The Official Flash Thread

[Webhead2006]

yea i would still perfer for myself for origin film to just stick with one villain with maybe setting up a second one. So you can spend more time to develop characters. Then leave the rouges as a more later on down the road deal. But if they could work the rouges in an origin film and develop characters well i am all for it. I just as i said think it would be smarter to still we less characters for first film. So you can set up flash's world and events. Then expand on it in sequels.

 

[cerealkiller182]

That sounds so labored, like trying to adapt The Flash Encyclopedia. The best way to develop characters and set up the physics/reality of The Flash is by showing it in action, just like every other movie. These seemingly fanmade limitations stop creativity and out of the box thinking. The Rogues were always more interesting together, except for maybe Cold, but as the ringleader of the Rogues he brought a lot to that chemsitry

 

[Evil Twin]

That's well and good, but I don't think its worth the story telling problems that comes with too many villains, the movie will become over crowded if you put too many villains, too many villains ruined the later Batman movies in the 90s and Spider-Man 3.

There should be 3 if 4 is a problem, I said 4 max, but 3 is what I was set on personally. That's already a lot of villains. Plus with an origin story, you don't have time for a ton of villains, there is important character work with Flash himself that needs to be done, before you have 5 villains fighting for the spot light. The Flash movie shouldn't be 2 and half hours long, it should be around 2 hours. So trying to develop Flash's origin and Flash as a character, while trying to focus on 5 villains, is way too much for a first movie.

I again repeat, structure and roles are important. Not the amount of characters. Simply counting the amount of characters doesn't tell us all that much. There are plenty of ensemble casts that are much bigger. Heck, the Ocean's Eleven films have a bigger cast.

You're right, you can't flesh out all the Rogues fully and spend time with the Flash. But, there's no reason that two or three can't be given the same level of depth as Scarecrow, Falcone, Ken Watanabe, Rutger Hauer, Flass, and the cops chasing Batman in Begins. Or Jay and Wally have to be any more developed than Gordon, Alfred, or Lucius.

 

[protocida]

I agree that the Rogues should try to kill the Flash throught the movie, but, during the movie, it'd be cool to have a scene where Captain Cold spares a cop whom he could easily have killed and explaining to the Flash:

"I'm a thieve, not a murderer. What joy can I make from my money being hunted down by bloodthirsty citizens for killing someone that was only doing his job?"

 

[MadVillainy]

That sounds so labored, like trying to adapt The Flash Encyclopedia. The best way to develop characters and set up the physics/reality of The Flash is by showing it in action, just like every other movie.

how?

 

[The Overlord]

I again repeat, structure and roles are important. Not the amount of characters. Simply counting the amount of characters doesn't tell us all that much. There are plenty of ensemble casts that are much bigger. Heck, the Ocean's Eleven films have a bigger cast.

Excpet Ocean's 11 didn't go into the background of one of the characters in an extensive manner. Developing Flash's background and having 5 villains to focus on is too much for the first film.

You're right, you can't flesh out all the Rogues fully and spend time with the Flash. But, there's no reason that two or three can't be given the same level of depth as Scarecrow, Falcone, Ken Watanabe, Rutger Hauer, Flass, and the cops chasing Batman in Begins. Or Jay and Wally have to be any more developed than Gordon, Alfred, or Lucius.

Most of those villains, like Flass, the cops and the evil corporate guy were very minor characters and only got a scene or two, not to mention their inclusion didn't affect the special effects budget.

This is a different, if the Rogues are the main villains, the Big bad of the picture, they will need a lot screen time to develop into that role, so the fewer rogues you have, the more you can focus on them and the more interesting they will be.

That sounds so labored, like trying to adapt The Flash Encyclopedia. The best way to develop characters and set up the physics/reality of The Flash is by showing it in action, just like every other movie. These seemingly fanmade limitations stop creativity and out of the box thinking. The Rogues were always more interesting together, except for maybe Cold, but as the ringleader of the Rogues he brought a lot to that chemsitry

I do think Flash should be somewhat less powerful in the first film, so its more believable that the Rogues can stand up to him, without relying on plot induced stupidity.

 

[Evil Twin]

So some guy with bombs is a threat to Flash? Isn't Flash really, really fast and the shrapnel would be moving in slow motion to him? So why bother with Capt Boomerang then, technically an ex IRA terrorist would be more of threat then him, because he would know more about bombs then Capt Boomerang.

Capt Boomerang doesn't work as any sort serious villain in movie, in sequel he could be a joke villain that Flash deals with in the beginning of movie, before Flash moves on to a bigger threat.

Maybe he can be a headliner in a Suicide Squad movie, but he won't work in that role in a Flash movie.

Captain Boomerang works once, when he has the element of surprise. When you don't know what the boomerang is going to do. It looks harmless. Surprise.

Which is why you want to use Boomerang early in Flash's career. Before he gets a lot of experience and starts moving around closer to the speed of light. Flash will need a little toning down in his first movie, probably to early Silver Age levels, rather than the faster than light, molecule vibrating, Speed Force levels of later.

The use of the element of surprise is typical for most of "the Rogues". None of them move at superspeed, so you have to set up some sort of element of surprise or coordination with them. Cold can set invisible cold fields, but that's uncinematic. Heat Wave is a guy with a flamethrower, how's that any better than a guy with grenades? Really, of "The Rogues" I'd suggest that only Mirror Master and Weather Wizard are true stand up threats. Maybe Pied Piper, but frankly he's not really interesting until he reforms, and sound isn't my first choice for a cinematic weapon, although doable.

When looking at the subgroup that I'd call "The Rogues" I think it's easier to make Captain Boomerang a threat than Trickster, Golden Glider, and the Top. Perhaps than Pied Piper too. For all the mocking of Rainbow Raider, rightfully, at least he shoots optic blasts.

 

[cerealkiller182]

how?

Putting more effort in telling a great story instead putting so much effort into Flash "bullet points"

 

[Webhead2006]

well what ever they do if/when a flash film does finally make it into production stage i hope they treat all the characters well, and develop them all good enough.

 

[protocida]

The Top is a superspeed-spinner telekinethical ghost, how's that not badass?

 

[Evil Twin]

Most of those villains, like Flass, the cops and the evil corporate guy were very minor characters and only got a scene or two, not to mention their inclusion didn't affect the special effects budget.

Special effects are only important when they're fighting the Flash. There's no reason for scenes fleshing out the personalities of the Rogues to involve special effects. Heck, Captain Cold probably has the most cost effective supervillain costume in movie history, basically just a parka and glasses, with most of the others not far behind. The business suits Christian Bale wore in the Batman films might cost more than costuming the Rogues.

The cops were the centerpiece of one of the biggest 2nd act setpieces of modern superhero films, the chase around Gotham with Batman getting Rachel to the antidote. I'd suggest that's likely a lot more expensive than any scene of the Rogues interacting.

Just modern structure tells us that there's likely to be a big 2nd act setpiece and a big 3rd act setpiece. Something to open the film, the origin, an end of first act action sequence, and probably something in Act II involving Iris. Whether there are 1 or several Rogues involved in the Act II and III setpieces, it probably doesn't have that big of an effect on the budget.

 

[The Overlord]

Captain Boomerang works once, when he has the element of surprise. When you don't know what the boomerang is going to do. It looks harmless. Surprise.

Barry's a trained cop, who should already be familiar with these guys already, so there should be no element of surprise working for Capt Boomerang, otherwise Barry looks like a total idiot.

Which is why you want to use Boomerang early in Flash's career. Before he gets a lot of experience and starts moving around closer to the speed of light. Flash will need a little toning down in his first movie, probably to early Silver Age levels, rather than the faster than light, molecule vibrating, Speed Force levels of later.

The use of the element of surprise is typical for most of "the Rogues". None of them move at superspeed, so you have to set up some sort of element of surprise or coordination with them. Cold can set invisible cold fields, but that's uncinematic. Heat Wave is a guy with a flamethrower, how's that any better than a guy with grenades? Really, of "The Rogues" I'd suggest that only Mirror Master and Weather Wizard are true stand up threats. Maybe Pied Piper, but frankly he's not really interesting until he reforms, and sound isn't my first choice for a cinematic weapon, although doable.

And boomerangs are really cool cinematic devices?

Heat Wave has a better gimmick, better name and better look then capt Boomerang. Capt boomerang gimmick isn't bombs its boomerangs and its kinda of stupid gimmick against the Flash.

When looking at the subgroup that I'd call "The Rogues" I think it's easier to make Captain Boomerang a threat than Trickster, Golden Glider, and the Top. Perhaps than Pied Piper too. For all the mocking of Rainbow Raider, rightfully, at least he shoots optic blasts.

Heat Wave or Weather Wizard works way better then any of those characters. I don't see why we have to have every rogue every in these films.

Special effects are only important when they're fighting the Flash. There's no reason for scenes fleshing out the personalities of the Rogues to involve special effects. Heck, Captain Cold probably has the most cost effective supervillain costume in movie history, basically just a parka and glasses, with most of the others not far behind. The business suits Christian Bale wore in the Batman films might cost more than costuming the Rogues.

The cops were the centerpiece of one of the biggest 2nd act setpieces of modern superhero films, the chase around Gotham with Batman getting Rachel to the antidote. I'd suggest that's likely a lot more expensive than any scene of the Rogues interacting.

Just modern structure tells us that there's likely to be a big 2nd act setpiece and a big 3rd act setpiece. Something to open the film, the origin, an end of first act action sequence, and probably something in Act II involving Iris. Whether there are 1 or several Rogues involved in the Act II and III setpieces, it probably doesn't have that big of an effect on the budget.

So Weather wizard's weather effects or Mirror Master's powers or Captain Cold ice effects would cost less then that chase?

Depending on their powers, it is a potential special effects drain to have them on screen. I would say it depends on which rogues you use and how many show up.

The thing you seemed to miss again, is that you are suggesting the Rogues as a group the Big bad for this movie, so they need a fair amount of screen time to develop for that role for them, if you have too many of them, with no one villain have a clear Big Bad role and all of them fighting for screen time all at once and been under developed because there are too amny to focus on at aonce, they will not be compelling, so you either need to limit the number to around 3 or do what X-Men 1 did, make one of the villains the Big bad (Magneto) give him most of the screen time and have the rest just as henchmen.

 

[cerealkiller182]

BUt the charm of the Rogues are how badass they are in regards to how silly they look, at least at this point in continuity. I think the silliness adds more than people realize

 

[The Overlord]

BUt the charm of the Rogues are how badass they are in regards to how silly they look, at least at this point in continuity. I think the silliness adds more than people realize

That doesn't mean it works on the silver screen or that the general public will buy it.

I don't think the general public will think a guy who dresses up like a flight attendant and throws boomerangs at a guy who moves at super speed, is a "bad ass". They will think he is an idiot.

 

[Evil Twin]

Barry's a trained cop, who should already be familiar with these guys already, so there should be no element of surprise working for Capt Boomerang, otherwise Barry looks like a total idiot.

Barry doesn't have eyes in the back of his head. Which is why he can be surprised without looking like a doofus.

And boomerangs are really cool cinematic devices?

Maybe. Maybe not. I'd presume you'd get the production designers and prop department involved and gussy them up with impressive looking circuitry and fake rocket thrusters and the like.

Might be more fun visually than a glorified gun of some sort.

Heat Wave has a better gimmick, better name and better look then capt Boomerang. Capt boomerang gimmick isn't bombs its boomerangs and its kinda of stupid gimmick against the Flash.

OTOH, Boomerang has a stronger personality than Heat Wave and there's a potential spinoff involved which makes him more attractive to include in a movie than Heat Wave.

Heat Wave or Weather Wizard works way better then any of those characters. I don't see why we have to have every rogue every in these films

I wouldn't suggest including everyone. I'm just suggesting the way you'd prioritize the decisionmaking process as to which would work best on film.

I'd readily agree that Cold and Mirror Master are #1 and #1A with a bullet. Weather Wizard is the clearcut next tier. And then you weigh plusses and minusses with the Rogues below that. Personality vs. threat level. What works best thematically? Cinematically?

 

[SuperFerret]

They will if you make him a "bad ass". While not everyone can appreciate badassery that's not ridiculously overt (which tends to be the worst variety, just look at how forced it is in the God of War games), many people do recognize understated badassery.

 

[The Overlord]

They will if you make him a "bad ass". While not everyone can appreciate badassery that's not ridiculously overt (which tends to be the worst variety, just look at how forced it is in the God of War games), many people do recognize understated badassery.

And how exactly do you "make him bad ass" on screen?

Barry doesn't have eyes in the back of his head. Which is why he can be surprised without looking like a doofus.

Considering how fast flash is supposed be, it would seem like a doofus if he would stay still long for enough for Capt Boomerang to throw a boomerang at him and have it hit, I mean he should be zipping along well fighting the Rogues, so him just grappling with Cold along for Boomerang to tag him would make him look stupid. At least Heat Wave can do attacks that affect the whole area.

Maybe. Maybe not. I'd presume you'd get the production designers and prop department involved and gussy them up with impressive looking circuitry and fake rocket thrusters and the like.

Might be more fun visually than a glorified gun of some sort.

And I think fire is more cinematic then silly looking boomerangs with rocket jets on them.

OTOH, Boomerang has a stronger personality than Heat Wave and there's a potential spinoff involved which makes him more attractive to include in a movie than Heat Wave.

Considering there already two villains with strong personality, we don't need a third hog screen time, especially one with a rather uncinematic gimmick.

Plus they often get around characters with weak personalities in a comic book movie by changing their personality a bit or creating a composite character (Dr. Octopus is more sympathetic in the movies then in the comics, General Zod was much more forceful and bombastic in the in Superman II then he was in the comics of the time, movie Whiplash is going to be composite of Whiplash and Crimson Dynamo, with some new elements thrown in, Colonel William Stryker was composite of Rev. William Stryker and Professor Thorton. etc.)

So I don't think Heat Wave having a "weak" personality is any real concern, he doesn't need a strong personality in the first film and they can tweak his personality as need be.

I wouldn't suggest including everyone. I'm just suggesting the way you'd prioritize the decisionmaking process as to which would work best on film.

Yes and I'm prioritizing Capt Boomerang out of the film, personally.

I'd readily agree that Cold and Mirror Master are #1 and #1A with a bullet. Weather Wizard is the clearcut next tier. And then you weigh plusses and minusses with the Rogues below that. Personality vs. threat level. What works best thematically? Cinematically?

I don't see how Capt Boomerang works thematically or cinematically in a Flash film and he really doesn't need to be in one if he is just going to show up in a Suicide Squad movie anyway, they will likely set up all the characters in that movie internally. I doubt they will put Deadshot in a batman movie just to set him up in a Suicide Squad movie, so why do they need to have Capt Boomerang in a Flash movie to set him up for a SS movie? Will they need to make a Martian Manhunter movie with Plastique as the villain, just to set up her role in a SS movie?

 

[SuperFerret]

Don't try to, it'll be forced. Write the character according to who he is, and it'll come. With the Rogues, their appeal is their character, not their powers and gadgets.

 

[The Overlord]

Don't try to, it'll be forced. Write the character according to who he is, and it'll come. With the Rogues, their appeal is their character, not their powers and gadgets.

And how is Capt Boomerang's personality supposed to come into play in a movie where you have to cover the hero's origin and you have 4 or 5 villains fighting for screen time?

You haven't answered my question, exactly how would Capt Boomerang be a "bad ass" on the silver screen?

 

[Evil Twin]

Considering how fast flash is supposed be, it would seem like a doofus if he would stay still long for enough for Capt Boomerang to throw a boomerang at him and have it hit, I mean he should be zipping along well fighting the Rogues, so him just grappling with Cold along for Boomerang to tag him would make him look stupid. At least Heat Wave can do attacks that affect the whole area.

The trick is to fool the audience. You give The Flash a big hero moment. Have the public applaud. The music swell. Barry, like the comic book fan he is, get into the moment. And, boom!, Captain Boomerang strikes. The spectators scatter in panic. Barry is dazed.

There's your action.

Considering there already two villains with strong personality, we don't need a third hog screen time, especially one with a rather uncinematic gimmick.

But we do need comic relief. Other than Trickster, Boomerang fits that bill in spades.

And, frankly, I find the fact that Boomerang has a strong personality is likely to make it easier to fit him in. What do you do with Heat Wave, other than make him Cold's opponent? The fact that he's a pyro, isn't of much use in character moments.

There's really no need for Boomerang to be more than a sarcastic Greek chorus in the Rogue scenes and get in on some action when its conventient to the plot. He's along for the ride, not a plot mover and shaker.

Plus they often get around characters with weak personalities in a comic book movie by changing their personality a bit or creating a composite character (Dr. Octopus is more sympathetic in the movies then in the comics, General Zod was much more forceful and bombastic in the in Superman II then he was in the comics of the time, movie Whiplash is going to be composite of Whiplash and Crimson Dynamo, with some new elements thrown in, Colonel William Stryker was composite of Rev. William Stryker and Professor Thorton. etc.)


So I don't think Heat Wave having a "weak" personality is any real concern, he doesn't need a strong personality in the first film and they can tweak his personality as need be.

Or you can just use a guy with a strong personality who can get it across easily. Boomerang's perhaps the absolute best rogue in terms of interactions. If colorful personalities is one of your goals for the Rogues, then Boomerang is at the top of the heap. I can very easily picture him as the Mr. Pink of the Rogues.

And, if colorful group interactions isn't one of you goals, then why use multiple Rogues at all? Just go with Mirror Master.

I don't see how Capt Boomerang works thematically or cinematically in a Flash film and he really doesn't need to be in one if he is just going to show up in a Suicide Squad movie anyway, they will likely set up all the characters in that movie internally. I doubt they will put Deadshot in a batman movie just to set him up in a Suicide Squad movie, so why do they need to have Capt Boomerang in a Flash movie to set him up for a SS movie? Will they need to make a Martian Manhunter movie with Plastique as the villain, just to set up her role in a SS movie?

What's the theme? If the theme is "appearances are deceiving" or "think fast" then Boomerang is a better villain than the rather more direct Heat Wave. If "obsessions" is your theme, then Heat Wave is your choice.

Again, I wouldn't put Boomerang in the movie just to set up a Suicide Squad movie, but it would be one of the considerations I made. Or if Russell Crowe said he'd portray Captain Boomerang on a bet.

 

[cerealkiller182]

That doesn't mean it works on the silver screen or that the general public will buy it.

I don't think the general public will think a guy who dresses up like a flight attendant and throws boomerangs at a guy who moves at super speed, is a "bad ass". They will think he is an idiot.

But that is The Rogues. If you change it, its not the Rogues anymore. How you look doesnt make you a badass, its how you act. There wasnt a lot of hype going into Star Wars, in fact most thought it would bomb and looked stupid, but now Darth Vader, a robot with a Nazi helmet and a breathing problem, is considered the biggest badass villain. Why? Because of the persona.

There is some irony to The Rogues which makes them work great as characters. People get irony.

 

[SuperFerret]

And how is Capt Boomerang's personality supposed to come into play in a movie where you have to cover the hero's origin and you have 4 or 5 villains fighting for screen time?

You haven't answered my question, exactly how would Capt Boomerang be a "bad ass" on the silver screen?

The origin is simple, and the villains, being the Rogues, would undoubtedly have scenes where they interact with each other, thus revealing their personality.

And unless you know nothing about Boomerang, it's easy to make him a badass. He's a guy who's honed his skill in a single weapon to a degree that while the weapon itself isn't up to par with, say, a firearm, in his hands it's not only a formidible weapon, but something that can take on the fastest man alive.

 

[The Overlord]

The trick is to fool the audience. You give The Flash a big hero moment. Have the public applaud. The music swell. Barry, like the comic book fan he is, get into the moment. And, boom!, Captain Boomerang strikes. The spectators scatter in panic. Barry is dazed.

There's your action.

I still Barry would look stupid getting hit by Boomerang, he would look like a moron if he's goofing around to get by something like a boomerang.

But we do need comic relief. Other than Trickster, Boomerang fits that bill in spades.

Or Barry can have some of Wally's sense of humor.

I don't see why we need another villain just for comic relief. There are tons of movies without comic relief villains, so I don't see that he is needed. Batman didn't have a comic relief villain, neither did X-Men.

And, frankly, I find the fact that Boomerang has a strong personality is likely to make it easier to fit him in. What do you do with Heat Wave, other than make him Cold's opponent? The fact that he's a pyro, isn't of much use in character moments.

Again you can tweak him and again I think fire is more cinematic then boomerangs.

There's really no need for Boomerang to be more than a sarcastic Greek chorus in the Rogue scenes and get in on some action when its conventient to the plot. He's along for the ride, not a plot mover and shaker.

That makes he seem kinda pointless, just another character trying to take screen time.

Or you can just use a guy with a strong personality who can get it across easily. Boomerang's perhaps the absolute best rogue in terms of interactions. If colorful personalities is one of your goals for the Rogues, then Boomerang is at the top of the heap. I can very easily picture him as the Mr. Pink of the Rogues.

I personally don't think his personality is so compelling that he has to be in the film. Ultimately I think Mirror Master and Capt Cold should get the lion share of character development, so another strong personality is just a waste of screen time and again I don't his personality is compelling enough make him a necessity.

I mean Capt Boomerang is one of those villains who got killed off and no has bothered

And, if colorful group interactions isn't one of you goals, then why use multiple Rogues at all? Just go with Mirror Master.

That is not a bad idea. There is a difference between having enough interesting villains to have interesting interactions and so many that the villains are uncompelling.

What's the theme? If the theme is "appearances are deceiving" or "think fast" then Boomerang is a better villain than the rather more direct Heat Wave. If "obsessions" is your theme, then Heat Wave is your choice.

Obsessions is cooler theme in my opinion.

Again, I wouldn't put Boomerang in the movie just to set up a Suicide Squad movie, but it would be one of the considerations I made. Or if Russell Crowe said he'd portray Captain Boomerang on a bet.

Why can't Capt Boomerang have his chance to shine in a Suicide Squad movie
while the Flash movie focuses on other rogues? Everyone wins there.

The origin is simple, and the villains, being the Rogues, would undoubtedly have scenes where they interact with each other, thus revealing their personality.

Except if you have too many Rogues they will all be fighting for screen time and be underdeveloped. Too many villains is what ruined Spider-Man 3.

And unless you know nothing about Boomerang, it's easy to make him a badass. He's a guy who's honed his skill in a single weapon to a degree that while the weapon itself isn't up to par with, say, a firearm, in his hands it's not only a formidible weapon, but something that can take on the fastest man alive.

Flash having trouble with Capt Boomerang makes Flash look like a dumb ass instead of making Cap Boomerang looking like a "bad ass". To the audience it would just make the Flash look like an idiot.

Why not just save him for a Suicide Sqaud movie, he would be a more convincing bad ass if he is hitting terrorists with boomerangs instead of the fastest man alive.

 

[The Overlord]

I think there a few thing s being overlooked here"

1. Flash's rogues gallery is an acquired taste, they aren't the type of villains that almost everyone would find appealing right away, like Batman or Spider-Man's rogues gallery, if someone isn't up on Flash's mythos, they would likely think them a silly bunch. I mean they don't have time to show Capt Cold avenging his sister. So saying the all rogues will instantly be "awesome" doesn't factor in work you will have to do setting these guys up, because again, on the surface they are not as interesting as Spider-Man's or Batman's rogues gallery. Considering a lot of people would dismiss them because of their silly costumes and names, you have more of an uphill battle then with Batman or Spider-Man's rogues gallery.

2. Just because something is in the comic doesn't mean it should be in the movie. No comic book movie is exactly like the comic book that's impossible. So just because a character is "fun" doesn't mean they should be in the film, unless they serve a important purpose and just because Flash once chased the Turtle while he was escaping in row boat, doesn't mean you should put it a film. You should put in the most important scenes from the comics, not try and put in every scene from the comics, willy nilly in the film. I what find fun is good pacing and a plot that doesn't go off in a million different directions. Unless the characters and the scenes serve the main plot, you don't need them.

 

[Jahu-Momus]

Why can't it be Cold, Mirror Master and one other Rogue trying to help each other once they realize that they can't fight the Flash alone?

Secondly, I don't want the costumes in the movie. Cold can have his parka, but Mirror Master will definitely need a make over. The two of them together would be enough in my opinion.

So saying the all rogues will instantly be "awesome" doesn't factor in work you will have to do setting these guys up, because again, on the surface they are not as interesting as Spider-Man's or Batman's rogues gallery

That's not true, its just that they aren't as in the mainstream. Spiderman and Batman had tv shows and movies and cartoons to give different aspects of the villains. The Flash had one season in the 90's. Their Rogue rules are what makes them so interesting, they aren't necessarily hating the Flash. They dislike him because he ruins their plans, but respect him because if it wasn't him, it'd be someone else. I mean, their number one rule is never kill a speedster