)
Not when you use that bias to discredit me.
I just did. What now?
t:
A good story is a good story but I dont want history being dismissed for the sake of a good story. Death means nothing in comics anymore because its never permanent.
History isn't being dismissed. He still died. If they said he never died then it would have been erased. This is adding to the history.
This isnt a fix all excuse no matter how many times people drop it. This is the DC universe I cant remember when something like Barry coming back wouldnt be explored in other titles.
Apparently not enough because for years Barry fans complained that he wasn't getting any face time, and they were right. I'd be perfectly happy with an All Star Flash featuring Barry or Flash: Classified, or something to that effect, but Rebirth is just as good if not better. At least Kyle and Wally fans still get to read their fave characters, something Hal and Barry fans were denied for the longest time.
I dont see why that matters. I ahve already stated that my reasoning for Wally in a Flash movie is his far more interesting story, not his seniority in the suit.
His story is not more interesting, only more convulted and will be harder to explain and make sense of without Barry being established first.
The same iconography that is shared and upheld by Wally so that doesnt matter.
Does matter. Without Barry, there would be none of that iconography. Wally is just an extension of it. It can exist entirely without him, but it cannot exist without Barry.
Yes it does matter. Because you keep pretending that Barry was the first EVER, and you think that makes him better but he started as a ripoff of Jay.
No, he was not first
EVER, but as far as the contemporary Flash goes, yes, he was first. Until they reinvent Flash for a third time, a la no connection to Barry or anything related to Flash as he is currently established, Barry will be first in the contemporary Flash saga. As I said, chronologically, Jay is first. It goes like this:
Flash 1:A Jay Garrick
Flash 2:A Barry Allen (the reinvention)
Flash 2:B Wally West (the continuation of the reinvention,
not a reinvention)
Flash 2:C Bart Allen (continuation of continuation of reinvention,
not a reinvention)
Flash 3:A would be a complete reinvention of Flash 2.
You do realize that they arnt real people and didnt make the decision for what costume they wore, right?
Of course. They also don't make the decision to come back from the dead. But in the ficticious universe in which they exist I'm sure they decide what clothes they wear, i. e., Wally chose to wear his dead uncle's suit.
No these characters came back from the dead. Bucky was said to never have died. Its different and while Winter Soldier sucked it was at least forward thinking instead of "Look who miraculously returned"
You talk about something being erased from history,
there's your retcon - they said Bucky had died, but they changed that and said he never really died. Barry still died but he came back.
Which means Wally stepping aside for Barry. If Wally stays as the lead hero in the Flash comic, I'll stop the argument, but if hes returning to sidekick mode to Barry than thats stupid.
Who's the purist now? Barry and Hal are back, and you want things to remain the way they were.
And Wally isn't going to be going into sidekick mode, I'm sure you'll understand that if for the next five years the Flash comics mainly focus on Barry (Wally will probably be featured in a second book, like Kyle in GL Corps) as he'll need to be re-established since he's been gone for the past 20+ years - of course he'll need to be the main focus.
Whys that? Wallys wife is becoming one of the leaders in Speed Force study (at least in private) and his kids have powers of their own. Fighting crime is like game night to them.
Yeah, and the comic has become the Incredibles and sales are lower than ever. Mark Waid couldn't even make sense of it. Wally's at a dead end. Gone is the
real Wally from the mid-late 90s.
Yes I would have preferred Hal dead, and no it didnt stop me from enjoying what Johns has done (and I have already admitted to picking up Flash Rebirth). No, Im not particularly fond of John but he wasnt a bad character either he got the boot as soon as Hal came back. Thank god for the scope of Geoffs writing of Guy and Kyle wouldnt be featured either.
What makes you say that? The plan was for them to stick around but just add Hal into the mix.
Very full of yourself. So am I but not that much lol.
So sidekicks are my thing because I think Wally's transition from sidekick to hero was interesting and different from most heroes?
No, because you always defend the transitions no matter who the character.
First of all your making crazy assumptions on my thoughts on sidekicks.
Steve is easily more interesting than Bucky thats for sure.
A few more Bucky comics and you might not think so. People said the same thing about Wally when he began as Flash. Give it time.
If Flash is not familiar it doesnt really where they start. They could think that the comic began with a sidekick becoming a hero. Its a position to be creative and not cookie cutter origin stories. You out Wally at the first accident instead of the too conincidental second, you explain the history of the Flash through the Flash museum, a symbol of Flashs public approval since we are not dealing with an outlaw vigilante but a citys beloved hero. Wally fights his predessors foes finding himself at first physically and psychologically lesser to them and finding it hard to live up to Barry in the publics eye. Drama, dynamic, different than any superhero movie thus far.
I like your idea but it's still wrong for the first movie. Because people are not familiar makes it all the more important if they get it right the
first time. They need to make the DC films compatible with each other if they're going to lead into JLA. Hal is GL in the GL film = Barry is Flash in the Flash film. And, again, having Barry already established gives Wally's story more weight and makes it much more potent. In order to get Wally his powers, I'd probably do this:
1. You know how Flash can do that speed leech/lend thing? Well what if he lent speed to Wally but somehow it ends up sticking with him - cuz he's meant to have it or because of some accident while using the speed or some other means?
2. When Barry dies, he lends all of his speed to The Flash ring or something. He gives it to Wally. Similar to GL but it's the best I could come up with for the moment. Unless they really make sidekicks cool and make sense of Wally's accident, Wally's story will need some major retooling.
Wally has worked phenomonaly as a hero for years. Johns himself has already written Abin as a deeper character. The characters will always work best when written well not written as a certain position/role.
Wally has worked well as a hero, and so have some of the others. I'm just saying Barry works
best as
THE FLASH
I dont believe any of that. The legacy idea is very viable and different from anything else. Not everything has to be spelled out to people. They know what superheroes are and Barry is as generic a superhero has they come. He gets powers, wears tights, fights crime, than puts his hands on his waist and says "Have a nice day" with a big cheezy grin.
The idea is viable but doesn't work unless there's something to base it on, which is why Barry has to be established first, whether you think he's generic or not. God, how many ****ing times do I have to say it?
No.
I dont see how any of that makes him more relevant. Because CSI? Stupid. Because of the values against crime? Wallys is so much better. He spent time with the Rogues, tried to rehabilitated instead of incarcerate even befriended a few. Id much rather see that relationship with the Rogues, that alone is also differnt from what we've seen. Or bringing back a character just to see how times have changes and he can meet Tim Drake? Thats ridiculous. You could bring a hell of a lot of people back for the same reason.
Apparently not to Geoff and CO. Barry spent time with the Rogues too, only he wasn't fooled into believing it was a game, like Wally and Jay were. And Barry
is more relevant today than he was 20 years ago, and it is because of the immense popularity his forensic job has gained. They can tell stories now with that element that they couldn't tell 20 years ago. Barry's the only character who has that job, which is another reason why Barry should be Flash in the film, his CSI job would work great on screen.
They just added a family and havent even scratched the surface of the possibilities.
The family shtick hasn't worked. What do you think the "possibilities" are?
Barrys iconography is shared by Wally so that doesnt matter. Jays not even in the picture
The iconography cannot exist without Barry. It can exist without Wally and/or Bart. Barry made The Flash so identifiable, Wally is just an extension of that, so it does matter.
You constantly imply Wally is bad becaus he out on his dead uncles suit.
Not bad, just lame. He really needs to be his own man. Of course people will compare him to Barry when he's wearing his clothes, he's just asking for criticism doing that.
Maybe not but that what happened.I doubt many creators create characters so that they can kill them in 30 years.
Of course not. So why not bring him back?
Its not about the story its about Wally, the character. Any adventure Barry could get into Wally can get into but he carries with him (a better sense of humor, a will to rehabilitate the Rogues, and the legacy of his predessor to protect).
Better sense of humor is just a matter of opinion. Sure, there wasn't much personality for Barry during the silver age, but that's also true for
EVERY OTHER CHARACTER, including Wally West, Hal Jordan, Batman, etc, something you seem to continually over look. As I said, there's no reason why Barry can't be as well characterized as Wally and interesting stories can't be told with him. New Frontier had some great characterization for Barry, Grant Morrison's been doing a fine job in Final crisis with him, and I'm sure Geoff will take it into other universes with Rebirth. Barry wanted to rehabililitate the Rogues too, he just knew it wasn't a game. And without Barry, there is no legacy. You can't just glance over him in 2 flashbacks.
Yeah which is why I support Wally and the legacy treatment because a good writer can make it interesting and differentiates itself from the rest of them.
Same reason why I support Barry getting the first film so they can estabish the
FOUNDATION and then build the legacy.
Wally didnt wait for anyone to die, he was kid flash before Barry died so that part of Flash (along with the rest of the pros of Barry) are upheld but Wally.
He didn't become Flash until Barry died, ergo, he waited for Barry to
die to become Flash.
Wally doesn't even have half the "pros" of Barry. His story stinks. Some of what he lacks:
Barry's founding of the JLA, discovering the multiverse, creating the suit/legacy, discovering the powers, the forensics job, the Rogues, the Reverse Flash, the origin, being best friends with Hal Jordan.....the list goes on.
I think waiting to pass the mantle is a bad idea. You dont get nearly enough stories in the movies as you do the comics so as soon as you are introduced to a character, he's gone. I dont like suggestions that say do Hal for the first one and Kyle for the second because it doesnt make sense to move the characters around so quickly.
Who said that was gonna happen in the second movie? Wally and kyle can be introduced in those films, but don't have to take over until the third films and it leaves the door open for the next time the franchise is visited years later, with a Hal and barry series already established they can move on to Kyle and Wally. I like the idea.
Just because Barry wasnt created to die doesnt mean it can't die.
Doesn't mean he can't come back either.
Thats a stupid reason. Their may not be a Flash legacy without Barry to start it, but theres no legacy without Wally to take it. Barry would just be a lone hero.
That is true but that's also why Barry needs to be established first.
The legacy is determined more so by Wally than Barry and if the legacy motive is to be exploited they should start with Wally taking the reigns.
No. They need to establish the foundation of the legacy and
then let Wally take the reigns.
But I'm pretty much done explaining myself, and wont be responding anymore because this is so damn circular.
Like a drive by shooting.
I dont know how many times I can respond to the the same argument: "But barry came first, and hes my favorite"
Tantamount to your "but Wally is second and he's my favorite, I think Wally is
so much better" argument.
