The Dark Knight The Prestige, and Nolan's vision of theatricality (Joker)

[Silver Souper]

Well I'll start this off by saying I loved the first half of The Prestige, and then I watched as the second half slowed to a near stop, bogged down by plot holes and leaps in logic and coinsidence. But it was the ending that really pissed me off. I haven't felt cheated in theaters like that since The Village. I realize it was based on the source material but...LAME!

I think the movie gave us some clues into Nolan's vision of theatricality and pomp (Jackman's showmanship). I almost wonder if Nolan considered this his "revving up" to portray the Joker, who will show similar characteristics in TDK.

I have to say, The Prestige seemed increasingly clunky and detached in the way Nolan portrayed fantastical and theatrical elements. I am not fearing for the life of the Batman franchise like some paranoid fans, but I thought it was worth the discussion since Nolan's never really tackled a character like the Joker before, and The Prestige's magicians are probably the closest he's come to him yet.

Although the Joker is menacing, evil and frightening, he needs to have an undeniable watchability and appeal, not to mention a flamboyance, vanity and certain level of cheer. I hope Nolan won't lose those things in favor of showing his grisly side. Too much "dark" and the definable characteristics of Joker are lost. Based on The Prestige, I wonder if he's going to be able to deliver us the balance that is The Joker.

just an idea. Thoughts?

 

[raybia]

Well I'll start this off by saying I loved the first half of The Prestige, and then I watched as the second half slowed to a near stop, bogged down by plot holes and leaps in logic and coinsidence. But it was the ending that really pissed me off. I haven't felt cheated in theaters like that since The Village. I realize it was based on the source material but...LAME!

I think the movie gave us some clues into Nolan's vision of theatricality and pomp (Jackman's showmanship). I almost wonder if Nolan considered this his "revving up" to portray the Joker, who will show similar characteristics in TDK.

I have to say, The Prestige seemed increasingly clunky and detached in the way Nolan portrayed fantastical and theatrical elements. I am not fearing for the life of the Batman franchise like some paranoid fans, but I thought it was worth the discussion since Nolan's never really tackled a character like the Joker before, and The Prestige's magicians are probably the closest he's come to him yet.

Although the Joker is menacing, evil and frightening, he needs to have an undeniable watchability and appeal, not to mention a flamboyance, vanity and certain level of cheer. I hope Nolan won't lose those things in favor of showing his grisly side. Too much "dark" and the definable characteristics of Joker are lost. Based on The Prestige, I wonder if he's going to be able to deliver us the balance that is The Joker.

just an idea. Thoughts?

I don't know. The Joker can be a difficult character to realize on the Big screen with Nolan's grounded reality. There hasn't been a character portrayal in any of Nolan's previous films that gives direct evidence that he can pull it off, but he is certainly a solid director and I feel up to the task.

With that said, I think the writer will play a very big role in how the Joker turns out, so Jonathan is the X-factor I would say.

And of course, no matter how great the Nolan brothers are, they will still need a great actor who can bring the Joker to life. A lot of uncertainies.

I think Nolan's Joker will either by really good or really bad.

 

[GeoffTheArtist]

Well, I have yet to watch "The Prestige", and this is the first remotely bad feedback I've heard from it. I am a paranoid fan, mind you, but I believe in Christopher Nolan.

 

[gdw]

I have no clue what you are talking about with The Prestige. It is a phenomonal movie and had a GREAT ending.

And trust me, no plot holes. Everytime someone has claimed a plot hole they only missed something. Trust me. There are no huge plot holes.

 

[Silver Souper]

I have no clue what you are talking about with The Prestige. It is a phenomonal movie and had a GREAT ending.

And trust me, no plot holes. Everytime someone has claimed a plot hole they only missed something. Trust me. There are no huge plot holes.

SPOILER: the idea that bales' character sent jackman's on a wild goose chase that accidentally (for bale) ended in the creation by tesla of the very thing that bale was mimicking on stage, is COMPLETELY ABSURD. beyond the obvious impossibility of that mechanism, too...

ENDING: you cannot establish a world that uses reason and logic and then suddenly violates the logic and reason of that world to get yourself out of a creative bind. you can do your own googling if you'd like to research the dynamics of story from the pros.

 

[raybia]

I think the Nolan is going to pull it off and compared to the lame villians in the two Spider-Man movies, I think the Joker will rank as a modern date Hannibal Lecter.

 

[CConn]

I think the Nolan is going to pull it off and compared to the lame villians in the two Spider-Man movies, I think the Joker will rank as a modern date Hannibal Lecter.

And I think Hillary Clinton played bass for The Who.

 

[Silver Souper]

I think the Nolan is going to pull it off and compared to the lame villians in the two Spider-Man movies, I think the Joker will rank as a modern date Hannibal Lecter.

i hope you're right. i agree that spidey's villains have been too tame and there was too much effort to make them sympathetic.

I don't know. The Joker can be a difficult character to realize on the Big screen with Nolan's grounded reality. There hasn't been a character portrayal in any of Nolan's previous films that gives direct evidence that he can pull it off, but he is certainly a solid director and I feel up to the task.

With that said, I think the writer will play a very big role in how the Joker turns out, so Jonathan is the X-factor I would say.

And of course, no matter how great the Nolan brothers are, they will still need a great actor who can bring the Joker to life. A lot of uncertainies.

I think Nolan's Joker will either by really good or really bad.

TOTALLY agree with you. i think we're going to see a distinct joker, and that will either be right on, or way off. i trust nolan in general, but i fear that the flamboyance of the joker will be nolan's weak spot.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

I think the Nolan is going to pull it off and compared to the lame villians in the two Spider-Man movies, I think the Joker will rank as a modern date Hannibal Lecter.

With all due respect, (IMO) the films Spider-Man 1 & 2 are really the only redeeming qualities about Marvel in the cinema. And that's it for me. Otherwise, I'm DC through and through (although Stan Lee is an amazing person, and I love to learn about him).

Lately I just have a real strong feeling that Ledger is going to bomb this role. That's my opinion due to intuition, and I can back it up by using certain reasons already posted in this thread. Will Ledger exceed the Green Goblin as a comic villain? Highly doubt it.

 

[Silver Souper]

Lately I just have a real strong feeling that Ledger is going to bomb this role.

why do you think? I'm curious to hear it...i'm worried that we might get a more mopey/weepy joker with a low, gravely voice. Like a sad clown. I hope not.

 

[raybia]

With all due respect, (IMO) the films Spider-Man 1 & 2 are really the only redeeming qualities about Marvel in the cinema. And that's it for me. Otherwise, I'm DC through and through (although Stan Lee is an amazing person, and I love to learn about him).

Lately I just have a real strong feeling that Ledger is going to bomb this role. That's my opinion due to intuition, and I can back it up by using certain reasons already posted in this thread. Will Ledger exceed the Green Goblin as a villain? Highly doubt it.

I think the Spider-Man films are pretty true to the spirit of the source material and are solid movies. I just feel the villians were weak antagonist.

As optimistic as I am about Nolan's ability to create a Joker that will be a perfect archvillian for Batman, I have to admit I have my doubts about Ledger's ability to pull it off. I would never had thought of casting him in this role in a million years.

On the flip side, I thought William Defoe was perfect casting as the Green Goblin that the director wasn't able to capitalize on.

 

[Miranda Fox]

Lately I just have a real strong feeling that Ledger is going to bomb this role. That's my opinion due to intuition, and I can back it up by using certain reasons already posted in this thread. Will Ledger exceed the Green Goblin as a villain? Highly doubt it.

*affects sarcastic voice* but great to see you're keeping an open mind about it anyway!

 

[titan101]

"It's definitely going to stump people. I think it'll be more along the lines of how the Joker was meant to be in the comics, darker and more sinister."


It's going to be more nuanced and dark and more along the lines of a Clockwork Orange kind of feel. Which is, I think, what the comic book was after: less about his laugh and more about his eyes.

"This guy is a shark, a fearless shark and I know I can bring that alive..."

and you say that heath DOESN'T know what he's doing...

 

[raybia]

"It's definitely going to stump people. I think it'll be more along the lines of how the Joker was meant to be in the comics, darker and more sinister."


It's going to be more nuanced and dark and more along the lines of a Clockwork Orange kind of feel. Which is, I think, what the comic book was after: less about his laugh and more about his eyes.

"This guy is a shark, a fearless shark and I know I can bring that alive..."

and you say that heath DOESN'T know what he's doing...

He has said all the right things and I love the approach. The question is: Can he execute it? Well all I can say is this: I am eagerly looking forward to finding out!

 

[Superwoman Prime]

why do you think? I'm curious to hear it...i'm worried that we might get a more mopey/weepy joker with a low, gravely voice. Like a sad clown. I hope not.

All right. We have to take what was in Batman Begins (and the Prestige, which is a more recent element), and put some two's together.

* Do you realize how many fans were bothered by just the way Batman spoke in BB? Even die-hard Begins fans know the voice needs refining. That alone (that Nolan somehow let the inflection pass his judgment), spells worry for the role of Joker (regardless of who plays the role, actually). A huge part of film Joker is in the voice. While we obviously can't hear him in the comics: just the way he is drawn, the types of words he uses, gives the explicit impression that Joker has a distinct voice. Try it. Read a Batman comic. Tell me that you don't automatically get this creepy, maniacal voice in your mind when reading Joker's words.

If Bale himself wasn't made to speak in a more refined Batman voice, how do we expect Ledger to not just totally turn fans off by having some a tone that doesn't remotely fit the character of Joker, or anything he stands for? (Sorry for the loaded sentence.)


* "It's definitely going to stump people. I think it'll be more along the lines of how the Joker was meant to be in the comics, darker and more sinister." - Heath Ledger

Before anyone says I am reading too much into a small quote, consider that Heath Ledger, by the time he said this, already knew how he'd be set to portray the Joker. There were already talks with Nolan. This was not said on a whim.

Do any fans around here actually pay mind to what that means? What is Ledger trying to say with this?

It's definitely going to stump people. - Oh really. This conjures up various images, that ironically give Ledger the benefit of the doubt... the Joker standing over a victim with a crowbar and laughing hysterically, while at the same time beating the precious life out of the victim. Then again: that is more "disturbing people" rather than "stumping people." Dedicated fans are mostly already familiar with the Joker's character, and how the role needs to play out. What exactly is going to 'stump' us? I don't know. This part of the quote is fairly ambiguous.

I think it'll be more along the lines of how the Joker was meant to be in the comics, darker and more sinister. - By no stretch of the imagination can we consider this part ambiguous. Ledger comes out and says that he will portray a comic book Joker. Unless Nolan is going to allow such blatant over-the-top acting to occur, then we cannot possibly get a comic Joker. Do any reailze this? What we will get, without a doubt, is a Nolanverse Joker. While Batman only somewhat fits into the dry realism, the Joker, as a character thus far in the comics, cannot be honorably done with Nolanverse laws.

Let's take this quote by Nolan, and you can think for yourself:

In addition, Nolan considered the Penguin difficult to portray on film, explaining, "There are certain characters that are easier to mesh with the more real take on Batman we're doing."

What's so extremely difficult about a plump man with a long nose and a wealthy man's ego? If Penguin is hard to portray in the Nolanverse, then we are all in serious trouble when it comes to the Joker.

 

[Castlewood]

I don't think it's anything we are expecting. If he's going for the ORIGINAL comic approach, than that is considerably different than the Joker that we all know.

The Joker that I know, personally, is the one from The Animated Series.... and TRUST ME, Ledger will be the complete opposite of that.

If the original Joker from the comics was a serial killer who robbed banks, and if it's going to be "darker" and more "sinister", then I highly doubt that we're going to see The Joker laughing out loud in a voice that resembles Mark Hammill's. You might as well forget about making any comparisons to Mark Hammill's Joker. If you think we're getting TAS, B'89, or even Casear Romero, forget it.

I personally expect Ledger's Joker to be QUIET, and not laughing all the time. He's a very quiet actor, and you never see him "freaking out" on screen. I just don't see Ledger doing something "zany". I think the Joker will be serious and tragic, and maybe even too dark.

Hell, I'm putting my money on NO green hair and NO purple suit too.... You just watch. One year from now, when we finally see leaked pics, we're all gonna be up in arms with anger, guaranteed.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

*affects sarcastic voice* but great to see you're keeping an open mind about it anyway!

We need to all keep an open mind, sure. That doesn't mean sitting here and ignoring all the omens.

 

[Castlewood]

And by the way... I think we all need to take a step back and seriously review Nolan's films. I don't think the Joker we're getting in 2008 is going to be The Joker that we want... honestly. It will be a GOOD Joker, no doubt... but it just won't be the Joker we had in mind.

 

[Silver Souper]

All right. We have to take what was in Batman Begins (and the Prestige, which is a more recent element), and put some two's together.

* Do you realize how many fans were bothered by just the way Batman spoke in BB? Even die-hard Begins fans know the voice needs refining. That alone (that Nolan somehow let the inflection pass his judgment), spells worry for the role of Joker (regardless of who plays the role, actually). A huge part of film Joker is in the voice. While we obviously can't hear him in the comics: just the way he is drawn, the types of words he uses, gives the explicit impression that Joker has a distinct voice. Try it. Read a Batman comic. Tell me that you don't automatically get this creepy, maniacal voice in your mind when reading Joker's words.

If Bale himself wasn't made to speak in a more refined Batman voice, how do we expect Ledger to not just totally turn fans off by having some a tone that doesn't remotely fit the character of Joker, or anything he stands for? (Sorry for the loaded sentence.)


* "It's definitely going to stump people. I think it'll be more along the lines of how the Joker was meant to be in the comics, darker and more sinister." - Heath Ledger

Before anyone says I am reading too much into a small quote, consider that Heath Ledger, by the time he said this, already knew how he'd be set to portray the Joker. There were already talks with Nolan. This was not said on a whim.

Do any fans around here actually pay mind to what that means? What is Ledger trying to say with this?

It's definitely going to stump people. - Oh really. This conjures up various images, that ironically give Ledger the benefit of the doubt... the Joker standing over a victim with a crowbar and laughing hysterically, while at the same time beating the precious life out of the victim. Then again: that is more "disturbing people" rather than "stumping people." Dedicated fans are mostly already familiar with the Joker's character, and how the role needs to play out. What exactly is going to 'stump' us? I don't know. This part of the quote is fairly ambiguous.

I think it'll be more along the lines of how the Joker was meant to be in the comics, darker and more sinister. - By no stretch of the imagination can we consider this part ambiguous. Ledger comes out and says that he will portray a comic book Joker. Unless Nolan is going to allow such blatant over-the-top acting to occur, then we cannot possibly get a comic Joker. Do any reailze this? What we will get, without a doubt, is a Nolanverse Joker. While Batman only somewhat fits into the dry realism, the Joker, as a character thus far in the comics, cannot be honorably done with Nolanverse laws.

Let's take this quote by Nolan, and you can think for yourself:



What's so extremely difficult about a plump man with a long nose and a wealthy man's ego? If Penguin is hard to portray in the Nolanverse, then we are all in serious trouble when it comes to the Joker.

interesting. yeah, I guess I'd say that I'm concerned, but not worried. What ledger could mean by "stumped" is that few of us are familiar with the Joker's portrayal in the early comics (first few), and Nolan says he's going that way. wikipedia says that was a far more straightforward serial killer, and less theatrical.

all part of my concern- that they're drawing from a period before Joker found his true identity and footing as a character. mix this with the way Nolan shows style and theatricality in The Prestige, which I found to be fairly lifeless, and we might have an awkward Joker.

 

[Silver Souper]

I don't think it's anything we are expecting. If he's going for the ORIGINAL comic approach, than that is considerably different than the Joker that we all know.

The Joker that I know, personally, is the one from The Animated Series.... and TRUST ME, Ledger will be the complete opposite of that.

If the original Joker from the comics was a serial killer who robbed banks, and if it's going to be "darker" and more "sinister", then I highly doubt that we're going to see The Joker laughing out loud in a voice that resembles Mark Hammill's. You might as well forget about making any comparisons to Mark Hammill's Joker. If you think we're getting TAS, B'89, or even Casear Romero, forget it.

I personally expect Ledger's Joker to be QUIET, and not laughing all the time. He's a very quiet actor, and you never see him "freaking out" on screen. I just don't see Ledger doing something "zany". I think the Joker will be serious and tragic, and maybe even too dark.

Hell, I'm putting my money on NO green hair and NO purple suit too.... You just watch. One year from now, when we finally see leaked pics, we're all gonna be up in arms with anger, guaranteed.

yeah...eh. i hope you're wrong but something tells me you aren't.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

I don't think it's anything we are expecting. If he's going for the ORIGINAL comic approach, than that is considerably different than the Joker that we all know.

The Joker that I know, personally, is the one from The Animated Series.... and TRUST ME, Ledger will be the complete opposite of that.

If the original Joker from the comics was a serial killer who robbed banks, and if it's going to be "darker" and more "sinister", then I highly doubt that we're going to see The Joker laughing out loud in a voice that resembles Mark Hammill's. You might as well forget about making any comparisons to Mark Hammill's Joker. If you think we're getting TAS, B'89, or even Casear Romero, forget it.

I personally expect Ledger's Joker to be QUIET, and not laughing all the time. He's a very quiet actor, and you never see him "freaking out" on screen. I just don't see Ledger doing something "zany". I think the Joker will be serious and tragic, and maybe even too dark.

Hell, I'm putting my money on NO green hair and NO purple suit too.... You just watch. One year from now, when we finally see leaked pics, we're all gonna be up in arms with anger, guaranteed.

By no means does Ledger's voice need to resemble Hamill's. But his voice does need to do justice to the character itself. Somehow.

 

[Silver Souper]

double post

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Hell, I'm putting my money on NO green hair and NO purple suit too.... You just watch. One year from now, when we finally see leaked pics, we're all gonna be up in arms with anger, guaranteed.

I agree. I have a feeling that the look of the Joker will create mass pandemonium similar to that of the reaction to the costume from Superman Returns. The analysis on this board of the Joker's look will be mind boggling(not green enough, the purple is too light, the smile is off by 2 degrees etc...). It could get very ugly in here.

 

[Silver Souper]

I agree. I have a feeling that the look of the Joker will create mass pandemonium similar to that of the reaction to the costume from Superman Returns. The analysis on this board of the Joker's look will be mind boggling(not green enough, the purple is too light, the smile is off by 2 degrees etc...). It could get very ugly in here.

it's gonna be an all out brawl. Purists vs. Nolan benefit-of-the-doubters.

 

[cryptic name]

Well I'll start this off by saying I loved the first half of The Prestige, and then I watched as the second half slowed to a near stop, bogged down by plot holes and leaps in logic and coinsidence. But it was the ending that really pissed me off. I haven't felt cheated in theaters like that since The Village. I realize it was based on the source material but...LAME!

I think the movie gave us some clues into Nolan's vision of theatricality and pomp (Jackman's showmanship). I almost wonder if Nolan considered this his "revving up" to portray the Joker, who will show similar characteristics in TDK.

I have to say, The Prestige seemed increasingly clunky and detached in the way Nolan portrayed fantastical and theatrical elements. I am not fearing for the life of the Batman franchise like some paranoid fans, but I thought it was worth the discussion since Nolan's never really tackled a character like the Joker before, and The Prestige's magicians are probably the closest he's come to him yet.

Although the Joker is menacing, evil and frightening, he needs to have an undeniable watchability and appeal, not to mention a flamboyance, vanity and certain level of cheer. I hope Nolan won't lose those things in favor of showing his grisly side. Too much "dark" and the definable characteristics of Joker are lost. Based on The Prestige, I wonder if he's going to be able to deliver us the balance that is The Joker.

just an idea. Thoughts?

hopefully Nolan's Joker will deliver, but i completely disagree with you on just about everything you said about The Prestige