The Dark Knight The Prestige, and Nolan's vision of theatricality (Joker)

[Superwoman Prime]

Go to a Will Ferrell movie if you're looking for laughs. The Joker isn't funny. He thinks he is, but he's not. I've never laughed at his jokes. Even Jack's Joker wasn't funny - sticking out the tongue and pretending to fly away from Vicky Vale's apartment is not comedic genius. I think we are freaking out WAAAAYYYYYY too much about this. Ledger is a very good actor who is getting better and better, and, while not my first choice, I believe he can pull it off. I have no doubts that the Nolans can nail the character in a way that keeps us all happy.

That's not what was meant. I meant laughs coming from the Joker.

You're right: the Joker thinks he's funny. Therefore Ledger had better laugh his ass off at certain times. He needs to be laughing at some of his own jokes, due to the fact no one else thinks they're funny.

 

[itsthebatman]

That's not what was meant. I meant laughs coming from the Joker.

You're right: the Joker thinks he's funny. Therefore Ledger had better laugh his ass off at certain times. He needs to be laughing at some of his own jokes, due to the fact no one else thinks they're funny.

Grand. I agree with this. the way you originally framed it, I thought you were looking for genuine funny stuff from him.
In BB, Ra's was a megalomaniac with a twisted vision of how to make the world pure. Scarecrow was a masked villain, a psychiatrist with fear gas. these characteristics were central to the character, and Nolan knew this. I think he'll get the Joker.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

In BB, Ra's was a megalomaniac with a twisted vision of how to make the world pure. Scarecrow was a masked villain, a psychiatrist with fear gas. these characteristics were central to the character, and Nolan knew this. I think he'll get the Joker.

Exactly. People give this movie a lot of grief, but if you just look close, you'll see just how well Nolan, Goyer & Co understood these characters. Even a character like Crane, who would seem a pretty hollow villain otherwise (without a "back story") has illuminating lines like these -

"Outside, he was a giant. In here, only the mind can grant you power."

"You enjoy the reversal?"

"I respect the mind's power over the body. It's why I do what I do."

Small moments like this prove the filmmakers' understanding of these characters. We didn't even need the whole backstory about how Crane was picked on in school, etc..to understand his motivations. That's great, underrated character work!

And that's why I have faith in their Joker.

 

[Steyin]

Actually, I thought the Prestige gave more of an insight into detective work/investigation and finding answers to questions that should be incorporated into TDK. I don't think the characters hint to anything otherwise.

And your lack of content for the ending of The Prestige makes me question if you actually understood the ending.

Afterall...

Spoiler

Jackman's character is still alive holding his breath in that water tank

 

[Miranda Fox]

I just saw that movie yesterday, but wasn't he the calm one in that scene (with the parents)? I only really saw him go "crazy" in the shower.

Which is what I was talking about...

 

[Phaser]

Exactly. People give this movie a lot of grief, but if you just look close, you'll see just how well Nolan, Goyer & Co understood these characters. Even a character like Crane, who would seem a pretty hollow villain otherwise (without a "back story") has illuminating lines like these -

"Outside, he was a giant. In here, only the mind can grant you power."

"You enjoy the reversal?"

"I respect the mind's power over the body. It's why I do what I do."

Small moments like this prove the filmmakers' understanding of these characters. We didn't even need the whole backstory about how Crane was picked on in school, etc..to understand his motivations. That's great, underrated character work!

And that's why I have faith in their Joker.

Exactly. The Batman Begins forums are now crawling with braindead Burtonites who do little more than overblown fragmentary dissections of the flaws in the film and endlessly rant about how Begins 'hits you over the head leaving nothing to the subtext or deeper meaning' yet it is ironic how they seem to miss character moments such as these that portray a good picture of how Crane's childhood might have been like without having to resort to pointless flashbacks or unnecessary exposition. And for so-called fans of the Batman lore to miss it and worse, chalking the film for 'ruining' the character? Disgustingly disappointing.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Exactly. The Batman Begins forums are now crawling with braindead Burtonites who do little more than overblown fragmentary dissections of the flaws in the film and endlessly rant about how Begins 'hits you over the head leaving nothing to the subtext or deeper meaning' yet it is ironic how they seem to miss character moments such as these that portray a good picture of how Crane's childhood might have been like without having to resort to pointless flashbacks or unnecessary exposition. And for so-called fans of the Batman lore to miss it and worse, chalking the film for 'ruining' the character? Disgustingly disappointing.

Give me an example, or a quote from any 'Burtonite' on these forums that has explicitly stated that BB ruined Batman.

Have any of my posts even remotely implied that? No.

Some people (not all), have adequate reasons for not liking BB. I made an entire thread where those people gathered.

 

[The Sage]

Well, I agree with you there.

However, if Ledger/Nolan WANT to outshine Nicholson's "attempt" at the Joker... then it absolutely *MUST* have the Clockwork Orange feel... Bizarre, yet funny, and you don't know why you're laughing because it's so damn disturbing, and you love it. That kind of thing.

And if Ledger mentioned Clockwork Orange, then this could be, could be, COULD BE.... The Movie-Joker we've been waiting for.

Haven't seen Clockwork Orange, but the description you made sounds dead on. I'm hoping the predictions of Ledger's Joker being quiet and not freaking out are dead wrong.

 

[Phaser]

That's not what was meant. I meant laughs coming from the Joker.

You're right: the Joker thinks he's funny. Therefore Ledger had better laugh his ass off at certain times. He needs to be laughing at some of his own jokes, due to the fact no one else thinks they're funny.

I certainly hope not. It is senseless expectations such as these why don't even bother coming to these boards anymore. Fans who claim to know the source material and the intricacies of the characters repeatedly expressing their 'fears' for this film. As if they actually know better...

The Joker should not burst into fits of hysterical laughter save for one or two key scenes in the film. The rest of the time, he should just giggle or do something a lot more subtle. Everyone here seems to be quite fond of The Killing Joke but they probably haven't noticed that the Joker laughed maniacally only two times in the entire story - first after his transformation and second in the end with Batman.

Same goes for Arkham Asylum, another one of my favorite Joker interpretation where he laughs a lot less than what you expect him to. Again, in that story as well, the Joker laughs his ass off only twice - once on the phone with Batman and the next was when he comes to greet Batman at the Asylum.

And if I might add, Frank Miller's depiction of the Joker is one I am especially fond of from the comics, for the simple reason that it is so underrated by the fans. It shows such a clear and gradual regression of the Joker's insanity and when just moments before his demise, he finally comes full circle.

The Joker uncontrollable laughter should not be some gimmick that he pulls every now and then. It only cheapens the character and makes him look like stereotypical madman. Instead, the Joker's laughter must be a device to communicate the shock and horror of this twisted clown's psyche and so, must be used sparingly. Rest of the time, he must be a abstract criminal genius the likes of Hannibal Lecter and John Doe from Se7en with a touch of zany clownish antics, only with less gore. The moment in DKR when Joker goes completely berserk with laughter before his doom is to me, by far, the most memorable moment of the character from the comics. It has such a profound impact on both the reader and the story itself in terms of the Joker's arc and shows what his laughter should be all about.

 

[Phaser]

Give me an example, or a quote from any 'Burtonite' on these forums that has explicitly stated that BB ruined Batman.

I was talking about Scarecrow, not Batman.

Have any of my posts even remotely implied that? No.

Did I ever say you did? Why so defensive?

Some people (not all), have adequate reasons for not liking BB. I made an entire thread where those people gathered.

And now those some people are essentially trolling the entire forum.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

I wrote a Joker origin story several days back. I altered the doctor's name to 'Miller' and switched 'wild' to 'uncontrollable.' When I was proof-reading it, I remembered you talking about uncontrollable laughter... and figured it was a better route to take as a word. Anyway.

 

[Arkard]

I certainly have came across a ton of... challenged young lads, to not use a more in-your-face term, who did actually claim Murphy ruined the movie. I have never felt so much and such quick contempt for human life as I did at that point.

And, if Nolan is going by Joker's first 2 appearances, I would like his smile and subsequently, laughter, to be a sort of Warning or a Triumph point. When he smiles, you KNOW it's time to start running. When he laughs, you may as well lie down and take it quickly. I think this is what we will get.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

I certainly hope not. It is senseless expectations such as these why don't even bother coming to these boards anymore. Fans who claim to know the source material and the intricacies of the characters repeatedly expressing their 'fears' for this film. As if they actually know better...

Expressing concerns about the film is a sign that some care about the outcome of things. Some actually care. This is not something to roll your eyes over. Be proud there are Batfans who continue to care about the franchise.

The Joker should not burst into fits of hysterical laughter save for one or two key scenes in the film. The rest of the time, he should just giggle or do something a lot more subtle. Everyone here seems to be quite fond of The Killing Joke but they probably haven't noticed that the Joker laughed maniacally only two times in the entire story - first after his transformation and second in the end with Batman.

That's not saying much to your argument. The Killing Joke wasn't that long to begin with. I went so far and made a thread about the shortness of the actual story (still floating around The Comics section somewhere, I guess).

Hey, it would be fine and dandy if Ledger's Joker laughed only two times hysterically. I'm just pointing out that it needs to at least be done.

Same goes for Arkham Asylum, another one of my favorite Joker interpretation where he laughs a lot less than what you expect him to. Again, in that story as well, the Joker laughs his ass off only twice - once on the phone with Batman and the next was when he comes to greet Batman at the Asylum.

That's great. Less is more, after all.

And if I might add, Frank Miller's depiction of the Joker is one I am especially fond of from the comics, for the simple reason that it is so underrated by the fans. It shows such a clear and gradual regression of the Joker's insanity and when just moments before his demise, he finally comes full circle.

If you have an appreciation for FM's Joker, then having an appreciation for B89 goes hand-in-hand with that. Not saying you don't have any liking for Burton's vision. Just saying that you seem unperceptive of fans who prefer Burton over Nolan.

The Joker uncontrollable laughter should not be some gimmick that he pulls every now and then. It only cheapens the character and makes him look like stereotypical madman. Instead, the Joker's laughter must be a device to communicate the shock and horror of this twisted clown's psyche and so, must be used sparingly. Rest of the time, he must be a abstract criminal genius the likes of Hannibal Lecter and John Doe from Se7en with a touch of zany clownish antics, only with less gore. The moment in DKR when Joker goes completely berserk with laughter before his doom is to me, by far, the most memorable moment of the character from the comics. It has such a profound impact on both the reader and the story itself in terms of the Joker's arc and shows what his laughter should be all about.

That was an admittance that there needs to be laughter. Joker laughter. Uncontrollable. Hysterical. But if the Joker laughs at every corner non-stop, then there will be no contrast to the truly evil deeds that he finds hilarious. This is something I agree on.

The question: Will Ledger pull it off in a satisfactory way? Nolan must have seen something in Ledger that got him the part. Was it the laughter itself? The eyes? I don't know. We won't know exactly until 2008.

I was talking about Scarecrow, not Batman.

My bad.

And to answer that: I don't think BB ruined Scarecrow. As far as being an important part of the storyline, the acting and delivery, Scarecrow was good. It's just that the necessary cosmetics were incomplete.

Did I ever say you did? Why so defensive?

In this thread so far, I'm the only one with BDB in my signature, and a B89 avatar. There's no need to group everyone together.

If someone speaks down on Batman Begins, they're not necessarily slamming/bashing it. The same applies to any Batman movie. If you point to the flaws in Mask of the Phantasm or Batman '89 while I'm in the discussion, I'm not going to come out and call you a braindead Nolanite who has no appreciation for Batman. That'd be pretty drastic.

 

[Beelze]

Hell, I'm putting my money on NO green hair and NO purple suit too.... You just watch. One year from now, when we finally see leaked pics, we're all gonna be up in arms with anger, guaranteed.

Well, concerning the Joker's appearance, Ledger did say this:

"That is my question as well. I suppose he will look like me, but I've been told that they are still in preliminary stages and I've seen no ideas yet. I've been told it will be the Joker and that the iconic look will be true. I hope it is."

'Course, things may change.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

It was nice to know that Ledger himself wants the classic/iconic look.

 

[raybia]

I just want to say this.

There is alot of speculation on the characterization of Nolan's Joker and how far removed many fear that his Joker will be from the Joker we all love and know.

However, I think that our fears may be unwarranted.

There are things to suggest that Nolan, instead of creating a "new" Joker may simply go to the very beginning for his version. Batman #1.

Remember as the first movie was BB, this movie will feature Joker Begins, meaning that whatever version of the Joker we see will only be the start and not a full spectrum of what his Joker will become.

In other words, expect both Bruce/Batman and the Joker to further evolve in their characterization towards what we the fans have come to know.

 

[Phaser]

Expressing concerns about the film is a sign that some care about the outcome of things. Some actually care. This is not something to roll your eyes over. Be proud there are Batfans who continue to care about the franchise.

I never said that they didn't care. I said that they themselves don't know any better about the characters they are expressing concerns over. Do you have a problem with proper reading comprehension, because this is the third time you read something I didn't say.

That's not saying much to your argument. The Killing Joke wasn't that long to begin with. I went so far and made a thread about the shortness of the actual story (still floating around The Comics section somewhere, I guess).

If you dismiss my argument on the basis of the length of The Killing Joke, then there's no use discussing this with you any further. Granted, it was not an exceptionally extensive story, but there was a lot of Joker in it and just flipping through the pages you can see there were a lot of times you expect him to break into laughter like we have stereotypically known the Joker to do so over the years but he didn't.

Hey, it would be fine and dandy if Ledger's Joker laughed only two times hysterically. I'm just pointing out that it needs to at least be done.

Of course. And I am pretty sure it will.

If you have an appreciation for FM's Joker, then having an appreciation for B89 goes hand-in-hand with that. Not saying you don't have any liking for Burton's vision. Just saying that you seem unperceptive of fans who prefer Burton over Nolan.

I liked the B89 Joker, even though there was far more Jack Nicholson than Joker there. Nevertheless, I took it as a great Elseworlds interpretation and have no problem with it. As for being unreceptive of fans who prefer Burton over Nolan, it has a lot to do with their condescending mentality with which they brush away fans of Nolan's take as being somehow less 'cultured' and 'sophisticated' when it comes to appreciating cinema. These days I don't have the time nor the energy to sit down and have a concise discourse with them, otherwise it's not hard expose the fallacies in their slanted criticism of Nolan's film and its fans. Granted, neither Burton's nor Nolan's films are perfect by a long stretch and both have their share of thickheaded radicals, but the fact remains that most of these so-called 'Nolanites' are newbies who can barely compose a grammatically correct post that can be easily dismissed but a lot of the Burtonites are actually well-articulated posters, but with their heads too far up their own asses to realize that yes, 'smart' fans can also love Begins.

For some weird reason, you seem bent one moment on having doubts, and then the next you are supporting TDK fully. You yourself have doubts that Ledger can pull it off. Just read some of your previous posts on this thread.

My approach towards TDK can be summed up in two words - curious optimism. Ever since Nolan brought Jonathan on board for writing duties, I was ecstatic, especially with promise of going even darker. I can't imagine how Ledger would play the Joker despite what he has revealed in interviews, but he has the smile. And his recent maturity as an actor also gives me hope that he most probably won't play it half-assed or give some cheap knock-off performance. Not to mention the fact that I simply loved The Prestige and can't wait to see how much Nolan improves TDK over BB. Of course, if something looks and sounds too good to be true, then chances are it probably is that way. My reservations are simply a kind of reality-check to keep myself from being disappointed when a stinker eventually does rear it's ugly head and these boards drown in chaos. I know this is an adaptation and there are bound to be changes, compromises will be made and ultimately many 'purists' and 'over-hypers' will be disappointed regardless of how good the film turns out to be. I know that at the end of the day, there is no way myself (or anyone else for that matter) is going to be 100% satisfied with any film over which they already had truckload of preconceived notions, if only for the simple reason that it wasn't how they imagined it to be and will go so far as hating the film for it.

My advice? Keep an open mind...and enjoy the ride.

That was an admittance that there needs to be laughter. Joker laughter. Uncontrollable. Hysterical. But if the Joker laughs at every corner non-stop, then there will be no contrast to the truly evil deeds that he finds hilarious. This is something I agree on.

Good.

And to answer that: I don't think BB ruined Scarecrow. As far as being an important part of the storyline, the acting and delivery, Scarecrow was good. It's just that the necessary cosmetics were incomplete.

And I think the Scarecrow was pretty much perfect in BB, would have loved to see more of him though. Concerning the cosmetics, his final outfit - mask+straitjacket was, in my opinion, actually a much better look for the villain than how we've seen him in the comics.

In this thread so far, I'm the only one with BDB in my signature, and a B89 avatar. There's no need to group everyone together.

I said the Burtonites in the Batman Begins forum. If you are actually in agreement with the exaggerated critiques of Cyrusbales and DocLathropBrown about Begins being a 'travesty' and 'one big screwup', then you deserve to be slapped with the same label.

If someone speaks down on Batman Begins, they're not necessarily slamming/bashing it. The same applies to any Batman movie. If you bring out the flaws in Batman (1989) while I'm in the discussion, I'm not going to come out and call you a braindead Nolanite who has no appreciation for Batman. That'd be pretty drastic.

That's what almost all Burton vs Nolan arguments boil down to.

 

[Superman45]

I don't think it's anything we are expecting. If he's going for the ORIGINAL comic approach, than that is considerably different than the Joker that we all know.

The Joker that I know, personally, is the one from The Animated Series.... and TRUST ME, Ledger will be the complete opposite of that.

If the original Joker from the comics was a serial killer who robbed banks, and if it's going to be "darker" and more "sinister", then I highly doubt that we're going to see The Joker laughing out loud in a voice that resembles Mark Hammill's. You might as well forget about making any comparisons to Mark Hammill's Joker. If you think we're getting TAS, B'89, or even Casear Romero, forget it.

I personally expect Ledger's Joker to be QUIET, and not laughing all the time. He's a very quiet actor, and you never see him "freaking out" on screen. I just don't see Ledger doing something "zany". I think the Joker will be serious and tragic, and maybe even too dark.

Hell, I'm putting my money on NO green hair and NO purple suit too.... You just watch. One year from now, when we finally see leaked pics, we're all gonna be up in arms with anger, guaranteed.

I think Ledger is one of those actors that surprises you. It will be something we never knew he could do.

 

[raybia]

ASA, WELCOME BACK PHASER!

By the way, I've been using your Avatar while you have been away. Hope you don't mind.

 

[Two-Face]

I just want to say this.

There is alot of speculation on the characterization of Nolan's Joker and how far removed many fear that his Joker will be from the Joker we all love and know.

However, I think that our fears may be unwarranted.

There are things to suggest that Nolan, instead of creating a "new" Joker may simply go to the very beginning for his version. Batman #1.

Remember as the first movie was BB, this movie will feature Joker Begins, meaning that whatever version of the Joker we see will only be the start and not a full spectrum of what his Joker will become.

In other words, expect both Bruce/Batman and the Joker to further evolve in their characterization towards what we the fans have come to know.

WE already had a "Joker Begins" in Batman 89, I want Joker to be unknown who's mysterious or doesn't remember his past but Nolan has to show Joker Origin then we see it as a flashback.

 

[Phaser]

ASA, WELCOME BACK PHASER!

Just dropping in for a short while. I'll probably start posting regularly after a couple more months, when we'll get the first pictures of Joker/Batman or the teaser.

By the way, I've been using your Avatar while you have been away. Hope you don't mind.

Hey, be my guest. I'm not around that much anyway.

 

[raybia]

WE already had a "Joker Begins" in Batman 89, I want Joker to be unknown who's mysterious or doesn't remember his past but Nolan has to show Joker Origin then we see it as a flashback.

I'm not suggesting an Joker origin story, I agree with your take. I'm referring to this.

Author: Jett
Friday, February 23, 2007 - 6:30 AM, 3:54 PM CENTRAL TIME: If this longtime, trusted insider friend of mine is correct -- and he usually is -- the all of y'all that don't want a "cut smile" for The Joker will be happy:

"For all your readers, FYI: The Joker will not have a 'cut mouth' or any such other 'gimmick' to explain his bizarre appearance. In fact, his origins will most likely not be examined.

As Chris Nolan has hinted, The Joker's exploits in The Dark Knight will closely follow The Joker's first appearance in BATMAN #1, Spring 1940. If you recall, I tipped you off about that well over a year ago!"

And for the record, I wasn't in favor of the "cut smile" either -- not that it would bother me or anything...

 

[Superwoman Prime]

I just want to say this.

There is alot of speculation on the characterization of Nolan's Joker and how far removed many fear that his Joker will be from the Joker we all love and know.

However, I think that our fears may be unwarranted.

There are things to suggest that Nolan, instead of creating a "new" Joker may simply go to the very beginning for his version. Batman #1.

Remember as the first movie was BB, this movie will feature Joker Begins, meaning that whatever version of the Joker we see will only be the start and not a full spectrum of what his Joker will become.

In other words, expect both Bruce/Batman and the Joker to further evolve in their characterization towards what we the fans have come to know.

That's a way of looking at it. Well, most villains of this evil magnitude are 2-dimensional. They're amazing (such as the Green Goblin), but they remain flat throughout the story. That means there isn't much moral change occuring from point A to point B (A-when the person becomes the villain, or the villain is first introduced, B-the end of the movie/resolution). If Nolan takes the approach of Joker gradually learning his own trade, then we arguably have a convoluted Joker that has an unprecedented depth from any other interpretation thus far.

It's possible that TDK will reflect the very early Golden Age Joker (the one we've all been talking about that will apparently be the inspiration), and then the third installment of Nolan's Batman trilogy will have Ledger's Joker formed into more something that *vaguely resembles B:TAS. I know that's jumping forward rather fast, through an entire era (skipping the Silver Age altogether).

*vaguely : I realize we won't receive a total B:TAS-esque Joker in the third installment. What I'm trying to say is that if the Joker is going to develop inside of the next two movies, then Nolan must convey a very obvious (and gradual) transformation.


And now: onto Phaser's post.

 

[Two-Face]

I'm not suggesting an Joker origin story, I agree with your take. I'm referring to this.

Author: Jett
Friday, February 23, 2007 - 6:30 AM, 3:54 PM CENTRAL TIME: If this longtime, trusted insider friend of mine is correct -- and he usually is -- the all of y'all that don't want a "cut smile" for The Joker will be happy:

"For all your readers, FYI: The Joker will not have a 'cut mouth' or any such other 'gimmick' to explain his bizarre appearance. In fact, his origins will most likely not be examined.

As Chris Nolan has hinted, The Joker's exploits in The Dark Knight will closely follow The Joker's first appearance in BATMAN #1, Spring 1940. If you recall, I tipped you off about that well over a year ago!"

And for the record, I wasn't in favor of the "cut smile" either -- not that it would bother me or anything...

I haven't read this so thanks for the post Raybia, I diddn't want "cut smile" as well and I'm happy that Nolan is going right direction for The Joker and Jokers Origin should be left out as well.

 

[Miranda Fox]

If someone speaks down on Batman Begins, they're not necessarily slamming/bashing it. The same applies to any Batman movie. If you bring out the flaws in Batman (1989) while I'm in the discussion, I'm not going to come out and call you a braindead Nolanite who has no appreciation for Batman. That'd be pretty drastic.

Right. Because that never happens.

Am. So. Tired. Of. This. Crap.

Can't we all just agree that both takes have their pluses and minuses and leave it? Why does everything have to be 'MY fav version is better!' 'No, mine is, U H0R!'

Honestly, I really don't care for that BDB sig - it's passive aggressive at best. But people can have whatever they like in their sigs. Although, frankly, if anyone did better, it would be Dini...

/off-topic rant.