choice for Banner rather than giving into Universal's demands.

Was he in the fold already for TIH?

 

[NealKenneth]

Yes, he was the original choice from Marvel's side, but Universal wanted a bigger name and put their foot down about that issue.

 

[Iron_Stark]

1) Alienating Jon Favreau during the production of Iron Man 2. After the amazing success of the first Iron Man, it boggles my mind that Marvel didn't give Favreau the proper time and space to make Iron Man 2. Their was also too much pressure to include the SHIELD subplot, which ended up being the weakest element in a film that was otherwise quite good. Given just a few more months of pre-production, Favreau could have come up with plot elements that would integrate the larger universe in a more natural way.

The "SHIELD took too much time in the movie" myth. I forgot exactly how much time was devoted to SHIELD in that movie, but it was under 10 minutes and it didn't take away from the movie.

The thing that DID hurt the movie was the War Machine/trying to make Iron Man a team player for the Avengers subplot. Had they given one or two more fights between Tony/Vanko (especially after that great exchange they had in the holding cell), showing Vanko upgrading his suit throughout the movie, and showing him being more of an intellectual genius rather than a hired gun, then the movie would've been better.

Tony being drunk at the party, Vanko comes crashing it with an upgraded suit, puts more lives at risk and the stakes rise tremendously vs what we got, two dudes "fighting", knowing they're not going to hurt each other.

Scenes of Vanko upgrading his suit throughout the movie, instead of a retread of the Iron Man suit being upgraded to the War Machine armor.

More and longer fight scenes with Vanko.

Seriously, War Machine should've been saved for part 3, Rhodey in the armor in the sequel was way too soon and hurt the movie.

Mickey Rourke was badly wasted. I don't blame him one bit for being pissed.

 

[jolldan]

The Mandarin

 

[NealKenneth]

The "SHIELD took too much time in the movie" myth. I forgot exactly how much time was devoted to SHIELD in that movie, but it was under 10 minutes and it didn't take away from the movie.

I was not talking about how bad the subplot was, not how long it took. I mean...they find out Stark is dying, so they bring him some schematics for a new elements from decades ago that just so happens to be able to replace the one that is poisoning him? It's just dumb.

Although it should be mentioned that most of the stuff you recommend instead was actually filmed, it just wasn't felt in the film due to time constraints. Without the ten minutes of SHIELD mallarky you can have the extra ten minutes needed to develop Vanko etc.

 

[Iron_Stark]

I was not talking about how bad the subplot was, not how long it took. I mean...they find out Stark is dying, so they bring him some schematics for a new elements from decades ago that just so happens to be able to replace the one that is poisoning him? It's just dumb.

Although it should be mentioned that most of the stuff you recommend instead was actually filmed, it just wasn't felt in the film due to time constraints. Without the ten minutes of SHIELD mallarky you can have the extra ten minutes needed to develop Vanko etc.

Tony found the new element on his own from the model. All Fury do was bring him his dad's old stuff. There was barely any subplot to make it bad, after the mansion explosion Fury shows up, gives Tony his dad's stuff, and there's a scene or two with Coulson. How's that a bad subplot and taking away from the movie?

Stop acting like SHIELD wasn't in the first one. Heck, in the first one, SHIELD had more screen time and had an actual action sequence.

No, without the War Machine subplot, the scenes, cgi, time and money should've been given to Whiplash.

That reason alone is why everyone is constantly saying the MCU villains suck.

 

[wampa1]

VISION lifting Mjolnir

 

[LaughterLives]

I think First Avenger, Doctor Strange and Thor should've been handled more seriously. I think they could've been way more compelling had they realized the more dramatic aspects of these characters in their movies, specifically.

I think Homecoming was a mistake entirely.

I think casting Mike Coulter as Luke Cage was a total mistake.

 

[Boom]

Are we talking about mistakes in the MCU as a collective franchise (oversight, casting, direction, etc), or are we actually picking out mistakes in the individual films? Because I have very few examples for the former, but a laundry list for the latter.

 

[NotNickFury]

If we mean the universe as a whole, one big issue was Agents of SHIELD early on playing up that it had a massive impact on the films. But as the MCU as a whole has grown larger and more cosmic, SHIELD itself feels like an afterthought or a bygone remnant of Phase 1 and 2. Not to mention that the so-called impact on the world is done one way since the films don't acknowledge the shows and, quite frankly, don't need to.

Not that every moviegoer that sees an MCU film watches the shows or has to, but I feel like SHIELD doing that so much has added to the conversation of why the two mediums don't complement each other, as opposed to one picking and choosing elements from the recent films to add to its narrative, but not the other way around. At least the Netflix shows, while still also in the MCU, feel like they're in their own little pocket of New York and don't need to acknowledge anything outside of The Incident since that was in their backyard.

 

[Venom 1988]

This, of course, led to him not returning to direct Iron Man 3, which for me is the worst film in the series.

That is not the reason why he decided not to direct Iron Man 3 though. He was offered by Disney (which already owned Marvel at that point) to direct Magic Kingdom (though that got put on hold and he ended up doing Jungle Book).

 

[Chance Jackson]

VISION lifting Mjolnir

One of the best parts the whole theater gasped when they saw it

 

[Kev4000]

- How they handled Agent13, there was more potential I think.

- Hulk & Black Widow

 

[Heretic]

One of the best parts the whole theater gasped when they saw it

More of a missed opportunity. Yeah...people thought it was pretty cool.

BUT

Imagine that Infinity War was mostly over...Thanos is wiping the floor with our heroes...Cap struggles to his feet and in a last ditch desperate move, grabs Mjolner...and lifts it. The roof would be blown off of every theater in the country. But now, if it happens, Cap wont have even been the first one to do it...because of a cheap laugh moment.

I'll add that it was an INSULT to end Age of Ultron by teasing the "Avengers Assemble" line. It angered me that they KNEW we wanted to hear it but decided that we just didn't deserve to hear it. In Infinity War, we NEED an "Avengers Assemble"...and the reaction will be amazing if it happens...but for ME...I will roll my eyes a bit over it because of that earlier tease. They should have not even teased it.

I'll even add that I would have loved to have heard Thor utter the "Ultron, we would have words with thee" line...which would have required a rewrite of the setup to the final action scene (which I'd have been fine with).

My point is, I don't like Age of Ultron lol.

 

[Venom 1988]

I'll add that it was an INSULT to end Age of Ultron by teasing the "Avengers Assemble" line. It angered me that they KNEW we wanted to hear it but decided that we just didn't deserve to hear it. In Infinity War, we NEED an "Avengers Assemble"...and the reaction will be amazing if it happens...but for ME...I will roll my eyes a bit over it because of that earlier tease. They should have not even teased it.

I've listened to Whedon's reasoning for that (I think on Empite Podcast) and I still don't understand what the point of it was to cut it mid-sentence.

 

[Heretic]

I've listened to Whedon's reasoning for that (I think on Empite Podcast) and I still don't understand what the point of it was to cut it mid-sentence.

His reasoning seems to be "I know the fans wanted it...and screw 'em."

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Trying to turn Thor into a romcom.

 

[NealKenneth]

Tony found the new element on his own from the model. All Fury do was bring him his dad's old stuff.

The structure of the new element was encoded in the design of the model. So basically the fact that this element saved Tony's life is purely a coincidence, even though the characters act like it's not...that's very poor writing and was probably the result of how rushed the production was and how the higher-ups forced Favreau to integrate Samuel Jackson and SHIELD into the plot somehow.

Favreau had a falling out with Marvel over what happened during the making of Iron Man 2. This has been mentioned in interviews with both parties and is well-documented.

 

[2kt09]

Could have sworn there was a "things you don't like" thread, but I guess I'll keep it to the production and narrative side of things

Iron Man 2 was strike 1
Ant-Man was strike 2

Neither of the 2 replaced roles (Banner/Rhodey) work as offering as good or better characters.

However, I have noticed that certain side characters seem to develop or grow more than the guys who are supposed to be headlining.

I don't get why direct sequels have become such a weird anomaly, the only one that's noticeably better than its first entry is The Winter Soldier.

If changing filmmakers is what it took by the 3rd installments, they definitely should have switched out sooner.

My one little personal aside is that Phase 2 made me numb to this universe.

 

[BigThor]

Marvel Studios not working things out with Patty Jenkins and going with Alan Taylor instead.

 

[Iron_Stark]

The structure of the new element was encoded in the design of the model. So basically the fact that this element saved Tony's life is purely a coincidence, even though the characters act like it's not...that's very poor writing and was probably the result of how rushed the production was and how the higher-ups forced Favreau to integrate Samuel Jackson and SHIELD into the plot somehow.

Favreau had a falling out with Marvel over what happened during the making of Iron Man 2. This has been mentioned in interviews with both parties and is well-documented.

Not that much of a coincidence since the new element was always meant to replace the palladium in the arc reactor. Howard Stark just didn't have the technology to create it.

Not that much of a falling out since he came back for part 3 and the Spider-Man movie.

 

[NealKenneth]

Haha uhhhhh I am not sure what you want from me here....to disagree with Favreau himself and say there wasn't any sort of falling out?

Back on topic, the Jenkins one is very interesting. Wish we had more details on her ideas for the film

 

[Web-Head]

I think First Avenger, Doctor Strange and Thor should've been handled more seriously. I think they could've been way more compelling had they realized the more dramatic aspects of these characters in their movies, specifically.

I watched Strange again a little while ago and it is one of the more serious MCU films but the Cloak being used for humor was a bit too much at times and some of the other humor kinda fell flat. Hopefully the next one handles the humor better.

Marvel Studios not working things out with Patty Jenkins and going with Alan Taylor instead.

This too...in a way. Taylor did what he could I guess, but what Patty said she would've wanted to do (Romeo and Juliet type thing, wasn't it?) wouldn't have really worked IMO.

 

[LaughterLives]

I watched Strange again a little while ago and it is one of the more serious MCU films but the Cloak being used for humor was a bit too much at times and some of the other humor kinda fell flat. Hopefully the next one handles the humor better.

I agree but I felt it would've been better to take advantage of its cast and work in a more dramatic story. Especially, with the backstory of Strange's sister and stuff that they left out.
I also felt that Strange lent itself to bring a horror aspect to the MCU that was completely squandered.

I had no problem with the film's humor despite feeling that most of it was unnecessary. I actually think this is the Funniest MCU film I've seen and one the better aspects of the movie. I just didn't understand why they couldn't handle the other stuff just as well if not better.