The Official Flash thread

[Doc Destruction]

Oh my God, man...you need help. And decaffinated coffee. And common sense. And to take your head out of Kyle's ass.

 

[BrianWilly]

Don't worry, BW, I got you covered on this one too.

No, you really don't, but thanks for trying.

 

[The Major]

The Law of God.

LOL

No, really. What would be forcing them? Editorial? They would be unable to hold back making their favorites look good because of their position as a creator? The latter doesn't occur will all creators.

 

[Aristotle]

And to take your head out of Kyle's ass.

Because I want Kyle to have his own book?

 

[Aristotle]

LOL

No, really. What would be forcing them? Editorial? They would be unable to hold back making their favorites look good because of their position as a creator? The latter doesn't occur will all creators.

It's just the way it goes. I wasn't kidding. No creator has ever been truly successful at this.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Because I want Kyle to have his own book?

When you talk, it doesn't sound like WANT to me, it sounds like NEED. Which is just creepy.

And it's not like the character is being treated THAT badly. He's kicking ass in GLC. Try being a Spider-Man fan right about now.

 

[The Major]

It's just the way it goes. I wasn't kidding. No creator has ever been truly successful at this.

I'd think the company would desire only one "face" for a franchise being the main reason. Unless its Batman, Spider-man or Superman usually they never get a second title at all even when its possible it could work.

GL actually has a leg up on many rival comic franchises since they can have multiple characters with the same codename simultaneously without diluting the brand.

DC also has had success with characters "moving on" with other codenames while keeping their prior title with their previous codename a success, too (Nightwing & Robin). That's why it's more of a shame Kyle lost Ion. He could have easily become his own mini-franchise within the GLU.

Not that the creators don't have the abilities to make it happen.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It's just the way it goes. I wasn't kidding. No creator has ever been truly successful at this.

Brad Meltzer probably did it best in Green Arrow with Ollie and Connor, but even then it was very clearly Ollie's book with Connor as a supporter. Plus, Meltzer only wrote one arc, so it's not like he had to have Ollie and Connor cohabitate in the title role for long.

 

[BrianWilly]

Except that Hal already had his time. There was a fundamental difference in that the change was moving forward, while this change moves backward. If Kyle had been replaced by John as king-**** Green Lantern, I would be just fine with that. If Kyle had been replaced by Guy, I would have had a problem with it, but because it's Guy, not because of the change. If Kyle had been replaced by a completely new Lantern, I would not have had a problem with it, and would have been quite excited.

I'll believe it when I see it. To use your words, the entirety of DC fandom history as it pertains to legacy characters go shows otherwise. Some are much better accepted than others. Others are not accepted at all. But there is always, always, always unnecessary *****ing and moaning and pangs associated with this sort of change.

And I know this is gonna mess with your head, but I love Johns' Green Lantern run. I just wish it didn't have to mean that Kyle got sacrificed into oblivion.

Not sure why that would mess with my head seeing as how I knew that already.

See, no one here has said it's a bad book. I know I read it every month. But it's too bad that it's the only place we see Kyle Rayner.

If it's a good book, I don't understand why it would ever be a bad thing to see someone in it. Kyle is not the only character who has ever only appeared in one book, you know.

Ah but I forget, Kyle can't be demoted like that. He deserves so much more than other characters.

That's because Guy Gardner is a lame-ass character. Guy Gardner should only be on team books the way Wolverine should only be on team books.

Yuh huh.

Yeah. Of course we want Kyle to do well. We're Kyle fans. We want him to outshine Vibe too.

It's petty bull****. "We love Kyle! EVERYONE ELSE CAN SUCK IT." If that's what a Kyle fan is, then I guess you're right, I'm not a Kyle fan.

Kyle was a part of SCW just to get his ass handed to him. He was utterly useless. Hal, meanwhile, has clearly taken the role of "Top Green Lantern" on Earth, appearing in JLA until only recently, and is soon to get a Justice League that he runs with Ollie. That status is down to the fact that he is the only GL with a book.

Again, you're talking about treatment and not presence. Kyle's presence was paramount in SCW even if his treatment was trash. He had two whole one-shots dedicated to his struggles during that event, which no other character had. Not even Sinestro, or Superboy-Prime!

Almost no interaction with the mainline DCU, which for the most part never even appeared to notice the events of Countdown even in its earlier stages when it still had promise and potential. Kyle's very presence in the book was due to his status as an outsider and a character that wasn't "supposed" to exist, which is clearly how DC editorial feels about him.

...

I doggedly defended Sinestro Corps War, too, which is what makes your attempt at straw-manning me all the more silly. Countdown is not as bad as people make it seem it was, at least not until the end, and Sin Corps War was downright awesome, but none of that changes the fact that DC editorial doesn't give a **** about Kyle and doesn't do anything productive with him, and when they do, they put him on a project with no oversight or direction and cast him as a character who isn't even supposed to exist.

Again, just because it's en vogue to ***** about it now -- which as you all know I was doing before any one of you were -- doesn't mean Countdown wasn't significant. It absolutely was. It was DC's most publicized event that they threw all their manpower into. It sucked ass. But it was significant, moreso than any other book on the shelves last year. I hate Countdown and it has damaged more of my favorites than I could care to name possibly beyond repair, but to claim that DC didn't care about Kyle so they put him as a regular on their most significant and publicized book is just ridiculous.

So your whole point has been that I can look forward to Wally starring in a directionless weekly series that ends up being all but relegated to Elseworlds status and getting his ass handed to him and sidelined by one of Barry's villains in the first issue of the first major Flash event post-Rebirth? Oh, well, that makes it all better then.

I'm pretty sure that's not even remotely close to what I suggested.

Wait, you're seriously going to pretend that Kyle would not be the star of the Green Lantern book, would not be the Green Lantern of choice for at least one of the two Justice Leagues, and would not be appearing in most of the major DCU events, if Hal hadn't been Rebirthed? Are you seriously going to pretend that, if Rebirth hadn't happened, someone else just would have magically kicked Kyle to the curb?

After Hal was reborn Kyle was featured as the main GL in a significant Infinite Crisis tie-in, starred in the one-shot associated with that which led into his own twelve-issue miniseries, leading him into participating in the big critically-acclaimed GL event and then into DC's publicity blitz weekly series event of the year, and is now currently starring in one of the best books on the shelf for the longterm which deal with as much GL mythos as Hal's book does. You all act like DC has completely forgotten about Kyle once Hal came back, which is inaccurate and unfair. He has not been quite as "spotlighted" as Hal, which I couldn't possibly give less a **** about, but he has not been forgotten, or neglected. That's the fact.

Has he been mistreated? Yes. At least two of those examples above were gross mistreatments of Kyle. But the whole point is that this would not happen with Wally, because Johns likes Wally a whole lot more than Kyle. And so my whole point, right from the start, is that if Wally is not going to be neglected and he's not going to be mistreated, then he would not do so bad with the return of Barry after all.

That make enough sense for you?

 

[fifthfiend]

I'll believe it when I see it. To use your words, the entirety of DC fandom history as it pertains to legacy characters go shows otherwise. Some are much better accepted than others. Others are not accepted at all. But there is always, always, always unnecessary *****ing and moaning and pangs associated with this sort of change.

Except that if the changes aren't accepted, due to being ****ty, then the *****ing and moaning wasn't unnecessary. (Except inasmuch as all comics-related discussion is ultimately unnecessary, but hey, we all keep showing up here.)

 

[The Eagle Host]

"We love Kyle! EVERYONE ELSE CAN SUCK IT." If that's what a Kyle fan is, then I guess you're right, I'm not a Kyle fan.

Well, there you go. Now we know what BrianWilly's problem is.

 

[Doc Destruction]

He's not obsessed or insane?

 

[The Eagle Host]

Well, he is both, but they're unrelated.

 

[hippie_hunter]

PISSING CONTEST! MACHO CHARACTER JEALOUSY!

How is that a pissing contest. I'm totally in favor of Hal having the main Green Lantern book by Johns, a Kyle ongoing by Marz, and Green Lantern Corps by Tomasi. That would be so freaking awesome and perfect.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It'd be nice if Kyle could be Ion again, while we're at it. Sodam Yat is just a waste of space.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

I had so much hope for Sodam too. "Daxamite with Ion powers, no way he can suck right?" Wrong

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, I think the Superman-like powers and uber-GL powers are just the appetizer--his real power is clearly to suck more than anyone else possibly could with all of the advantages he has.

 

[Aristotle]

How is that a pissing contest. I'm totally in favor of Hal having the main Green Lantern book by Johns, a Kyle ongoing by Marz, and Green Lantern Corps by Tomasi. That would be so freaking awesome and perfect.

Joke.

 

[Kitsune]

It'd be nice if Kyle could be Ion again, while we're at it. Sodam Yat is just a waste of space.

So you're not a Sodamite

 

[TheCorpulent1]

No. God can go scour someone else for their sins.

 

[The Major]

How is that a pissing contest. I'm totally in favor of Hal having the main Green Lantern book by Johns, a Kyle ongoing by Marz, and Green Lantern Corps by Tomasi. That would be so freaking awesome and perfect.

I'd prefer Busiek or Morrison over Marz for a Kyle solo title.

 

[The Major]

Yeah, I think the Superman-like powers and uber-GL powers are just the appetizer--his real power is clearly to suck more than anyone else possibly could with all of the advantages he has.

Yat has potential. No character is unsalvagable. I like where Tomasi is going with his courtship with Arisia.

His origin/fight with Superman Prime in GLC #25 was great.

DC should give him a mini-series or something. He needs some solo stories to flesh him out more.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'd prefer Busiek or Morrison over Marz for a Kyle solo title.

I'd prefer Morrison if he were in epic, awesome JLA-mode and not cryptic, weird-ass Batman-mode.

 

[The Major]

I'd prefer Morrison if he were in epic, awesome JLA-mode and not cryptic, weird-ass Batman-mode.

With Kyle I'd have thought epic space opera would be a natural direction.

 

[Aristotle]

I'd prefer Morrison if he were in epic, awesome JLA-mode and not cryptic, weird-ass Batman-mode.

I think the complete failure of The Authority and Wildcats was Morrison telling us he's done with awesome JLA-mode for awhile, and wants to focus on weird-ass Batman/Seaguy/pretty much everything he's ever done except JLA and a couple other DC projects-mode.