The Official Flash thread

[TheCorpulent1]

Exactly. There's no distinction because there's no way for Barry and Wally to be perfectly equal partners. One of them is going to clearly pull ahead--maybe not even by Johns' own doing, since I agree with you about his affection for Wally--but somehow, either through marketing because the newly returned Barry is obviously going to be more profitable than Wally or through neglect because Barry is fresh and new and unexplored in his post-return status quo or through some other knucklehead sticking Wally in a crappy book that further tarnishes people's view of him, Barry is going to be regarded as the #1 Flash and Wally will dwindle to a footnote much the way Jay has under Wally's term.

 

[storyteller]

Yep, maybe wally should take out the old kid flash costume. Or follow Bart to the grave.

 

[fifthfiend]

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080724-comiccon-flash-rebirth.html

Wow. Because the people utterly failed to demand it - here's Barry Allen!

I mean at least the Hal Jordan thing had a constituency. Was there actually some Bring Back Barry movement somewhere whose existence I had just never heard of? Does anyone actually sincerely give a **** about a character who's been dead for 20 years now?

Honestly this whole thing smacks of desperation borne of creative atrophy. "Hey that Hal: Rebirth thing sold some comics for us right? Maybe we could do a... Superman: Rebirth? Naw **** he ain't dead right now. Oh I know, a Batman Rebirth? No also not dead, memo - kill him one of these days. Oh wait there's that Barry whasisface from the Crisis on whachamathing. We'll do him."

Don't you getit? That's what we're saying! If Barry gets the #1 spot and is seen as the top Flash, that is Wally getting pushed aside.

Yeah I mean honestly, it's pretty straightforward. There is the center, where Wally currently is. And after Barry returns, he, Barry, will be the one in that center, while Wally will be in a different place, over to the side of that.

I mean I guess you can argue that it won't be so much a pushing motion? Maybe Wally will be only nudged aside. Jostled, perhaps?

 

[BrianWilly]

This blind, completely unfounded optimism is not like you.

Is it unfounded? I just think it's a little less black and white than, bam, Barry's back, boom, Wally's ****ed.

And hippie_hunter needs to get out of my brain, because I was just about to say what he just said. Smith didn't write Connor for five years before having to resurrect Ollie (and Smith didn't neglect Connor, either). And I have to reiterate, for all that Johns obviously doesn't appreciate Kyle, he didn't neglect Kyle. It wasn't his obligation to include Kyle in Hal's book if Kyle was being included in other places, no more than it was Gibbons' obligation to include Kyle in the GLC while he was busy elsewhere.

And DC hasn't neglected Kyle either; Kyle has appeared, consistently and steadily, throughout all the times that Hal has been back. Kyle's showing in SCW was bad, and Countdown was bad, though in the latter case DC saw fit to give Kyle a big role in what they thought was going to be a big series. But taking point in Rann/Thanagar War, was that bad? Becoming Ion and having his own twelve-issue miniseries, was that bad? Currently costarring in one of the best books -- if not the best book, period -- DC is producing, does it sound like Kyle is having that rough of a time in the longterm, even with three other primary GLs?

And is being a supporting character really as damaging as all that? Most of my favorite characters either are ensemble characters or have spent a bunch of time being one instead of a headliner. Is Jay really that much less of a character than Wally? Is Alan that much less than Hal?

And I don't understand why people keep on listening to DiDio like he actually knows what he's talking about. Yes, I agree, it's a large concern that DC is just going to throw Barry into all the big teams to replace Wally, make him the "face" of the Flash like Hal is the "face" of the GLs, thereby continuing the streak of the DCU being as uninteresting as it's been for the past years 'cause everything old is old again instead of the evolving, vibrant place that it should be.

Or, it could be that this in itself is the progress and the shakeup that the Flashes need. Hal's return did great things for the GL line; that's undeniable, that's the fact, the last year of Green Lantern stories have been the most exciting part of the DCU (though, it has to be said, the competition wasn't stiff). Likewise Ollie's return brought a lot of good things into the fore, reconnected a lot of relations and paved tons of new ones. Wally has been the main Flash for twenty years. That's longer than most of us have been reading comics, longer than almost any other modern legacy has lasted, the supposedly sacrosanct status quo that everyone was comfortable with; when Bart took over, everyone's reaction was "Grrr, Wally had better come back."

The hilarity here of course is that this, all of this, is the exact reaction Barry fans had when Wally took over. It's the exact reaction when Kyle took over from Hal, just as it's the exact reaction when Hal took over from Kyle, or Connor from Ollie, and vice versa, and the Questions, and the Blue Beetles, and the Dr. Fates, and the lists go on and on and on. Comic book readers have a clinically averse reaction to change; we like to pretend that it only applies to bad change, but the truth is that it doesn't. I, for one, would rather not be That Comic Book Guy. At the end of the day, if Wally's character is not actively being trod on by fear demons, if this lands us all with good stories and a more dynamic universe, I have nothing to complain about. Nothing at all.

 

[fifthfiend]

Hal's return did great things for the GL line; that's undeniable

I'm going to go ahead and deny it. Is there really anything that wasn't accomplished by Kyle's already having brought the Corps and Guardians back that was accomplished by Hal's return? Was Parallax's invention really necessary for an Antimonitor-powered Sinestro Corps to turn up and start ****? Did anyone, anywhere really need to be introduced to Ion the Space Manatee?

I mean okay making Geoff Johns the writer for GL clearly did (what many people feel are) good things for the GL line and I guess Johns wasn't doin' no Green Lantern unless he could bring back Hal, but so far as I can see the character himself is pretty much incidental to the process.

 

[fifthfiend]

Is it unfounded? I just think it's a little less black and white than, bam, Barry's back, boom, Wally's ****ed.

And hippie_hunter needs to get out of my brain, because I was just about to say what he just said. Smith didn't write Connor for five years before having to resurrect Ollie (and Smith didn't neglect Connor, either). And I have to reiterate, for all that Johns obviously doesn't appreciate Kyle, he didn't neglect Kyle. It wasn't his obligation to include Kyle in Hal's book if Kyle was being included in other places, no more than it was Gibbons' obligation to include Kyle in the GLC while he was busy elsewhere.

And DC hasn't neglected Kyle either; Kyle has appeared, consistently and steadily, throughout all the times that Hal has been back. Kyle's showing in SCW was bad, and Countdown was bad, though in the latter case DC saw fit to give Kyle a big role in what they thought was going to be a big series. But taking point in Rann/Thanagar War, was that bad? Becoming Ion and having his own twelve-issue miniseries, was that bad? Currently costarring in one of the best books -- if not the best book, period -- DC is producing, does it sound like Kyle is having that rough of a time in the longterm, even with three other primary GLs?

And is being a supporting character really as damaging as all that? Most of my favorite characters either are ensemble characters or have spent a bunch of time being one instead of a headliner. Is Jay really that much less of a character than Wally? Is Alan that much less than Hal?

And I don't understand why people keep on listening to DiDio like he actually knows what he's talking about. Yes, I agree, it's a large concern that DC is just going to throw Barry into all the big teams to replace Wally, make him the "face" of the Flash like Hal is the "face" of the GLs, thereby continuing the streak of the DCU being as uninteresting as it's been for the past years 'cause everything old is old again instead of the evolving, vibrant place that it should be.

Or, it could be that this in itself is the progress and the shakeup that the Flashes need. Hal's return did great things for the GL line; that's undeniable, that's the fact, the last year of Green Lantern stories have been the most exciting part of the DCU (though, it has to be said, the competition wasn't stiff). Likewise Ollie's return brought a lot of good things into the fore, reconnected a lot of relations and paved tons of new ones. Wally has been the main Flash for twenty years. That's longer than most of us have been reading comics, longer than almost any other modern legacy has lasted, the supposedly sacrosanct status quo that everyone was comfortable with; when Bart took over, everyone's reaction was "Grrr, Wally had better come back."

The hilarity here of course is that this, all of this, is the exact reaction Barry fans had when Wally took over. It's the exact reaction when Kyle took over from Hal, just as it's the exact reaction when Hal took over from Kyle, or Connor from Ollie, and vice versa, and the Questions, and the Blue Beetles, and the Dr. Fates, and the lists go on and on and on. Comic book readers have a clinically averse reaction to change; we like to pretend that it only applies to bad change, but the truth is that it doesn't. I, for one, would rather not be That Comic Book Guy. At the end of the day, if Wally's character is not actively being trod on by fear demons, if this lands us all with good stories and a more dynamic universe, I have nothing to complain about. Nothing at all.

Wow, the pretentious snobbery and smug presumption in that post could choke a yak.

 

[BrianWilly]

Thanks. Y'know, something that people forget is that at the time the decision was made to cancel Kyle's book reboot it under Hal, Kyle's book was pretty ****ing bad. I superlove Kyle more than all of you combined and you all know this so there, but the GL line was indistinct and floundering at the time. The same is true for the Flash, I'm sorry, it doesn't matter how much you like Peyer, it's still indistinct and floundering. Maybe GL could have been revitalized without Hal, but they chose to do it with him, and it worked. And this is not me taking that old wearisome "sales = quality" approach, it's completely apparent in the series and reactions. It absolutely worked.

And there would not have been a Sinestro Corps with without Hal, Sinestro is Hal's rogue and not Kyle's, or anyone else's. There may have been some other form of some other Corps, but it would have been very different than what we got. Would it have worked as much? Who the **** knows?

 

[fifthfiend]

I superlove Kyle more than all of you combined and you all know this so there

Really? Cause I could have sworn you just said

The hilarity here of course is that this, all of this, is the exact reaction Barry fans had when Wally took over. It's the exact reaction when Kyle took over from Hal, just as it's the exact reaction when Hal took over from Kyle, or Connor from Ollie, and vice versa, and the Questions, and the Blue Beetles, and the Dr. Fates, and the lists go on and on and on.

You must be some kind of special fan, exempt from the rules that govern us lowly fan-primitives.

 

[BrianWilly]

Sure, whatever...you said it, not me.

All I know is that I liked GL: Rebirth back then and still do today and was never really all that hung up about Kyle's place in the DCU even with Hal back. Them's the facts. I'll ***** about Hal like everyone else 'cause he's a cardboard box compared to every single other Lantern, but I never made a fuss about his return.

 

[Anubis]

Sooo, Barry's return will be the awesome, but then he'll just be a cardboard box compared to all the other Flashes as well?

 

[BrianWilly]

I'm pretty sure that's not even remotely close to what I implied..

 

[Anubis]

Yeah, I think i'm gonna skip this one.

 

[The Batman]

brians talking alot of sense, actually.

You can say kyle's tenure couldve brought back the corps, but you're forgetting one thing: 1. Kyle represents the era of no GL corps and 2. DC obviously considered kyle stale as the face of GL's. So, DC decides its going to bring back the corps, and decides to bring back the guy who helped introduce the concept.

Honestly, Wally is in Kyles place right now. Wally's book hasnt sold well or been talked about in about three years. And whether comic fans hate procreation or not, most dont like the whole family concept, even with waid writing it.

But now, DC's just brought back Barry Allen, who has a wealth of story potential. he hasnt been defined whatsoever in a post crisis modern DCU. His job description's become famous thanks to CSI...and, like Hal, DC sees him as the embodiment of the silver age Flash concept. It's gonna be interesting seeing that modernized

 

[BrianWilly]

Don't get me wrong, though, I'm not heaping any praises on DC for what they've contrived here. They had a chance to get it right with Bart, and epic failed, and then they had a chance to get it right with Wally, and flinched. The fact that I say, "Hey, maybe this will bring them out of the mire that they've dug themselves into" is not a compliment. Anticipation, certainly, but not a compliment.

And I love Wally's kids and will choke a b**** if they get undone somehow.

 

[The Batman]

Don't get me wrong, though, I'm not heaping any praises on DC for what they've contrived here. They had a chance to get it right with Bart, and epic failed, and then they had a chance to get it right with Wally, and flinched. The fact that I say, "Hey, maybe this will bring them out of the mire that they've dug themselves into" is not a compliment. Anticipation, certainly, but not a compliment.

And I love Wally's kids and will choke a b**** if they get undone somehow.

agreed. it would be a cop out to get rid of them, as much as i dont really care for the idea....

but, you can bet its a factor in bringing barry back

And again, bart shouldnt have been flash in the first place. IMO, the idea of there needing to be a new flash after a crisis is dumb

 

[Kenda Man]

But now, DC's just brought back Barry Allen, who has a wealth of story potential. he hasnt been defined whatsoever in a post crisis modern DCU. His job description's become famous thanks to CSI...and, like Hal, DC sees him as the embodiment of the silver age Flash concept. It's gonna be interesting seeing that modernized

As long as Johns writes him after Flash: Rebirth, then I will have faith in that Barry is in good hands.

I think Bart being Kid Flash (Johns seemed to have rushed the maturing of Bart to be Kid Flash as seen in Teen Titans), the death of Bart, and Wally disappearing and reappearing with older children was when the Flash character lost it's charm and I blame it on more on DC than the character himself. Wally's kids being aged came out of nowhere and I think it's a lame explanation saying they aged faster for whatever reason. I accepted their birth in the Flash: Blitz, but to age them and to have Wally act as if he has been a father figure for years seems to be pushed on the reader. It takes a parent a few months or even a year to get use to being a parent.

If anything with Barry, he has one legit liability and that is Iris. Wally has a whole family to watch over and their lives are endanger because the kids partake in crime fighting like their father. I guess you can view it as Barry has more freedom than Wally, just because Barry does not have a family. Does it make Wally a bad character? No way, its up to the writer to be creative and make it all work. And I am all right with Bart being with the Legion in Legion of 3 Worlds.

 

[Darthphere]

Don't get me wrong, though, I'm not heaping any praises on DC for what they've contrived here. They had a chance to get it right with Bart, and epic failed, and then they had a chance to get it right with Wally, and flinched. The fact that I say, "Hey, maybe this will bring them out of the mire that they've dug themselves into" is not a compliment. Anticipation, certainly, but not a compliment.

And I love Wally's kids and will choke a b**** if they get undone somehow.

This is what we call having your cake, and eating it too.

Or what I prefer to call, trying to give us the double stuff. You can't write long ass essays defending something, and then come back 5 posts later and be like "Well it's not like I really like it or anything...."

It's like reading a Dread Bendis comic review and have him come back and say "But Bendis is a decent writer."

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Thanks. Y'know, something that people forget is that at the time the decision was made to cancel Kyle's book reboot it under Hal, Kyle's book was pretty ****ing bad. I superlove Kyle more than all of you combined and you all know this so there, but the GL line was indistinct and floundering at the time. The same is true for the Flash, I'm sorry, it doesn't matter how much you like Peyer, it's still indistinct and floundering. Maybe GL could have been revitalized without Hal, but they chose to do it with him, and it worked. And this is not me taking that old wearisome "sales = quality" approach, it's completely apparent in the series and reactions. It absolutely worked.

And there would not have been a Sinestro Corps with without Hal, Sinestro is Hal's rogue and not Kyle's, or anyone else's. There may have been some other form of some other Corps, but it would have been very different than what we got. Would it have worked as much? Who the **** knows?

I agree with some of what you said before, in that the supporters are not generally worse off except in terms of mainstream name recognition, but I don't think I follow your argument here. Yeah, the Flash line is floundering. But how is the logical solution to that sweeping Wally--whom most readers still identify as the main Flash--under the rug and starting fresh with Barry? It's a solution, since putting Johns and Van Sciver on anything will result in huge sales, but is it the best solution? I don't think so. It's a regression, plain and simple. Barry had his time, those stories are still out there for everyone to enjoy, and Wally is cusping on an almost unprecedented character evolution in comics--the journey from sidekick all the way to parenthood. I say "cusping" even though he's technically already there because, let's face it, it hasn't been handled all that well. With Waid, the kids overpowered everything else, and with Peyer, the kids feel like more of a minor subplot with the hyper-aging thing instead of a balanced, cohesive part of Wally's life.

Still, that's no cause to just bring Barry back and shuffle Wally off to someplace else--probably Titans, under Winick, which is basically a fate worse than death anyway. Why not just put Johns and Van Sciver on Wally's book? Why regress with a Barry mini-series and eventual, inevitable ongoing series when they could progress the Flash legacy overall? It's this regressive thought process that's endemic of many of DC's current problems, as far as I'm concerned. When in doubt, the current regime's response is to look backward and see how they can basically redo something that stands out in their minds. Barry's return, while I'm sure it'll be done well and sell like hotcakes, is another example of that. I miss the DC universe of just half a decade ago, where progress was the order of the day. Sure, they had a whole lot of misses, but at least they were trying instead of resorting to the safety net of the past at every turn.

 

[Darthphere]

I agree with some of what you said before, in that the supporters are not generally worse off except in terms of mainstream name recognition, but I don't think I follow your argument here. Yeah, the Flash line is floundering. But how is the logical solution to that sweeping Wally--whom most readers still identify as the main Flash--under the rug and starting fresh with Barry? It's a solution, since putting Johns and Van Sciver on anything will result in huge sales, but is it the best solution? I don't think so. It's a regression, plain and simple. Barry had his time, those stories are still out there for everyone to enjoy, and Wally is cusping on an almost unprecedented character evolution in comics--the journey from sidekick all the way to parenthood. I say "cusping" even though he's technically already there because, let's face it, it hasn't been handled all that well. With Waid, the kids overpowered everything else, and with Peyer, the kids feel like more of a minor subplot with the hyper-aging thing instead of a balanced, cohesive part of Wally's life.

Still, that's no cause to just bring Barry back and shuffle Wally off to someplace else--probably Titans, under Winick, which is basically a fate worse than death anyway. Why not just put Johns and Van Sciver on Wally's book? Why regress with a Barry mini-series and eventual, inevitable ongoing series when they could progress the Flash legacy overall? It's this regressive thought process that's endemic of many of DC's current problems, as far as I'm concerned. When in doubt, the current regime's response is to look backward and see how they can basically redo something that stands out in their minds. Barry's return, while I'm sure it'll be done well and sell like hotcakes, is another example of that. I miss the DC universe of just half a decade ago, where progress was the order of the day. Sure, they had a whole lot of misses, but at least they were trying instead of resorting to the safety net of the past at every turn.

Far too logical Corp.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Logical for us, maybe. Logic for Johns is, "Barry'sbackwhycan'tIwriteBarryinsteadBarryBarryBarryBARRY!!!"

 

[Darthphere]

****, they might kick Wally out of JLA and put in Barry. Why not right.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

"Might"?

 

[Darthphere]

Damn, you're right. He gone.

I'm going to make a pitch to DC where I write a book with all of DC's shunned characters, Wally, Kyle, possibly Nightwing...wait.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Kyle should join the Titans. Every team should have its own GL. Guy can go with the Teen Titans and smack those b****es back into shape.

 

[The Major]

Is it unfounded? I just think it's a little less black and white than, bam, Barry's back, boom, Wally's ****ed.

Not with DC's track record it isn't.

And hippie_hunter needs to get out of my brain, because I was just about to say what he just said. Smith didn't write Connor for five years before having to resurrect Ollie (and Smith didn't neglect Connor, either). And I have to reiterate, for all that Johns obviously doesn't appreciate Kyle, he didn't neglect Kyle. It wasn't his obligation to include Kyle in Hal's book if Kyle was being included in other places, no more than it was Gibbons' obligation to include Kyle in the GLC while he was busy elsewhere.

Kyle Rayner was the star of the Green Lantern franchise for over ten years.

He had a solo ongoing which lated all that time. It wasn't a blockbuster like Johns', of course, but it still didn't have low enough sales to get canceled. It was a great entertaining series, though. The only reason it did get canceled was to relaunch it for Hal's return after Rebirth.

Johns' may not have the obligation to have Kyle as the star of his series it shouldn't have meant he was forced into being a supporting player in the DCU without a title of his own IMO. Sure it was in high profile things but they were short term projects not ongoing series or stories where he was made to live up to his potential.

Not that appearing in other places means Kyle couldn't be in the solo GL title. Popular characters in super-hero comics have done this for decades.

And DC hasn't neglected Kyle either; Kyle has appeared, consistently and steadily, throughout all the times that Hal has been back.

As a guest star or supporting player in titles which were nowhere near the quality Hal's title had been given. He can do that with an ongoing, too.

Kyle's showing in SCW was bad, and Countdown was bad, though in the latter case DC saw fit to give Kyle a big role in what they thought was going to be a big series.

A big role in bad stories does not mean they're treating him well.

Especially after getting kicked off his own title.

But taking point in Rann/Thanagar War, was that bad?

He shared the spotlight with Hawkman and Adam Strange in that mini-series IIRC.

Becoming Ion and having his own twelve-issue miniseries, was that bad?

That was meant to be an ongoing. The only reason it stopped at 12 is because Johns' had Kyle possessed by Parallax. I have no clue why they had to cancel that for that reason. Many characters have been possessed or killed then came back in their own title has gone on without a glitch.

Kyle never got a chance to restart this series at any point, either.

What made him unique in the GLC, as Ion, was taken from him not long after. He's just an ordinary GL now.

Currently costarring in one of the best books -- if not the best book, period -- DC is producing, does it sound like Kyle is having that rough of a time in the longterm, even with three other primary GLs?

Yes, it is.

It's a backward step as a character. he should have got his own solo series. Being in the GLC title doesn't mean he can't do that. He's been on teams before while having his own ongoing.

And is being a supporting character really as damaging as all that? Most of my favorite characters either are ensemble characters or have spent a bunch of time being one instead of a headliner. Is Jay really that much less of a character than Wally? Is Alan that much less than Hal?

When the character is a star of a successful solo title, it is.

Why must Kyle settle for sharing a book with the GLC when they could have given his own ongoing title?

And I don't understand why people keep on listening to DiDio like he actually knows what he's talking about. Yes, I agree, it's a large concern that DC is just going to throw Barry into all the big teams to replace Wally, make him the "face" of the Flash like Hal is the "face" of the GLs, thereby continuing the streak of the DCU being as uninteresting as it's been for the past years 'cause everything old is old again instead of the evolving, vibrant place that it should be.

It would be evolving if Hal and Kyle were treated equally upon his return. They aren't.

There is more then enough room in the GL comics for it to have a Kyle "face" and Hal "face".

Or, it could be that this in itself is the progress and the shakeup that the Flashes need. Hal's return did great things for the GL line; that's undeniable, that's the fact, the last year of Green Lantern stories have been the most exciting part of the DCU (though, it has to be said, the competition wasn't stiff). Likewise Ollie's return brought a lot of good things into the fore, reconnected a lot of relations and paved tons of new ones. Wally has been the main Flash for twenty years. That's longer than most of us have been reading comics, longer than almost any other modern legacy has lasted, the supposedly sacrosanct status quo that everyone was comfortable with; when Bart took over, everyone's reaction was "Grrr, Wally had better come back."

Hal's GL could have been done with Kyle with minor changes. It's Johns' name, along with A-list artists, which is making Hal a hit now. The story quality is great, too. Much better then Kyle's own ongoing ever was.

Kyle has never had this much attention from A-list creators or publicity in his own title. Ever.

The only time he's had anywhere near that treatment is in Morrison's JLA. He wasn't the star of that. Hal is in John's run.

The main reason Bart didn't work was because they altered him beyond recognition for that series. he was acting more like emo Wally in that series not Bart. If I'm gonna read a Flash title will a character like Wally it in I'd take the real thing with Wally. The first arc wasn't good, either. Then they killed Bart in the second.

Unlike most legacies in the DCU GL can have all of them active while not diluting the franchise. This is no reason Kyle has to slum it while Hal takes the glory.

The hilarity here of course is that this, all of this, is the exact reaction Barry fans had when Wally took over. It's the exact reaction when Kyle took over from Hal, just as it's the exact reaction when Hal took over from Kyle, or Connor from Ollie, and vice versa, and the Questions, and the Blue Beetles, and the Dr. Fates, and the lists go on and on and on. Comic book readers have a clinically averse reaction to change; we like to pretend that it only applies to bad change, but the truth is that it doesn't. I, for one, would rather not be That Comic Book Guy. At the end of the day, if Wally's character is not actively being trod on by fear demons, if this lands us all with good stories and a more dynamic universe, I have nothing to complain about. Nothing at all.

Change is only good if it moves forward. Hal isn't moving the GL series forward, Johns' is.

Many of these legacies you mentioned weren't bad in premise just execution. They didn't need to kill all these character off either for the new people to start their super-hero identities.