The Official Flash thread

[Aristotle]

probably Titans, under Winick, which is basically a fate worse than death anyway.

No, definitely Titans. That's what Dan DiDio said when he was asked where Wally would be appearing post-FC. I don't know why Brian thinks DiDio doesn't know what books he's publishing, but if anyone knows where characters will be appearing, Dan DiDio does. And he hasn't lied to us at cons very often. If anything, he tells us too much.

I miss the DC universe of just half a decade ago, where progress was the order of the day. Sure, they had a whole lot of misses, but at least they were trying instead of resorting to the safety net of the past at every turn.

For 10-12 years, DC tried innovation, new ideas, and progress. No one ****in' bought it. When you're busting your balls to come up with new and cool ****, and succeeding on every creative level on almost every book you're putting out for over a decade, but the competition still kicks your ass in sales every month by rehashing ****ty X-overs every three months and hackneyed Avengers trash, you probably start getting the idea that rehashed ****ty crossovers and hackneyed trash is the ticket to big money. You probably get a little bit ****in' tired of busting your balls for nothing.

Logical for us, maybe. Logic for Johns is, "Barry'sbackwhycan'tIwriteBarryinsteadBarryBarryBarryBARRY!!!"

Such a great writer, such a stupid man.

 

[Aristotle]

As long as Johns writes him after Flash: Rebirth, then I will have faith in that Barry is in good hands.

You know, I don't think anyone was worried that he wouldn't be.

 

[BrianWilly]

Yes. As a matter of fact, we are. Because we learn from history, and we notice that Kyle does not have his own book. He co-has a book. Not the same thing.

Kyle had his own book, and is currently co-having a book that not only happens to be one of the best books out there today, but is also one of the best things that has happened for both him and Guy...y'know, lest we forget, there are other Lanterns besides Kyle and Hal. If readers aren't excited for the possibility of a Flash Corps, well, they really should be.

Nobody said it didn't make business sense. We said we didn't like the decision.

No, not just business sense. Critical/creative sense as well, and one has only to look over to the GL titles to see what that has done creatively for DC. You yourself, along with dozens and dozens of other posters here, have reaped the benefits of that, obviously and vocally so. How many posts have there been in the last couple of months from random people going "Hey SCW was really cool, help me get into the GL titles/which trades should I pick up/which book is better/etc etc"? While the only negative remarks have been from people like me calling out his glaringly infantile treatment of Kyle...which isn't at all likely to happen with Wally.

Compare that kind of reaction to, y'know, every single other title that DC has been putting out. GL Rebirth and its followups have gotten DC better critical press than any of the current Crises or Countdowns combined, either online or in conventions, and hell if they aren't painfully aware of it.

 

[The Major]

Kyle had his own book,

Shouldn't this be a reason for him to have a new series?

and is currently co-having a book that not only happens to be one of the best books out there today,

Kyle could be there and have his own ongoing title. It wouldn't change a thing.

but is also one of the best things that has happened for both him and Guy...

It the best thing that's happened for Guy. For Kyle it's a demotion.

y'know, lest we forget, there are other Lanterns besides Kyle and Hal.

Those two have proven they have the readers and long term success for solo titles.

No, not just business sense.

It's good business not to give a character his own new ongoing when they know the audience is there who will buy it?

Critical/creative sense as well, and one has only to look over to the GL titles to see what that has done creatively for DC.

How is it good creatively for Kyle to be on Oa and not on Earth?

You yourself, along with dozens and dozens of other posters here, have reaped the benefits of that, obviously and vocally so. How many posts have there been in the last couple of months from random people going "Hey SCW was really cool, help me get into the GL titles/which trades should I pick up/which book is better/etc etc"?

Sinestro Corps. War could have been just as great with a Kyle solo title involved in the story or Kyle in Hal's position.

While the only negative remarks have been from people like me calling out his glaringly infantile treatment of Kyle...which isn't at all likely to happen with Wally.

I agree.

Compare that kind of reaction to, y'know, every single other title that DC has been putting out.

Not sure what you're getting at with this.

GL Rebirth and its followups have gotten DC better critical press than any of the current Crises or Countdowns combined, either online or in conventions, and hell if they aren't painfully aware of it.

No-one's denying Rebirth was a success. It doesn't explain why Kyle doesn't have his own series.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Because it's painfully obvious that Hal > Kyle

 

[The Major]

Because it's painfully obvious that Hal > Kyle

To some people, yes.

It's still not a good reason he can't have his own ongoing with A-list creative team. Kyle having that won't diminish Hal's return.

The GL comics are big enough for both of them to co-exist as peers.

 

[hippie_hunter]

That was a joke you know

I would love to see a Kyle ongoing.

 

[The Major]

Sorry HH.

 

[BrianWilly]

KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE KYLE

...Yes, I know. You don't think Kyle is being treated the way he deserves unless he happens to have his own headlining solo book. I get it. I also disagree. A lot of the best work done on both Kyle and Wally have been done on team books. And all this "Hal has his own book so Kyle needs one too" just sounds like a horrible case of comparing penis sizes. I don't need Kyle to star in his own book all by himself to like him more than Hal.

 

[Darthphere]

...Yes, I know. You don't think Kyle is being treated the way he deserves unless he happens to have his own headlining solo book. I get it. I also disagree. A lot of the best work done on both Kyle and Wally have been done on team books. And all this "Hal has his own book so Kyle needs one too" just sounds like a horrible case of comparing penis sizes. I don't need Kyle to star in his own book all by himself to like him more than Hal.

But if you like Kyle more than Hal wouldn't you want a book all for himself?


Logic wins tonight!

 

[BrianWilly]

I'd want one. I don't need one. And I certainly don't need one just because Hal has one and Kyle doesn't, as if some great internal cosmic balance has been disturbed and must be rectified or else I can no longer enjoy my Kyle time in peace or something. My gods, even without his current great showing in GL Corps, we're talking about someone who actually had a solo series just last year.

Switch off that *****ebag autopilot if you even can, Darth. I've said this to Dread and I'll say the same to you: just because I'm a fan of something doesn't somehow mean that I've abandoned all reason about it.

We've gone laughably off-topic, in any case.

 

[The Major]

...Yes, I know. You don't think Kyle is being treated the way he deserves unless he happens to have his own headlining solo book.

This would be bad how exactly?

I get it. I also disagree.

Fair enough.

A lot of the best work done on both Kyle and Wally have been done on team books.

I disagree. Wally has had much better treatment with two critically acclaimed definitive runs by A-list writers, one of which has had a few A-list artists with them, in his solo title then Kyle. Rayner has had great moments to shine but they are far fewer then Wally's.

And all this "Hal has his own book so Kyle needs one too" just sounds like a horrible case of comparing penis sizes.

You've already admitted DC putting an A-lister on Hal's book worked. Why can't this be done for Kyle? It's not comparing penis sized with these two characters its being treated as peers. We all know Hal would have the edge in the franchise with Johns' anyway. They don't have to get an A-lister for his title, though it sure can't hurt.

I don't need Kyle to star in his own book all by himself to like him more than Hal.

You may not but Kyle's respectable fan base does.

we're talking about someone who actually had a solo series just last year.

A series which was canceled for no reason and not given any other chances to flourish as a solo hero in any other form.

 

[BrianWilly]

I disagree. Wally has had much better treatment with two critically acclaimed definitive runs by A-list writers, one of which has had a few A-list artists with them, in his solo title then Kyle. Rayner has had great moments to shine but they are far fewer then Wally's.

Oh so now we're comparing Wally's books with Kyle's? Who's next? Batman? Come on, this is such petty bull****. I've enjoyed Kyle's stories just fine under Marz and Winick. Who frankly gives a damn if a writer is A-list or not so long as he's the best fit for a character? Johns is beyond A-list and I don't want him to touch Kyle (or a lot of characters) with a ten-foot pole.

You've already admitted DC putting an A-lister on Hal's book worked. Why can't this be done for Kyle? It's not comparing penis sized with these two characters its being treated as peers. We all know Hal would have the edge in the franchise with Johns' anyway. They don't have to get an A-lister for his title, though it sure can't hurt.

The fact that we're even bringing up Hal's name in every other sentence makes this completely about some petty macho competition, as if the only reason you even want Kyle to have an A-lister book is because Hal has one. The fact that you think of him sharing an excellent book with Guy as some sort of shameful position makes this entirely about wanting Kyle to have the biggest dick in the room, as if -- in your own words -- what's good enough for Guy is somehow not good enough for Kyle. Yeah, I would love for Kyle to have a solo book again at some point, but I don't need him to have one just because I'm jealous of some other character's success, or that I need him to be more successful than other characters.

You may not but Kyle's respectable fan base does.

Wow thanks for sharing. Now who's being pretentious?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Wow, that was weird. I wonder if every argument over the resurrection of a Silver Age character is going to morph into an argument over Hal vs. Kyle. I guess it makes sense, since Hal's return is looking like it'll be the prototypical example of displacing a legacy character for his predecessor.

 

[The Major]

Oh so now we're comparing Wally's books with Kyle's? Who's next? Batman?

I'm comparing him to Wally since you had bought up that they had been treated equally well by DC.

Come on, this is such petty bull****. I've enjoyed Kyle's stories just fine under Marz and Winick.

Marz is great with Kyle but he hasn't had as much success with GL as Johns' has with Hal.

Winnick's run is polarizing not critically acclaimed and I don't think he's ever been A-list.

I'm surprised an A-lister hasn't done his solo title yet. A Grant Morrison written Kyle solo title would be incredible. Marz and Winnick are good writers but they aren't at that level yet.

Who frankly gives a damn if a writer is A-list or not so long as he's the best fit for a character? Johns is beyond A-list and I don't want him to touch Kyle (or a lot of characters) with a ten-foot pole.

DC's A-list doesn't end with Johns. They could hire someone like Busiek, Simone or Morrison for Kyle's title.

A writer and artist are very influential on comic sales. They bring their fan bases with them.

It wasn't just HEAT fans who made Hal's GL title a hit. It was Johns. Reis, Pacheco and Van Sciver bought their own fan bases along form the ride, too.

We'll see if Hal can keep these readers once they leave his title.

The fact that we're even bringing up Hal's name in every other sentence makes this completely about some petty macho competition, as if the only reason you even want Kyle to have an A-lister book is because Hal has one.

I'm bringing up Hal's name since we're talking about Green Lantern. As of Rebirth the he's become the "face" of the comics. Theres no getting around that.

The only reason I want a Kyle solo is to read more stories about him on his own. An A-lister could keep that series more of a chance then a random creator. You can't argue with results. It's worked for Hal, why not for Kyle?

The fact that you think of him sharing an excellent book with Guy as some sort of shameful position makes this entirely about wanting Kyle to have the biggest dick in the room, as if -- in your own words -- what's good enough for Guy is somehow not good enough for Kyle.

A solo character who had his own series for a decade being thrown off their own title to a team book is a demotion.

Guy was never in Kyle's position.

I'd have been wanting "Kyle to have the biggest dick in the room" if I wanted them to get rid of Jordan. I haven't been suggesting that. Kyle could have his own stories in the GL universe without interfering with Johns' plans.

Yeah, I would love for Kyle to have a solo book again at some point, but I don't need him to have one just because I'm jealous of some other character's success, or that I need him to be more successful than other characters.

I'm not jealous of Hal's success at all. It's great he's been revived into a relevant character again.

It doesn't mean Kyle can't have it, as well.

There is no reason both characters can't be treated as peers. Though I doubt that'll happen any time soon.

Not that is it unusual for the Big Two to hire A-listers for franchises with more then one title, either.

Wow thanks for sharing. Now who's being pretentious?

You don't think Kyle has a large enough fan base to support an ongoing?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

A Grant Morrison written Kyle solo title would be incredible.

Drool-worthy.

 

[BrianWilly]

My mistake; I read that wrong, and thought that you were saying that respectable Kyle fans want a series while...disrespectable fans don't.

We're really just broken-recording ourselves now, and 'tis boring.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, especially since this is all based on speculation. Some of us believe Wally will be shuffled off into obscurity--like Kyle, according to yet another sub-group of us--and others don't, but none of us will know until Flash: Rebirth actually comes out.

After getting over the initial lameness of Barry coming back at all, I've decided I'm going to read Flash: Rebirth, by the way. No one cares, but I figured I should let it be known so no one can call me hypocritical when I end up reading it later on.

 

[Doc Destruction]

How exactly is Kyle in obscurity when he co-stars in one of DC's best books right now???

 

[Darthphere]

How exactly is Kyle in obscurity when he co-stars in one of DC's best books right now???

What book is that?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Because, while GLC is good, it's not actually that relevant to anything. It's kind of off in its own part of the universe while the major happenings of the DC universe roll on by it. Kyle's probably not going to have much of a presence in Final Crisis either, given that Hal's on the cover of the first issue. It sends the message that Kyle's still around, but Hal's the 'important' GL. Same goes for Guy and, to a lesser extent, John, since he's still got some modicum of recognizability based on the TV show, and McDuffie and Busiek are both using him in JLA and Trinity, respectively.

 

[Anubis]

Gl Corps I think, but that can't be right.

 

[Darthphere]

Yeah, that's not high profile either. Wait, isn't that the book where Kyle got screwed over as well by Sodomy some ****.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That was the Sinestro Corps War, or, as I like to call it, Johns Pisses All Over Kyle Rayner (and Other Stuff Happens).

 

[Darthphere]

Yeah but that happened in GLC's tie-in, am I right?