The Official Flash Thread

[SuperFerret]

Why must you "set them up"? Barry gets his powers, becomes a superhero, where superheroes go, supervillains follow. You're acting like this needs to be an in depth character study on every character in the movie.

 

[The Overlord]

Why can't it be Cold, Mirror Master and one other Rogue trying to help each other once they realize that they can't fight the Flash alone?

Secondly, I don't want the costumes in the movie. Cold can have his parka, but Mirror Master will definitely need a make over. The two of them together would be enough in my opinion.



That's not true, its just that they aren't as in the mainstream. Spiderman and Batman had tv shows and movies and cartoons to give different aspects of the villains. The Flash had one season in the 90's. Their Rogue rules are what makes them so interesting, they aren't necessarily hating the Flash. They dislike him because he ruins their plans, but respect him because if it wasn't him, it'd be someone else. I mean, their number one rule is never kill a speedster

I have friends who are comic fans and they have no love for Flash's rogues gallery, a lot of more casual comic book fans would just snicker when they heard the name "Captain Cold".

Really now this whole rules thing only works if you buy into the whole Flash mythos, if you don't buy into the mythos, that will just make the Rogues seem less threatening then other villains and they will seem laughable because Flash is more powerful then them. So on the surface that are not nearly as appealing as Spider-Man or Batman's rogues gallery.

Again the rogues are an acquired taste and they do not have the same instant wow factor that Batman or Spider-Man's rogues gallery has.

Why must you "set them up"? Barry gets his powers, becomes a superhero, where superheroes go, supervillains follow. You're acting like this needs to be an in depth character study on every character in the movie.

You need to make them compelling in the space of the movie and if you have too many they will not be compelling because there will be too many of them frighting for screen time and they will be underdeveloped as a result, like the villains in Spider-Man 3.

 

[SuperFerret]

So a guy with a burlap sack on his head and a loon flying around in a green rip-off of a Jet Jaguar costume have instant wow factor even if you don't know who they are?

 

[Evil Twin]

What I sense is a profound difference in tone. As in asking why Boomerang is perceived as a "badass"? I envision something slightly darker than The Incredibles and I think Overlord envisions something slightly lighter than The Dark Knight.

As for why not rewrite the Rogues to pep up the Rogue interaction scenes? Why bother when there's a ready made character that does precisely that?

 

[The Overlord]

So a guy with a burlap sack on his head and a loon flying around in a green rip-off of a Jet Jaguar costume have instant wow factor even if you don't know who they are?

In terms of names and looks and media attention they got before the movies came out, yes.

What I sense is a profound difference in tone. As in asking why Boomerang is perceived as a "badass"? I envision something slightly darker than The Incredibles and I think Overlord envisions something slightly lighter than The Dark Knight.

Super Ferret said Capt Boomerang was a bad ass, so asked I why that was. Is that not fair question?

I never said Flash should be as dark as Dark Knight, I'm just saying certain things from the comics won't work, obviously it should be light hearted, like the spider-Man movies, but the spider-man movie did change from the comics and they didn't have Spider-Man chase Chameleon to a Russian

As for why not rewrite the Rogues to pep up the Rogue interaction scenes? Why bother when there's a ready made character that does precisely that?

Because he has a lame gimmick that isn't very cinematic? Personally besides his stint in the suicide Squad, I think he is kinda of lame villain frankly. I think his gimmick is lame and his name is lame and his costume is lame and think personality is alright, but think there tons villains that have more interesting personalities then him. I don't care for him as a Flash villain, frankly. I don't think he is that great.


Also you seem to be missing my point, that if you have too many villains it will make the plot overall convoluted, too many villains ruined Spider-Mn 3. That's why I think Capt Boomerang should be cut.

 

[SuperFerret]

What I sense is a profound difference in tone. As in asking why Boomerang is perceived as a "badass"? I envision something slightly darker than The Incredibles and I think Overlord envisions something slightly lighter than The Dark Knight.

As for why not rewrite the Rogues to pep up the Rogue interaction scenes? Why bother when there's a ready made character that does precisely that?

I think the tone for the Incredibles would work best for the Flash. In my opinion, the tone that The Dark Knight had isn't even right for Batman.

In terms of names and looks and media attention they got before the movies came out, yes.

And yet, there're people that are unfamiliar with comics who are talking about "that guy with the whips" in the Iron Man 2 trailer.

 

[The Overlord]

I think the tone for the Incredibles would work best for the Flash. In my opinion, the tone that The Dark Knight had isn't even right for Batman.

Your the one who talked about Capt Boomerang being a "bad ass" which is why Evil Twin thought I wanted Flash to be dark. Where did I say I wanted Flash to be that dark?

Also Dark Knight is the most well reviewed and successful super hero movie ever, so your opinion on this is a minority one.

And yet, there're people that are unfamiliar with comics who are talking about "that guy with the whips" in the Iron Man 2 trailer.

And they changed him completely from the comics, what's your point?

 

[SuperFerret]

Your the one who talked about Capt Boomerang being a "bad ass" which is why Evil Twin thought I wanted Flash to be dark. Where did I say I wanted Flash to be that dark?

Also Dark Knight is the most well reviewed and successful super hero movie ever, so your opinion on this is a minority one.




And they changed him completely from the comics, what's your point?

First, I wasn't the one that brought up a need for badassery.

Second, I never said that you said that the Flash should be dark.

Third, my opinion on the Dark Knight is all that matters, because I decide what I like and I what I don't. The reviews and success of the movie mean less than nothing to me. Also, the tone of the movie doesn't directly correlate with the quality or success of it.

Fourth, my point is that nobody knew who the hell Whiplash was, but suddenly, he's interesting. The same can be done with the Rogues and it won't matter that they don't have the name recognition that Spider-Man or Batman's enemies have.

 

[The Overlord]

First, I wasn't the one that brought up a need for badassery.

You were the one who mentioned it.

Second, I never said that you said that the Flash should be dark.


Third, my opinion on the Dark Knight is all that matters, because I decide what I like and I what I don't. The reviews and success of the movie mean less than nothing to me. Also, the tone of the movie doesn't directly correlate with the quality or success of it.

Ok, fine.

Fourth, my point is that nobody knew who the hell Whiplash was, but suddenly, he's interesting. The same can be done with the Rogues and it won't matter that they don't have the name recognition that Spider-Man or Batman's enemies have.

But the point is the changed a lot about Whiplash to make him work on screen, they just didn't we have to make Whiplash 100% faithful to comics, they clearly changed him a lot for the films, to the point where they mashed him together with another character from the comics. Plus Justin Hammer is likely going to be the Big bad of that film, not Whiplash.

No one says Iron Man's rogues gallery is the best, but the movie makers have work with they got.

The point is you often have change things about comic book villains to make them work on screen and sometimes villains who work in the comics don't work on screen. I'm not completely convinced Capt Boomerang would work on screen in a Flash movie, he was never my favorite villain. You at least have to change his costume, its not like Whiplash hung on to the same costume with the plume in the movie.

 

[Webhead2006]

yea its all about how they develop/write the characters to be. Then who brings the characters to life. Should they only do one or two villains or should they try to do a group i dont know. i would perfer myself to stick with just one or two for first film. So we can develop flash's world and all that. As for costumes i def want foes in their costumes, and sure most of flash's do have some silly looks, and i am sure some will probably get redesigned when they get to film and all that. But they should have it.

also i was wondering for all the flashs's jay/barry/wally/bart. Who was the very first super powered foe each fought?

 

[Webhead2006]

yea its all about how they develop/write the characters to be. Then who brings the characters to life. Should they only do one or two villains or should they try to do a group i dont know. i would perfer myself to stick with just one or two for first film. So we can develop flash's world and all that. As for costumes i def want foes in their costumes, and sure most of flash's do have some silly looks, and i am sure some will probably get redesigned when they get to film and all that. But they should have it.

also i was wondering for all the flashs's jay/barry/wally/bart. Who was the very first super powered foe each fought?

 

[The Overlord]

yea its all about how they develop/write the characters to be. Then who brings the characters to life. Should they only do one or two villains or should they try to do a group i dont know. i would perfer myself to stick with just one or two for first film. So we can develop flash's world and all that. As for costumes i def want foes in their costumes, and sure most of flash's do have some silly looks, and i am sure some will probably get redesigned when they get to film and all that. But they should have it.

also i was wondering for all the flashs's jay/barry/wally/bart. Who was the very first super powered foe each fought?

Considering other costumes have been changed for the movies: Dr. octopus, Magneto, Scarecrow, Whiplash, etc. I don't think the villain costumes have to be exactly the same as they are in the comics, it has depend what works best on screen. If exact translations of the costumes work, fine, if not, they will have to be changed.

Heck most of the X-Men didn't have their costumes in the movies.

 

[Evil Twin]

The key word I'd use with the Rogues is fun. And, yeah, you could start rewriting them to change their personalities, etc., but that doesn't always work and changes the dynamic that The Rogues already have. When in doubt, stick to what's already there is a good rule for adaptation.

There's a lot of discussion about their powers, but I think it's also important to balance their personalities. You don't want the Rogue scenes to basically be this:

MM: I say we should get Flash now.
Cold: I agree. Here's the plan. (Explains logical plan.)
MM: I don't like it. You should make me leader.
Cold: What do you say Weather Wizard?
WW: I'm with Captain Cold.

I think the Rogue scenes need as much thought and attention as the Rogue vs. Flash scenes. Show some give and take. Some humor. Some dysfunction.

As for costumes, one of the things that works is that Carmine Infantino created all these characters and they fit together in a cohesive visual aesthetic. So, I don't think you'd want to change too much. Or, if you do make changes, you want to think along those same lines.

Cold and Heat Wave have basic utilitarian functions to their design, which you'd want to maintain. You can tweak some things, belts, stitching, etc., but it probably should be consistent with whatever you do with Flash's costume.

I'd give Mirror Master's costume a screen test, but it's hard to say what I'd do. I do know lots of pouches for gadgets and such is something to consider.

Weather Wizard's costume is pretty blah. I do like the original Silver Age high collar and puffy sleeves look, as I think that would look more dynamic when the wind machines are turned on. But, that's something I might redesign from the ground up.

If you were to include Boomerang, really you only need to maintain the bandolier look. Maybe give him a boomerang pattern shirt unbuttoned enough to reveal his "manly" chest if you're playing up the walking pig idea.

 

[The Overlord]

The key word I'd use with the Rogues is fun. And, yeah, you could start rewriting them to change their personalities, etc., but that doesn't always work and changes the dynamic that The Rogues already have. When in doubt, stick to what's already there is a good rule for adaptation.

Again I think good pacing and cohesive and concise is fun for me.

There's a lot of discussion about their powers, but I think it's also important to balance their personalities. You don't want the Rogue scenes to basically be this:

MM: I say we should get Flash now.
Cold: I agree. Here's the plan. (Explains logical plan.)
MM: I don't like it. You should make me leader.
Cold: What do you say Weather Wizard?
WW: I'm with Captain Cold.

I think the Rogue scenes need as much thought and attention as the Rogue vs. Flash scenes. Show some give and take. Some humor. Some dysfunction.

Again if you have too many Rogues then they will be underdeveloped and the interactions will be dull if you don't give enough screen time to develop some of these guys and its easier to give these guys

I mean no offense but I didn't the think the interactions in your script were very strong and characters like WW and Capt Boomerang were pretty dull in it.

As for costumes, one of the things that works is that Carmine Infantino created all these characters and they fit together in a cohesive visual aesthetic. So, I don't think you'd want to change too much. Or, if you do make changes, you want to think along those same lines.

Again what works in comics doesn't always work on screen.

Cold and Heat Wave have basic utilitarian functions to their design, which you'd want to maintain. You can tweak some things, belts, stitching, etc., but it probably should be consistent with whatever you do with Flash's costume.

OK, that can work.

I'd give Mirror Master's costume a screen test, but it's hard to say what I'd do. I do know lots of pouches for gadgets and such is something to consider.

I never got his costume, what does a orange and green jump suit with a baggy green mask have to do with mirrors.

Weather Wizard's costume is pretty blah. I do like the original Silver Age high collar and puffy sleeves look, as I think that would look more dynamic when the wind machines are turned on. But, that's something I might redesign from the ground up.

I think a redesign would be the best

If you were to include Boomerang, really you only need to maintain the bandolier look. Maybe give him a boomerang pattern shirt unbuttoned enough to reveal his "manly" chest if you're playing up the walking pig idea.

Ok.

 

[Webhead2006]

yea i would hope who ever they pick as villain or villains they would look to see if their costumes could work in real life if not dont change it to drastically and all that. At least honnor the costumes and the characters.

 

[Evil Twin]

Again what works in comics doesn't always work on screen.

Agreed, but I was speaking more to the issue of visual consistency. Flash should look like The Flash and the Rogues should be part of that same world. I don't think anyone wants to see a movie where half of the characters look like they stepped out of a Carmine Infantino comic and half stepped out of The Matrix.

I agree that MM's costume doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But, I'm not sure what a mirror-related villain's costume looks like. Lots of reflective surfaces? Circular patterns? Silver?

I don't think you want something all black. You don't want to turn him into the Shadow Thief and you want him to fit with the rest of the world. Maybe something with fancy circruitry imprinted and some pouches?

It might be best just to play him up as someone without a lot of fashion sense if something obviously better doesn't present itself. Heck, use that as a joke if you have to. "You want to be leader? You can't even come up with a good costume."

 

[The Overlord]

Agreed, but I was speaking more to the issue of visual consistency. Flash should look like The Flash and the Rogues should be part of that same world. I don't think anyone wants to see a movie where half of the characters look like they stepped out of a Carmine Infantino comic and half stepped out of The Matrix.

I agree that MM's costume doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But, I'm not sure what a mirror-related villain's costume looks like. Lots of reflective surfaces? Circular patterns? Silver?

I don't think you want something all black. You don't want to turn him into the Shadow Thief and you want him to fit with the rest of the world. Maybe something with fancy circruitry imprinted and some pouches?

But the fact several other villains have had costumes changed somewhat for the silver screen: Magneto, Dr. Octopus, Whiplash and Scarecrow being prime examples.

So there is a precedent of changing a villains costume to make it work onscreen in a super hero movie.

Again if the comic book costume works on screen, there is no problem, if it doesn't there is a problem and you retain the spirit of the costume while changing it work on screen, that can be a tall order, sometimes.

It might be best just to play him up as someone without a lot of fashion sense if something obviously better doesn't present itself. Heck, use that as a joke if you have to. "You want to be leader? You can't even come up with a good costume."

But if Mirror Master is more or less the main villain of the piece and the other rogues don't take him seriously, how is the audience supposed take him seriously?

That's the problem with using the Rogues as a group, is the film needs a Big bad and if try to focus on too many rogues at once the Rogues as a group they will be too confused and diluted to be the big Bad, but if focus on MM and then have the others make jokes at his expense he loses some creditability as the big bad.

Ultimately I guess the question who would be the Big Bad of a Flash movie.

 

[Chris B]

I actually think guys like Captain Cold, Mirror Master, and Weather Wizard could actually work as the only villain in a Flash film. I understand that having a team is probably preferable, but if they end up doing a Barry Allen origin story, I think it would be better if they used just one villain. Two is possible, but it would be tricky.

If they're doing something where the Flash is already established, then they can go for a 3-5 member Rogues team

 

[Evil Twin]

But the fact several other villains have had costumes changed somewhat for the silver screen: Magneto, Dr. Octopus, Whiplash and Scarecrow being prime examples.

So there is a precedent of changing a villains costume to make it work onscreen in a super hero movie.

Again if the comic book costume works on screen, there is no problem, if it doesn't there is a problem and you retain the spirit of the costume while changing it work on screen, that can be a tall order, sometimes.



But if Mirror Master is more or less the main villain of the piece and the other rogues don't take him seriously, how is the audience supposed take him seriously?

That's the problem with using the Rogues as a group, is the film needs a Big bad and if try to focus on too many rogues at once the Rogues as a group they will be too confused and diluted to be the big Bad, but if focus on MM and then have the others make jokes at his expense he loses some creditability as the big bad.

Ultimately I guess the question who would be the Big Bad of a Flash movie.

I'm trying to figure out what you think we're disagreeing about in regards to costumes.

I think it's perfectly alright to reinvent the costumes if you have a better idea. With the only caveat that they have to look cohesive with the rest of the cast. If the new costume looks like it stepped out of The Matrix and the rest don't, then back to the drawing board.

I'm having a tough time just imagining what a new Mirror Master costume would be like though. Not because I'm particularly attached, it's generic supervillain 101, but because it's a non-obvious theme. Look back a couple of pages at that Flash Rogues cover I put up, and anyone could pick out Captain Cold, Heat Wave, Captain Boomerang, and Pied Piper if all they were told were the names. Weather Wizard at least has the wand thing going for him. (Gorilla Grodd (for obvious reasons), Abra Kadabra, and Reverse Flash are equally obvious.) Mirror Master really only has his mirror weapons that are distinctive.

As for someone making a crack at the expense of the villain, hey heroes do that all the time and the villain still is presented as a formidible foe. And if a fellow Rogue does it, well, payback's a ***** when the opportunity presents itself.

As for the Big Bad Rogue, I'd fit Mirror Master for that role. The power makes him the trickiest to overcome and gives him the opportunity to escape from Flash a couple of times, building up a rivalry. Even allowing them to interact a little without him being whisked off instantly to jail. If you're using Barry, MM is ideal for a locked room mystery setup, which is a classic DC thing, and would bring forensics/detective work into play. Heck, Identity Crisis boiled down to a locked room mystery. And, if you want the cathartic, kill the villain, send off, you'll probably avoid complaining fanboys if you use Scudder.

 

[The Overlord]

I'm trying to figure out what you think we're disagreeing about in regards to costumes.

I think it's perfectly alright to reinvent the costumes if you have a better idea. With the only caveat that they have to look cohesive with the rest of the cast. If the new costume looks like it stepped out of The Matrix and the rest don't, then back to the drawing board.

I'm having a tough time just imagining what a new Mirror Master costume would be like though. Not because I'm particularly attached, it's generic supervillain 101, but because it's a non-obvious theme. Look back a couple of pages at that Flash Rogues cover I put up, and anyone could pick out Captain Cold, Heat Wave, Captain Boomerang, and Pied Piper if all they were told were the names. Weather Wizard at least has the wand thing going for him. (Gorilla Grodd (for obvious reasons), Abra Kadabra, and Reverse Flash are equally obvious.) Mirror Master really only has his mirror weapons that are distinctive.

Well I'm not a Hollywood costume designer, so I can't just design a better costume but again if MM's costume isn't that distinctive, is there any good argument to keep it exactly the way it is? The problem with MM's costume is its kinda pointless, it has nothing to do with his theme, it serves no practical or aesthetics purpose and I don't think it work well on screen, so don't see why they can't try and change it to work better on screen.

As for someone making a crack at the expense of the villain, hey heroes do that all the time and the villain still is presented as a formidible foe. And if a fellow Rogue does it, well, payback's a ***** when the opportunity presents itself.

Well of course the hero is going to disrespect the villain, but if a villain is the Big Bad he should either have the respect of the other villains or should instantly punish someone who disrespected him.

Is Mirror Master supposed to be the Big bad of the film or not and if he isn't who is?

 

[protocida]

The Rogues' colorful costumes are part of their scheem: Make people think they're not as dangerous as they are.

 

[Evil Twin]

Well I'm not a Hollywood costume designer, so I can't just design a better costume but again if MM's costume isn't that distinctive, is there any good argument to keep it exactly the way it is? The problem with MM's costume is its kinda pointless, it has nothing to do with his theme, it serves no practical or aesthetics purpose and I don't think it work well on screen, so don't see why they can't try and change it to work better on screen.

It serves one aesthetics purpose, it fits in with the rest of the Rogues. But, I agree that it's certainly ripe for reinvention on the screen. But, into what?, is the big question. One that I don't think any of us have answers to at the moment.

I think I'll try to explain my position one more time. You don't have to use Carmine Infantino's costumes exactly and I'm sure that they'll be tweaked to take advantage of the big screen even if they are relatively faithful. OTOH, as an adaptation, I'd expect any new costumes to be Infantino-esque if at all possible.

And, I'm sure there will be other tweaks. If Captain Cold is used, I'm sure he'll take off his parka at times revealing a different look underneath.

 

[The Overlord]

The Rogues' colorful costumes are part of their scheem: Make people think they're not as dangerous as they are.

That doesn't mean MM comic book costume would work on screen, which is the most important thing.

Considering Barry is a cop and would already know about these guys, he would have to be a complete idiot to underestimate them just because of their costumes.

 

[protocida]

I'm not talking about Barry.

 

[The Overlord]

I'm not talking about Barry.

MM is already out of the league of any cop in Central city, so he doesn't need a silly costume to lure them into a false sense of security.

Whether costume works on screen or not is the most important factor.