The Official Re-Imagining Clark Kent Thread

[not_a_victim]

If not a Coward, then a weakling.

After dealing with beings on his level or tougher like Mongol, Darkseid, and the such he should have more than decent enough ability to fight, even if no formal training.
Then there are the regulars who show up even earlier, Parasite, Metallo, etc… Who essentially equalize the playing field by taking Supermans powers or a portion of them, or weakening him with Kryptonite.

At least those kinds of encounters he should have had before losing his powers and getting beat by an old man half his size.

After the kind of fights Superman has been in, or even knowing the pain of Kryptonite, then a man of his size and build should still be in the upper 1% of human fighters.

Sure you could find trained fighters who could beat him if he was powerless, but they should not be 5’10" and older than dinosaur nuts.

Even if he was to lose against a good human fighter, he should still put up a decent fight.

Are we even having the same discussion?
Do you know anything about storytelling? Supes never encountered Mongol, Darksied, Parasite or Metallo in the Donner movies, so it makes no sense to say what I bolded at the top of your post.
For the first time, (in the Donner movie universe) Clark was feeling his full weight, feeling hunger, exhaustion, ect. It was almost sensory overload. The pain of the fight simply made it too much. It also showed Clark's immediate regret for what he had done. He realized how much of a mistake it was. And his reaction was the physical manifestation of what all that was bearing upon him.
If he was a coward and a weakling, why would he attempt (and evidently succeed) in getting all the way to the FOS in the condition he was in?
Quit bringing both real world issues (a man's size and physicality), and comic book issues (the characters you mentioned) into a discussion of the in-universe ideas presented in the Donner movies.

 

[Kurosawa]

It would be cool to see Batman ground Superman with a bit of reality in the reboot.

Explain that life isn't the clean cut, american values life style that Supes would like it to be. That it's infact a messed up, grey area world. Where good people can do bad things and vice versa.

And it'd be nice to see a bit of Superman rub off on Batman. To show Bats that there IS still good in this world, and that it just takes a different point of view to find it sometimes.

If there is a cross over I'd expect that scene to be there, although I've seen Supes take enough Bat-lectures over the years in the comics.

It's not that Clark was a coward. He was simply shocked at what pain and actual fear was. He hadn't had to deal with it before. If anything, it was Clark feeling real empathy for humans for the first time.

I know that's what they were going for, but I always felt they took it waaaayyyy to far.

 

[Daybreak_st]

If there is a cross over I'd expect that scene to be there, although I've seen Supes take enough Bat-lectures over the years in the comics.



I know that's what they were going for, but I always felt they took it waaaayyyy to far.

I totally agree with Kuro on this one. I enjoyed those films for there time, but some ideas i just don't like now. They portrayed a superman who is nothing more than his powers. That's the only thing that made him super. That isn't the least bit impressive to me. In that universe he doesn't even have to content with supervillains on a regular basis. He has an easy job. Then they take his powers away and he gets beat up by some nobody?! I know what they were going for but he ends up looking pitiful.

Now clark in smallville has lost his powers on multiple occassions (as cheesy as that may be) yet each time they show him overcome an obstacle that his powers would've made easy.

In season one the episode "Leach" showed another student get clark's powers and eventually turn violent. Clark took responsibility and went to stop the guy with full knowledge he could be killed. In another episode in Season 5 several meteor freaks hold his family captive and clark again has to defeat them without the use of his powers. Now to me that shows more about superman than him getting beat up the minute he loses his powers. It shows what makes him "super" isn't just his powers but his spirit, and the never give up attitude. That is much more true to the comics than what happened in Superman 2.

How were we suppose to feel sympathy for the guy, he was just human like the rest of us, nothing worse than that. We have to deal with bullies, etc, but somehow this superpowered guy gets beat up one time and the audience is suppose to feel sorry for him.

 

[SuperMike335!!]

Are we even having the same discussion?
Do you know anything about storytelling? Supes never encountered Mongol, Darksied, Parasite or Metallo in the Donner movies, so it makes no sense to say what I bolded at the top of your post.
For the first time, (in the Donner movie universe) Clark was feeling his full weight, feeling hunger, exhaustion, ect. It was almost sensory overload. The pain of the fight simply made it too much. It also showed Clark's immediate regret for what he had done. He realized how much of a mistake it was. And his reaction was the physical manifestation of what all that was bearing upon him.
If he was a coward and a weakling, why would he attempt (and evidently succeed) in getting all the way to the FOS in the condition he was in?
Quit bringing both real world issues (a man's size and physicality), and comic book issues (the characters you mentioned) into a discussion of the in-universe ideas presented in the Donner movies.

I also mentioned "or the pain of Kryptonite", which he HAD experienced.

My point is the scene made it look like he was not able to even defend himself from a regular human in a fight without powers.

They just as easily could have gotten someone who was bigger than Reeve and actually had him put up somehwat of a fight.

Isn't it fair for a fan to not want to see him getting beaten up by what looks like a regular guy?

I do not care to see him get beat up by a normal human, just because he has no powers, even if it is for the art of storytelling. At least making someone imposing if he has to get beat up.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Its Mongul guys. With a "u". And he's a very nice guy. He even got Superman a present for his birthday.

Spoiler

This is Mongul's characteristic phrase, and he said it in Moore's "For the man who has everything". ****ing read it or at the very least watch the JL episode with the same name.

 

[Mr. Earle]

RE: Superman losing his powers and dealing with his mortality.

For the 10000th time i will suggest Superman/Batman Annual #2. Clark loses his powers and feels incompetent without them. So batman trains him. But even so he develops a fear of mortality. Yes, he was mortal even with his powers but it was a 1000 times harder for him to get injured or dead. You cant tell me that you wouldnt feel weak after losing godlike powers you've had since childhood.
Anyway, at the end of the issue he finally overcomes his fear to save Batman.

Review:
http://comics.ign.com/articles/860/860869p1.html

 

[RetroNaz]

Hmm I'm not sure if they should jump into Superman losing his powers in the "first" film. I'd hold off on that one until he's an established super hero.

 

[Nightwing1983]

Hmm I'm not sure if they should jump into Superman losing his powers in the "first" film. I'd hold off on that one until he's an established super hero.

Agreed. Besides, it's such an easy device to run to.

 

[not_a_victim]

I also mentioned "or the pain of Kryptonite", which he HAD experienced.

My point is the scene made it look like he was not able to even defend himself from a regular human in a fight without powers.

They just as easily could have gotten someone who was bigger than Reeve and actually had him put up somehwat of a fight.

Isn't it fair for a fan to not want to see him getting beaten up by what looks like a regular guy?

I do not care to see him get beat up by a normal human, just because he has no powers, even if it is for the art of storytelling. At least making someone imposing if he has to get beat up.

You absolutely must go back and watch the scene again. The man who beat him up wasn't that large, but he was very gregarious, loud, and obnoxious. He had Clark bested even before he hit him. It was the physical...Clark dealing with things he had never felt before, AND the psychological...CLark knowing that there was a posibility he wouldn't be able to defend himself or Lois.
Don't you remember Lois' interview with Supes in the first movie? Supes didn't even have to eat, if I remember his answers to the interview right...
The fact that the man is SMALLER than Clark only makes it more psychologically damaging to Clark when he gets beat up.
There is a thing called subtext. Sometimes there is more to a scene than what you actually SEE or HEAR.

 

[RetroNaz]

I'm really hoping the new movies invest us in Clark just as much as they do Superman.

I WANT to want to see Clark. I WANT to like him. (I don't want to just wish he'd hurry and turn into Superman).

And I really hope they push the angle of him wanting Lois to love Clark, and not Superman. Kind of like how the Spiderman films managed it with Peter and MJ.

Superman should be Clark's envision of what a symbol of truth and justice, and good represents. Not who he really is.

Similar to what Batman is for Bruce Wayne. And with Nolan guiding this flick, who knows, that might be the direction they could take it in.

 

[SuperMike335!!]

You absolutely must go back and watch the scene again. The man who beat him up wasn't that large, but he was very gregarious, loud, and obnoxious. He had Clark bested even before he hit him. It was the physical...Clark dealing with things he had never felt before, AND the psychological...CLark knowing that there was a posibility he wouldn't be able to defend himself or Lois.
Don't you remember Lois' interview with Supes in the first movie? Supes didn't even have to eat, if I remember his answers to the interview right...
The fact that the man is SMALLER than Clark only makes it more psychologically damaging to Clark when he gets beat up.
There is a thing called subtext. Sometimes there is more to a scene than what you actually SEE or HEAR.

Those are part of the reasons I think in the story it is best he not get his powers until adolescence. So he understands the basics like going hungry, getting hurt, bruises, scrapes and such.

Sure the scene was intended to show the story and regret for giving up his powers. I am not the only person who took away from it the meaning that without his powers he is a wimp however, as you already noticed.

Donner may have done it for what he saw as a good reason, but the result is people still taking it to mean "without powers he is a wuss".

On screen I did not like the way looked, and it is of my opinion that it made him look wimpy without his powers.

You can disagree that’s cool, as it is just my opinion. Getting him beaten up is not what I would have gone for.

I would have rather they showed a scene where he did not have the physical strength to save someone.

Car accident or something like that and an object of some kind pins a man, and Clark is unable to move the object, thus the man dies.

I think that would have been a more powerful scene to show why he reconsidered. The inability to save a human life because he was not strong enough to lift an object that should have been easy for him.

Although I would not have had him give up his powers to be with Lois anyway. I would think of some reason why he could be intimate with her without killing her, but that is a whole other subject.

 

[Daybreak_st]

You absolutely must go back and watch the scene again. The man who beat him up wasn't that large, but he was very gregarious, loud, and obnoxious. He had Clark bested even before he hit him. It was the physical...Clark dealing with things he had never felt before, AND the psychological...CLark knowing that there was a posibility he wouldn't be able to defend himself or Lois.
Don't you remember Lois' interview with Supes in the first movie? Supes didn't even have to eat, if I remember his answers to the interview right...
The fact that the man is SMALLER than Clark only makes it more psychologically damaging to Clark when he gets beat up.
There is a thing called subtext. Sometimes there is more to a scene than what you actually SEE or HEAR.

I agree with Supermike. I've seen the scene many times and still don't like it. Compare it to what happened in Spiderman 2. Pete no longer has his powers, he sees a man getting beat up and instead of helping he walks away. As an audience we're surprised but on some level understand as he's a pretty small guy and probably couldn't have done much but it was a good scene. Later when there's a fire, he simply can't stand by when he knows a little girl is still inside. We see him act heroiclly despite not having powers and risking his own life. See that to me makes a real hero. It was a solid scene. you understand why he wants his powers back but you also see that he is willing to step up if it means saving a life. He feels even worse tho when he hears that another person didn't make it out.

The primary difference is that while clark is only shown to experience some personal discomfort, getting beat up, Pete still acts heroic in risking his life to save a little girl. AFter clark gets beat up and sees the news footage of general zod, he then sees that he gave up his powers in haste and goes back to reclaim them. Personally i found Pete's journey much more fulfilling/interesting.

I also think that clark can and should be portrayed as heroic with or without powers. It's his heart that makes him superman. Also i like the idea that he got his powers gradually over time so that he'd know and understand his own physicallity. As i said at least with something like those episodes in smallville you see clark acting like a true hero and overcoming obstacles when depowered instead of just getting beat up or as in Superman Returns not even defending himself. I really hate that scene by the way. It's shown that he's initially willing to do something, he catches lex's foot when he tries to kick him but that's all. As soon as the goons jump in he doesn't do anything. Lex could've either let them beat him to death, shot him, or stabbed him and instead of letting him fall let him lay there on the ground and he would've died, simple as that without even putting up a fight. That is not superman to me.

And people actually wonder why most people think batman is a better character than supes. In one corner you have a regular guy who pushes himself to be more and regularly faces death in the face in his quest for justice. In the other corner you have a guy who has an enormous amount of powers, usually faces opponents he's naturally more powerful than, and when he loses his powers he can't even overcome some random guy in a bar?! Understand i love supes more than bats, but with those types of portrayal its no wonder some people prefer bats. I still prefer supes but when he's handled right.

 

[Kurosawa]

I agree with Supermike. I've seen the scene many times and still don't like it. Compare it to what happened in Spiderman 2. Pete no longer has his powers, he sees a man getting beat up and instead of helping he walks away. As an audience we're surprised but on some level understand as he's a pretty small guy and probably couldn't have done much but it was a good scene. Later when there's a fire, he simply can't stand by when he knows a little girl is still inside. We see him act heroiclly despite not having powers and risking his own life. See that to me makes a real hero. It was a solid scene. you understand why he wants his powers back but you also see that he is willing to step up if it means saving a life. He feels even worse tho when he hears that another person didn't make it out.

The primary difference is that while clark is only shown to experience some personal discomfort, getting beat up, Pete still acts heroic in risking his life to save a little girl. AFter clark gets beat up and sees the news footage of general zod, he then sees that he gave up his powers in haste and goes back to reclaim them. Personally i found Pete's journey much more fulfilling/interesting.

I also think that clark can and should be portrayed as heroic with or without powers. It's his heart that makes him superman. Also i like the idea that he got his powers gradually over time so that he'd know and understand his own physicallity. As i said at least with something like those episodes in smallville you see clark acting like a true hero and overcoming obstacles when depowered instead of just getting beat up or as in Superman Returns not even defending himself. I really hate that scene by the way. It's shown that he's initially willing to do something, he catches lex's foot when he tries to kick him but that's all. As soon as the goons jump in he doesn't do anything. Lex could've either let them beat him to death, shot him, or stabbed him and instead of letting him fall let him lay there on the ground and he would've died, simple as that without even putting up a fight. That is not superman to me.

And people actually wonder why most people think batman is a better character than supes. In one corner you have a regular guy who pushes himself to be more and regularly faces death in the face in his quest for justice. In the other corner you have a guy who has an enormous amount of powers, usually faces opponents he's naturally more powerful than, and when he loses his powers he can't even overcome some random guy in a bar?! Understand i love supes more than bats, but with those types of portrayal its no wonder some people prefer bats. I still prefer supes but when he's handled right.

Exactly, even originally they developed somewhat slowly.,..that was not a 100% Byrne thing.

 

[RetroNaz]

Good discussions guys, this is why I love coming onto these boards

 

[Webhead2006]

a toyman like that supermike would be an interesting foe to see on screen.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I agree with Supermike. I've seen the scene many times and still don't like it. Compare it to what happened in Spiderman 2. Pete no longer has his powers, he sees a man getting beat up and instead of helping he walks away. As an audience we're surprised but on some level understand as he's a pretty small guy and probably couldn't have done much but it was a good scene. Later when there's a fire, he simply can't stand by when he knows a little girl is still inside. We see him act heroiclly despite not having powers and risking his own life. See that to me makes a real hero. It was a solid scene. you understand why he wants his powers back but you also see that he is willing to step up if it means saving a life. He feels even worse tho when he hears that another person didn't make it out.

The primary difference is that while clark is only shown to experience some personal discomfort, getting beat up, Pete still acts heroic in risking his life to save a little girl. AFter clark gets beat up and sees the news footage of general zod, he then sees that he gave up his powers in haste and goes back to reclaim them. Personally i found Pete's journey much more fulfilling/interesting.

I also think that clark can and should be portrayed as heroic with or without powers. It's his heart that makes him superman. Also i like the idea that he got his powers gradually over time so that he'd know and understand his own physicallity. As i said at least with something like those episodes in smallville you see clark acting like a true hero and overcoming obstacles when depowered instead of just getting beat up or as in Superman Returns not even defending himself. I really hate that scene by the way. It's shown that he's initially willing to do something, he catches lex's foot when he tries to kick him but that's all. As soon as the goons jump in he doesn't do anything. Lex could've either let them beat him to death, shot him, or stabbed him and instead of letting him fall let him lay there on the ground and he would've died, simple as that without even putting up a fight. That is not superman to me.

And people actually wonder why most people think batman is a better character than supes. In one corner you have a regular guy who pushes himself to be more and regularly faces death in the face in his quest for justice. In the other corner you have a guy who has an enormous amount of powers, usually faces opponents he's naturally more powerful than, and when he loses his powers he can't even overcome some random guy in a bar?! Understand i love supes more than bats, but with those types of portrayal its no wonder some people prefer bats. I still prefer supes but when he's handled right.

I agree with what you re saying but Clark didnt get to live long without his powers to realise that he's a hero without them and they dont define him.

Also, Clark has had them since childhood, while Peter had them for what, a year? It was a lot bigger for Clark when he lost them.

But yeah, i agree with everything you re saying. In the comics he actually regained his heroism after losing his powers. 2 occasions that i know of:

1) Superman|Batman story that Bruce takes his powers and Clark is left without them. He is trying not to risk his life now that he isnt invulnerable, but he cant take it and tries to stop a mugging and gets shot.
2) S|B annual #2. Loses powers, develops fear of dying, overcomes it and becomes a hero even without powers, regains powers.

 

[true316]

This is changing the subject a bit but I thought this was hilariously ironic considering the questions in this thread surrounding the worth of what Siegel and Shuster brought to the table. This video was put up today on CNN's website.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/living/2010/02/23/elam.superman.comic.cnn?hpt=C2

Kurosawa, I thought you might get a kick out of that.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Its the first comic book that Superman appeared in and only a 100 of them exist. It would be worth a million dollars no matter what.

 

[SuperMike335!!]

Isn't that the comic book equivalent of the Holy Grail?

 

[true316]

Lol, so... when I posted the link to that video I knew there was on of two ways people would respond.

1) They would realize it was just posted in fun and wasn't meant as a serious point. Given some of the serious back and forth in this thread they might even laugh a little. Or...

2) They would think it was meant as a serious point and respond something like...

Its the first comic book that Superman appeared in and only a 100 of them exist. It would be worth a million dollars no matter what.

Yeah, not everything's meant to be serious man. We talked about Siegel and Shuster in this thread. Something they wrote showed up in the news today. No biggie.

I'm still counting on other kid's moms throwing away their comic books so my copy of Bryne's Man of Steel #1 will be worth $1,000,000... 70 years from now.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I got that you posted it with tongue in cheek, but in case Kurosawa decided to make an arguement out of it... i decided to respond preemptively.

 

[true316]

I got that you posted it with tongue in cheek, but in case Kurosawa decided to make an arguement out of it... i decided to respond preemptively.

No harm done.

 

[not_a_victim]

I agree with Supermike. I've seen the scene many times and still don't like it. Compare it to what happened in Spiderman 2. Pete no longer has his powers, he sees a man getting beat up and instead of helping he walks away. As an audience we're surprised but on some level understand as he's a pretty small guy and probably couldn't have done much but it was a good scene. Later when there's a fire, he simply can't stand by when he knows a little girl is still inside. We see him act heroiclly despite not having powers and risking his own life. See that to me makes a real hero. It was a solid scene. you understand why he wants his powers back but you also see that he is willing to step up if it means saving a life. He feels even worse tho when he hears that another person didn't make it out.

The primary difference is that while clark is only shown to experience some personal discomfort, getting beat up, Pete still acts heroic in risking his life to save a little girl. AFter clark gets beat up and sees the news footage of general zod, he then sees that he gave up his powers in haste and goes back to reclaim them. Personally i found Pete's journey much more fulfilling/interesting.

I also think that clark can and should be portrayed as heroic with or without powers. It's his heart that makes him superman. Also i like the idea that he got his powers gradually over time so that he'd know and understand his own physicallity. As i said at least with something like those episodes in smallville you see clark acting like a true hero and overcoming obstacles when depowered instead of just getting beat up or as in Superman Returns not even defending himself. I really hate that scene by the way. It's shown that he's initially willing to do something, he catches lex's foot when he tries to kick him but that's all. As soon as the goons jump in he doesn't do anything. Lex could've either let them beat him to death, shot him, or stabbed him and instead of letting him fall let him lay there on the ground and he would've died, simple as that without even putting up a fight. That is not superman to me.

And people actually wonder why most people think batman is a better character than supes. In one corner you have a regular guy who pushes himself to be more and regularly faces death in the face in his quest for justice. In the other corner you have a guy who has an enormous amount of powers, usually faces opponents he's naturally more powerful than, and when he loses his powers he can't even overcome some random guy in a bar?! Understand i love supes more than bats, but with those types of portrayal its no wonder some people prefer bats. I still prefer supes but when he's handled right.

I disagree on three points...
1. Clark volunteered to give up his powers. Peter Parker simply lost his. Clark "doomed" himself to mortality.
-That is heroic. Basically volunteering to die (even if it is many years away) because you love someone is the quintessential definition of heroism.
2. Again, I state: Clark Kent traveled to basically the most inhospitable habitat on the face of the earth in street clothes and a Members Only jacket to reach the FOS. He could have easily died along the way, and never re-calimed his powers.
-That is heroic.
3. Clark went back to claim his powers, so he could face 3 foes, all of which where either as strong or stronger than him. The powers themselves would cancel out, leaving him in a 3-1 brawl against people who refused to fight clean.
-Again, heroic.

Additionally, Supes realized his decision effected teh whole world, as it was being taken over by Zod et al.


Also, in SR, with the beating scene, you assume that Clark could do anything. I'd like to see how well you fight 4 people as you are being poisoned. Keep that in mind, the K didn't just strip him of his powers, it was toxic to him. When you actually feel yourself dying, getting punched and kicked aren't that big of a priority...
Supes, while not mentally deficient by any means, has always gotten by on his physicality. His primary weapon was taken away from him, and he was simply having a hard time adjusting, coupled with the fact of the invasion of the other Kryptonians, plus knowing made a decsion he may not be able to rectify...you gotta excuse the man (formally a god) for losing it for a minute.

 

[Daybreak_st]

I disagree on three points...
1. Clark volunteered to give up his powers. Peter Parker simply lost his. Clark "doomed" himself to mortality.
-That is heroic. Basically volunteering to die (even if it is many years away) because you love someone is the quintessential definition of heroism.

He voluntarily gave up his powers for selfish reasons, nothing heroic about it, he didn't think about the consequences to the world then, only his desire to be with lois. That's not heroic. Spidey lost his powers b/c of self-doubt, no external stimuli. Once he was ready to fully embrace them then they came back.

I hate how everyone assumes being human is the worse thing in the world, "oh my goodness he decided to be human he's condemned himself to death" umm..aren't we all human? Sure he gave up a lot, but for a woman he barely knows, and with all the disasters he'd already have saved mankind from he should've been fully aware of the consequences of not having superman around, rather general zod showed up or not.

2. Again, I state: Clark Kent traveled to basically the most inhospitable habitat on the face of the earth in street clothes and a Members Only jacket to reach the FOS. He could have easily died along the way, and never re-calimed his powers.
-That is heroic.

You're right about this, it's a good point.

3. Clark went back to claim his powers, so he could face 3 foes, all of which where either as strong or stronger than him. The powers themselves would cancel out, leaving him in a 3-1 brawl against people who refused to fight clean.
-Again, heroic.

Yeah, i'm not arguing the whole plot of the movie, it was a nice climax to the film. But he's also invulnerable, which contrary to what most people think means even if he's fighting someone on his same level it's hard to get hurt. Notice how he never bleeds while as superman. I agree it was very heroic to step up and reclaim his powers to save the world.
[/QUOTE]

Additionally, Supes realized his decision effected teh whole world, as it was being taken over by Zod et al.

With all the good he'd already done for a planet with no other superhumans to take up the slack i fail to see how didn't think about the consequences of him giving up his powers sooner. No he didn't anticipate general zod's arrival but there would've been other disasters to stop, etc. Just saying i don't see why he wouldn't have figured it out sooner.

Also, in SR, with the beating scene, you assume that Clark could do anything.

Like how he caught lex's foot at the begining? Like how he doesn't even try to defend himself. My point is that could've killed him. Period. One gun shot. And he wouldn't even have tried to protect himself.

I'd like to see how well you fight 4 people as you are being poisoned. Keep that in mind, the K didn't just strip him of his powers, it was toxic to him. When you actually feel yourself dying, getting punched and kicked aren't that big of a priority...

Well i'm not exactly 6'4 weighing 225 pounds either. There was only one big/strong thug out of those four. One guy was the dude from Harell and Cumar, so excuse me if i'm surprised supes didn't do anything. If anything all the scene did if confirm what a lot of people already believe, Superman is nothing more than his powers. We say he's some great hero but for the most part he's only fighting situations or people he's naturally stronger than. Whooop-tee-dooo. The minute he looses his advantage he's nothing special. Contrast that with any other superhero, you've got spiderman who also has powers but half his rouges gallery is more powerful than him, yet he still comes off on top, often time using his brain rather than just his brawn. As stated earlier you've got batman , with no powers who's just a regular guy who chooses to put himself in harms way for the sake of justice. any number of other heroes falls into the same category, despite their gifts they constantly face challenges bigger than them and still come off victorius. In the final fight in Superman 2 i thought it was great and he fit into this category. My argument was never against the whole movie but the one scene.

Supes, while not mentally deficient by any means, has always gotten by on his physicality. His primary weapon was taken away from him, and he was simply having a hard time adjusting, coupled with the fact of the invasion of the other Kryptonians, plus knowing made a decsion he may not be able to rectify...you gotta excuse the man (formally a god) for losing it for a minute.

I can see your point, but it wasn't until after his beating that he learned of the invasion. Also it was more of a personal thing as at the end of the film when he had his powers back he came back just to embarres the guy, knowing he was waaaaaaaaaaaaay more powerful than the guy he still challenges him to a fight. Now i liked seeing the guy get what he deserved at the same time you have to question superman taking revenge of a puny human just to make a point. I liked the scene but it does make you question him a bit, but then again i guess that's just his human side coming out.

 

[not_a_victim]

He voluntarily gave up his powers for selfish reasons, nothing heroic about it, he didn't think about the consequences to the world then, only his desire to be with lois. That's not heroic. Spidey lost his powers b/c of self-doubt, no external stimuli. Once he was ready to fully embrace them then they came back.

I hate how everyone assumes being human is the worse thing in the world, "oh my goodness he decided to be human he's condemned himself to death" umm..aren't we all human? Sure he gave up a lot, but for a woman he barely knows, and with all the disasters he'd already have saved mankind from he should've been fully aware of the consequences of not having superman around, rather general zod showed up or not.



You're right about this, it's a good point.



Yeah, i'm not arguing the whole plot of the movie, it was a nice climax to the film. But he's also invulnerable, which contrary to what most people think means even if he's fighting someone on his same level it's hard to get hurt. Notice how he never bleeds while as superman. I agree it was very heroic to step up and reclaim his powers to save the world.

With all the good he'd already done for a planet with no other superhumans to take up the slack i fail to see how didn't think about the consequences of him giving up his powers sooner. No he didn't anticipate general zod's arrival but there would've been other disasters to stop, etc. Just saying i don't see why he wouldn't have figured it out sooner.



Like how he caught lex's foot at the begining? Like how he doesn't even try to defend himself. My point is that could've killed him. Period. One gun shot. And he wouldn't even have tried to protect himself.


Well i'm not exactly 6'4 weighing 225 pounds either. There was only one big/strong thug out of those four. One guy was the dude from Harell and Cumar, so excuse me if i'm surprised supes didn't do anything. If anything all the scene did if confirm what a lot of people already believe, Superman is nothing more than his powers. We say he's some great hero but for the most part he's only fighting situations or people he's naturally stronger than. Whooop-tee-dooo. The minute he looses his advantage he's nothing special. Contrast that with any other superhero, you've got spiderman who also has powers but half his rouges gallery is more powerful than him, yet he still comes off on top, often time using his brain rather than just his brawn. As stated earlier you've got batman , with no powers who's just a regular guy who chooses to put himself in harms way for the sake of justice. any number of other heroes falls into the same category, despite their gifts they constantly face challenges bigger than them and still come off victorius. In the final fight in Superman 2 i thought it was great and he fit into this category. My argument was never against the whole movie but the one scene.



I can see your point, but it wasn't until after his beating that he learned of the invasion. Also it was more of a personal thing as at the end of the film when he had his powers back he came back just to embarres the guy, knowing he was waaaaaaaaaaaaay more powerful than the guy he still challenges him to a fight. Now i liked seeing the guy get what he deserved at the same time you have to question superman taking revenge of a puny human just to make a point. I liked the scene but it does make you question him a bit, but then again i guess that's just his human side coming out.[/QUOTE]
_________________________________________________________________________________

DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE QUOTE BOX, BUT MY COMMENTS START BELOW THIS LINE.
_________________________________________________________________________________

Good points all around.
However, Lex didn't want to just kill Supes, he wanted to pay him back for everything Supes had already did to him. Remember, SR was a continuation of Superman II, disregarding III and IV. Complicated.

I also agree about that last scene in the movie. I don't see Supes as being some vengeful person. I can see him putting the bully in his place and teaching him lesson, but I never figured out why Supes would inflict as much pain as he did (by allowing the man to punch him) when he himself had just experienced his first bout of pain as a normal human. It was a little too much camp for me, and reflected Richard Lester's influence on the movie instead of Donner's
More than anything, the inconsistencies in the movie come from Donner getting canned, and Lester taking over.