The Official Flash Thread

[protocida]

I'm also not talking only about Mirror Master. All of them do it.

 

[The Overlord]

I'm also not talking only about Mirror Master. All of them do it.

That's kinda irrelevant though, whether all of them do it or not, doesn't mean all those costumes translate well from comic to screen. Again whether the costume works on screen or not is the ultimate concern.

 

[protocida]

They do. It's just make some minor tweaks.

 

[The Overlord]

They do. It's just make some minor tweaks.

I have my doubts, I personally don't see how Mirror Master's costume, a orange and green jumpsuit with a baggy green mask that has nothing to do with mirrors, works on screen.

Maybe they can screen test it, but if it fails the screen test, it will likely get ditched.

 

[protocida]

It's just accentuate or maybe change the colors and make if with some sleek material.

 

[cerealkiller182]

How do they not work on screen? They arnt supposed to look cool. The fact that the Rogues look stupid is part of it.

 

[terry78]

Yeah, I think taking a cue from Pixar would work best. Most of those movies, the characters have this appeal and aesthetic that's somewhat pleasing to the eye and kinda on the whimsical side, but villains like Hopper, Muntz and Syndrome.....they had no problems ****ing people up that got in their way or on their nerves. When they got mad, they became downright scary. It basically is like Joker, who in some of his more colorful, funny looking designs, is just as sadistic as the Ledger one.

 

[Chris B]

I was thinking, but could anyone else see Chris Evans as a possible choice for Barry Allen? He's capable of playing mature roles, so I he could play the dramatic side of the character while still infusing some comedic elements.

 

[Jahu-Momus]

I don't see Chris Evans as Barry, only because Barry is suppose to be the ultimate friend, where as I see Evans more so towards a Wally kind of guy. You know, brash and funny, not cheery.

 

[The Overlord]

How do they not work on screen? They arnt supposed to look cool. The fact that the Rogues look stupid is part of it.

But does that work on screen? If the villains if villains why will the audience take them seriously? Why would the general audience who know nothing of the Rogue, buy that?

The fact is in a movie the villain has to have a real sense of menace, the audience has to believe the villain is dangerous, so having a silly costume that looks stupid ans serves no purpose or have a code against killing the hero.

Anyway if the Rogues were in the first film, who would be the Big Bad in the film?

Yeah, I think taking a cue from Pixar would work best. Most of those movies, the characters have this appeal and aesthetic that's somewhat pleasing to the eye and kinda on the whimsical side, but villains like Hopper, Muntz and Syndrome.....they had no problems ****ing people up that got in their way or on their nerves. When they got mad, they became downright scary. It basically is like Joker, who in some of his more colorful, funny looking designs, is just as sadistic as the Ledger one.

I think over the top costumes work better in animation then live action, in general and I'm not sure Mirror Master's costume would be pleasing to the eye in live action. I just don't get his costume frankly.

 

[terry78]

^They all would be.

 

[The Overlord]

^They all would be.

Meh I have doubts about that in live action, I don't think Capt boomerang's male flight attendant costume was ever pleasing to eye ever and Weather Wizard costume is pretty unimpressive in general, its just a green jump suit, with little bits of yellow on it, its not in the latest GQ for villains issue.

Frankly I just don't get Mirror Master's costume, most villains wear costumes that serve a clear purpose or are thematic in same way, what purpose does MM's costume serve and how does it relate to mirrors? How did Sam Scudder even come up with that costume, its so random.

 

[Webhead2006]

So i was wondering as i asked on page 126, what was the very first super powered villain that each flash jay/barry/wally/bart took on when they first appeared as flash?

As for villains i still say being an origin movie and a movie to help promote the character to the masses that might not really know who the character is. I agree stick with one or 2 villains max. One could be the main lead baddie, and then one could be a secondary threat. Or they could build up the character so he becomes foe in future movie. Sorta like if they decided to go with weather wizard/mirror master as lead villain then the secondary one they could build up for a future movie could be professor zoom guy or something like that.

 

[Evil Twin]

So i was wondering as i asked on page 126, what was the very first super powered villain that each flash jay/barry/wally/bart took on when they first appeared as flash?

For Barry it's Captain Cold in Showcase #8 (May-June 1957), his second comic book. Unless you count The Turtle or Mazdan (evil scientist from the future) who appeared in Showcase #4. After that you had Mr. Element (Showcase #13, Dr. Alchemy in Showcase #14), Mirror Master in The Flash #105, Pied Piper and Gorilla Grodd in The Flash #106, Weather Wizard in The Flash #110, The Trickster in The Flash #113, and Captain Boomerang in The Flash #117. The Top, Abra Kadabra, and Heat Wave came shortly thereafter. It was a busy few years there as in addition to all those villains they introduced Elongated Man, Kid Flash, the Cosmic Treadmill, and Earth Two. One of the real bursts of creativity of the Silver Age.

BTW, if they do Barry, what do people say about Elongated Man showing up in the second movie. I think you could have fun with a theme of "fame". What happens to a guy when they start building museums in his honor while he's still alive? Does the media try to tear him down for no good reason?

I'm less sure on Jay, but the earliest one I can definitely trace is The Shade from Flash Comics #33 (September 1942). If there's an earlier one, he's probably forgotten for a reason.

For Wally, skipping over his Kid Flash era and Legends intro before his solo series, he fought Vandal Savage in Flash #1 and #2 and Kilg%re in Flash #3 and #4.

Bart had The Griffin. Yeah, I don't remember anything about him either.

 

[Evil Twin]

Weather Wizard costume is pretty unimpressive in general, its just a green jump suit, with little bits of yellow on it, its not in the latest GQ for villains issue.

To be fair, the bits of yellow form a stylized tornado, although it's certainly not obvious at first look. As I've said before, where I think Infantino went right in the original design was not making his costume skin tight so that it can billow in the weather he creates. I'd like to see the costume designers maintain that element. Color, design, symbols, I'm all open for change with.

I think that's behind the scarf that Boomerang wears too. It's an artistic help in showing the guy in motion. And, to be fair, the costume is pretty definitively a theme for a guy named Captain Boomerang. He's easy to pick out of a lineup at random if you just know his name.

I do think one advantage that the Rogues have though is that, in general, it looks like they're wearing actual clothes instead of being bodies with color imposed. (Batman's Golden Age foes generally have that going for them too.) And nothing as godawful as some of those 90s costumes with big guns and pouches everywhere.

FWIW, the following image is what I think is the most iconic grouping of "The Rogues". You don't necessarily have to use all, but I think that's the group you want to work with.

 

[Webhead2006]

thanks evil twin for the answer on super powered first foes for the flashs.

 

[terry78]

In the current comics, how do the writers make them a threat to Flash as of late? Obviously they're doing some damage if he still has to take time out to actually fight them. The main thing is that Flash NEEDS a rogue gallery because of his speed. Five dudes coming at you at once is the only way they could honestly attempt to take him out.

 

[Jahu-Momus]

That, plus they are incredibly coordinated in their attacks, so they plan alot of their attacks out. They aren't for anything random

 

[Evil Twin]

In the current comics, how do the writers make them a threat to Flash as of late? Obviously they're doing some damage if he still has to take time out to actually fight them. The main thing is that Flash NEEDS a rogue gallery because of his speed. Five dudes coming at you at once is the only way they could honestly attempt to take him out.

That was one of the ideas I had for a climax. Big prison break and then you have The Flash vs. practically every crook in Central City for a climax. Extends the idea exponentially.

 

[The Overlord]

In the current comics, how do the writers make them a threat to Flash as of late? Obviously they're doing some damage if he still has to take time out to actually fight them. The main thing is that Flash NEEDS a rogue gallery because of his speed. Five dudes coming at you at once is the only way they could honestly attempt to take him out.

The problem is though you have the origin and 5 villains fighting for screen time, how would that not a over bloated and confused production? Would the movie be over 2 hours long or something, because if you make the the first film over two hours and it will lose the audience. The first Flash movie should not be that long. Also if you have 5 villains fighting for screen time, how do you give them enough screen time to be compelling?

As for how the villain or villains can pose a threat to him, movie Flash should not be as fast as comic book Flash and considering he is just starting out in the film, he can be inexperienced and make some rookie mistakes that the villains can take advantage of.

No one has really answered I have asked a few times already, if there are 5 rogues in the movie, who would be in the Big bad of the picture? If its all them, how do give all them enough screen time to be compelling, if its just one of them who is the big bad, which one and why? Which villain out of the five would the plot forward and have the most chemistry with Flash?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bad
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigBad

 

[solidsnake86]

I agree with you overlord, five characters is a lot. It should be interesting to see what route they go with. If were talking a potential trilogy the only villain I can see having his own film is zoom, the question is, do you put him in an origin film or do you save him for a sequel.

Geoff Johns certainly has a tough task ahead of him, convincing the studio that captain cold isnt a mr. freeze rip off, explaining mirror masters gear and thats just the tip of the iceberg. Flash is going to be a unique one to crack.

 

[Evil Twin]

No one has really answered I have asked a few times already, if there are 5 rogues in the movie, who would be in the Big bad of the picture? If its all them, how do give all them enough screen time to be compelling, if its just one of them who is the big bad, which one and why? Which villain out of the five would the plot forward and have the most chemistry with Flash?

Big Bad = Last Rogue Standing.

And, I've laid out a number of reasons why I think Mirror Master is a natural for that.

And if you really think 5 supporting characters is a lot of develop in a 2 hour movie with action scenes, I think you need to watch a heck of a lot more movies. Any "men on a mission" movie, for instance. The Rogues are a group of "men on a mission". The mission: Take down the Flash. You must think The Dirty Dozen was some amazing feat of logistics. Or any heist caper. Or the majority of Quentin Tarantino movies which feature some scene of people talking around a table which develops the characters involved.

I think you have to throw numbers at the Flash in any scenario involving any of the Rogues since it's nearly impossible for there to be a believable fist fight with any of them. Or to avoid being repetitive. How do you separate 2nd act action from 3rd act action? Most movies tend to do that by throwing henchmen at the hero in Act 2, so he can beat them up and make progress, how do you do that with a single Rogue? Do you give them a lot of henchmen? Doesn't that go in a less interesting direction than multiple different villains?

As I've said before, X-Men is a fine example of how to manage a bunch of villains. One or two of the villains get built up, in that case Magneto and Mystique, the rest are more glorified henchmen. Build up Cold and Mirror Master, use the other 2 or 3 Rogues as supporting henchmen, eliminate all the competing heroes as supporting characters, and there's plenty of time within that to flesh out Flash and Iris. Yeah, they covered the origin as "mutants" but they also had a discovering your powers scene, establishing the world, politics, tour of the mansion, look at those costumes, etc. If you can handle a dozen or so characters in an X-Men movie, you can handle a little over half of that in another superhero movie.

Especially when the motive for the villains is "Let's steal some loot."

Heck, I'll use Robocop as an example. Dick Jones and Clarence Boddicker were the main villains, but they made sure that Boddicker's crew was colorful and distinctive. There's zero reason that the last couple of Rogues need to be any more distinct than Boddicker's crew. And you don't even have to worry about the OCP corporate politics thing since these guys are already on the same page from the beginning.

Or, for that matter, how many villains were there in Dick Tracy while the focus was still squarely on the hero? Sure, most were no more than cameos, but isn't that the point?

 

[The Overlord]

I agree with you overlord, five characters is a lot. It should be interesting to see what route they go with. If were talking a potential trilogy the only villain I can see having his own film is zoom, the question is, do you put him in an origin film or do you save him for a sequel.

Geoff Johns certainly has a tough task ahead of him, convincing the studio that captain cold isnt a mr. freeze rip off, explaining mirror masters gear and thats just the tip of the iceberg. Flash is going to be a unique one to crack.

Save Zoom for a sequel, he is far too big a threat for Flash to deal with right away.

Considering no really cares about Mr. freeze anymore, I don't think Cold will be a problem.

Big Bad = Last Rogue Standing.

And, I've laid out a number of reasons why I think Mirror Master is a natural for that.

The Big bad should be more then the last rogue standing it should be the villain who moves the plot forward.

If you are going to make MM the Big Bad, you shouldn't have the other villains make fun of his costume, unless he is going to punish them right away to maintain his menace.

And if you really think 5 supporting characters is a lot of develop in a 2 hour movie with action scenes, I think you need to watch a heck of a lot more movies. Any "men on a mission" movie, for instance. The Rogues are a group of "men on a mission". The mission: Take down the Flash. You must think The Dirty Dozen was some amazing feat of logistics. Or any heist caper. Or the majority of Quentin Tarantino movies which feature some scene of people talking around a table which develops the characters involved.

Those are heist movies though, those characters are the protongists, of course they are going get most of the sscreen time, that isn't the case with the Flash, it isn't a heist movie, Flash is going to get more screen then the Rogues, so they are not comparable to the guys in heist movies.

I think you have to throw numbers at the Flash in any scenario involving any of the Rogues since it's nearly impossible for there to be a believable fist fight with any of them. Or to avoid being repetitive. How do you separate 2nd act action from 3rd act action? Most movies tend to do that by throwing henchmen at the hero in Act 2, so he can beat them up and make progress, how do you do that with a single Rogue? Do you give them a lot of henchmen? Doesn't that go in a less interesting direction than multiple different villains?

The spider-Man movies didn't have henchmen and they did fine, building the action up for Act to act.

If you have an more manageable number of Rogues, like say 3.

Flash's origins, Flash fights some regular crime, Flash foils one of the rogues while committing a robbery and Mirror Master saves said Rogue, Captain Cold decides they have to eliminate the Flash, so they step up a trap that pulls all the stops and uses every advantage they to make the fight tough for Flash. Flash wins, end of movie.

Flash being less powerful then in the comics and being a rookie can explain why he is having so much trouble with them.

As I've said before, X-Men is a fine example of how to manage a bunch of villains. One or two of the villains get built up, in that case Magneto and Mystique, the rest are more glorified henchmen. Build up Cold and Mirror Master, use the other 2 or 3 Rogues as supporting henchmen, eliminate all the competing heroes as supporting characters, and there's plenty of time within that to flesh out Flash and Iris. Yeah, they covered the origin as "mutants" but they also had a discovering your powers scene, establishing the world, politics, tour of the mansion, look at those costumes, etc. If you can handle a dozen or so characters in an X-Men movie, you can handle a little over half of that in another superhero movie.

Magneto who was clearly the Big Bad, received any character focus in that movie, Mystique had one line, Toad had one line and Sabertooth had two lines.

So unless Cold and MM are only rogues who get more one line, that comparison doesn't work.

Especially when the motive for the villains is "Let's steal some loot."

Except their motive by the end of the film would be kill Flash, not just steal stuff.

Heck, I'll use Robocop as an example. Dick Jones and Clarence Boddicker were the main villains, but they made sure that Boddicker's crew was colorful and distinctive. There's zero reason that the last couple of Rogues need to be any more distinct than Boddicker's crew. And you don't even have to worry about the OCP corporate politics thing since these guys are already on the same page from the beginning.

But again there wasn't whole scenes where Boddicker and his gang just sat around a table and talked to each other. They had small little exchanges while doing something else, like showing off some weapons. Not mention common thugs are less expensive for a budget then super villains.

Or, for that matter, how many villains were there in Dick Tracy while the focus was still squarely on the hero? Sure, most were no more than cameos, but isn't that the point?

The same deal with X-Men, only Big boy had any real focus in that gang.

 

[protocida]

The big bad is usually Captain Cold.

 

[Kevin Smith]

I agree with you overlord, five characters is a lot. It should be interesting to see what route they go with. If were talking a potential trilogy the only villain I can see having his own film is zoom, the question is, do you put him in an origin film or do you save him for a sequel.

Geoff Johns certainly has a tough task ahead of him, convincing the studio that captain cold isnt a mr. freeze rip off, explaining mirror masters gear and thats just the tip of the iceberg. Flash is going to be a unique one to crack.

If anyone can do it though I'm betting he can.

And again, I say do Mirror Master as the villain in the first film.

And like I said, t hey could set him up as a crook who commited crimes with mirrors BEFORE he was MM, it could relate to Barry in the CSI: