Jake Cassidy
Avenger
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2007
- Messages
- 18,237
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then all I need is a hot looking woman and I am set
I'll have Megan and you can have Isabel. Fair?
then all I need is a hot looking woman and I am set
That's pretty much the idea of how the Transformers speak and act like humans. On Cybertron, Prime was a leadership figure, so he sounds like one here. Jazz was...well, Jazz, and he appropriated mannerisms that fit his own existing personality. They appropriated personalities based on human culture.
I think a lot of people do. It's humorous to watch people who don't know what racism is claim it exists here. But it's also sad.
People are so sensitive these days
im sure if they acting like rednecks there wouldnt have been a single outcry of racism
Nope, they would have just been called annoying if they were acting like rednecks. I hate and pity this society sometimes.
I haven't watched RotF. I didn't care for the first Transformers movie so this one didn't interest me. But I have read about the twin thing, and seeing what Bay did with Jazz, it didn't give me much hope.
I may agree with most of what you have posted but this single sentence renders any argumment you may have null and void.
The same for many out there. You're judging something based on what you read somewhere or what someone told you?!
How about making your own mind, making an oppinion based on your own ideas, see it before passing judgement.
Then you'll have the right to judge. Otherwise you're just part of a mob, fueled by the belief and oppinion of someone else.
How is gangster rap the same thing as a minstrel show? Seems to me like it's almost the polar opposite. Negative, perhaps, but in a markedly different way.
Of course it is not a direct descendent. They are different in terms of being more sophisticated and up-to-date, but just like minstrel shows or later coon songs gangsta rap has devolved into turning black urban youth, primarily, into carciatures that sometimes seem too much like the images that animated the minstrel shows or came out of them. The gangsta rappers become tricksters (hustlers) or brutes/bucks (thugs), women are overly sexualized or scheming (jezebels and sapphires). Minstrel shows, coon songs, and gangsta rap are all similar in terms of being mass forms of entertainment that trade in racial stereotypes, mainly with black people being the target or butt of the joke.
Here is a coon song I got from wikipedia. How much is this different than most of the content of a gangsta rap song today?
Last night I did go to a big Crap game,
How dem coons did gamble wuz a sin and a shame...
I'm gambling for my Sadie,
Cause she's my lady,
I'm a hustling coon, ... dat's just what I am.[
Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
If you can explain to me how the bots in the movie actually qualify as racist, I'm all ears.
I haven't seen the movie. I don't know if its racist or not. I didn't say that it was. But I defend the right of people to call it that if they see it, and it bothers me that others rush to dismiss it out of hand without really asking why it would be, like you have done to some extent.
But from what I have read about the film, I can say this. In general when you single out a certain group and ascribe negative traits to that group or the representatives of that group (without a counterbalance), you make that group less than (i.e. we don't read). I'm sure that other Transformers might not have been able to read that language, but did they make a big deal about it, did they announce it? Also, the gold teeth and I'm going to pop a cap in your ash statements, which would likely be seen as looks, vernacular from black culture, and when then these two are the most prominent 'black' characters in the film, it reinforces ideas that all blacks are like that, that black culture is ignorant, and might imply that if the culture is ignorant, then the people who produced that culture are ignorant. I.E. not like us, and perhaps less than, or inferior, to us.
As I said before, I didn't see the film and I have no intention of seeing it, for reasons beyond the twins stuff. I can speak on the first film though. I think that Jazz due to Scatman Carruthers playing him on the old cartoon, and his name to some extent, could be seen to be the 'black' Transformer. However, Scatman wasn't gangsta/ghetto or I guess in his case a coon type of character. The old Jazz was just a robot voiced by a notable black star of a bygone era. The new Jazz was more gangsta rap stereotypical, it's like some people only see black people a certain way, and then just project that way onto all black people, black youth in particular. With his hip hop slang and of course they killed him off, and didn't bring him back. Which is another trope of movies that has become so obvious over the years that comics and directors themselves have noted the concept, played with it, or turned it on its head.
The majority of black people in the mass media are depicted as ignorant and gangster?
Really?
Do you really want to stick with that statement?
You are correct. Perhaps I should've said ghetto instead of gangsta. There is a predominance of these type of ghetto roles/characterizations in the mass media. These type of roles are injected into stuff that doesn't even need them. I was watching the movie Baby Mama (the term itself taken from hip hop slang), the other day and the sole black character, a doorman, was introduced us rapping. Why? There was no need to do that, and it didn't really make him any funnier, or less, but I see this kind of stuff being done all the time. You have gangsta rap videos, reality TV shows, Oz, The Wire, countless gangsta/hood movies over the years (ex. New Jack City, Boyz N the Hood, Baby Boy, Menace II Society, Get Rich or Die Tryin', Waist Deep, American Gangster, Notorious), comedians, or these seeming default where all or many black characters have to come from the hood or have a gangsta/criminal background or tie. That is when black characters are even given a background. Which leads to another issue, a bone of contention, the lack of development of black characters in a lot of films, TV shows, etc. This image is so prevelant that FOX news thought they could get away with calling Michelle Obama a 'baby mama' during the campaign and RNC Chairman Michael Steele embarrasses himself and his party in his attempts to talk 'street' at times because he believes that is more authentic than just being straight up with people. The black experience in America, not to mention, globally, is multifaceted, but is often potrayed through a very narrow lense. When most people think of crack, poverty, gangs, welfare they connect it with black people primarily and I think mass media has helped make, popularize, and strengthen those associations. True that those social ills affect black people, but they are not the province of blacks in this country alone though they are often seen as endemic of black people and perhaps black culture. There is always talk of black culture in the mainstream media as if it is deficient, as if they don't share 'our' values, and stuff perhaps like the twins, if what the critics say is true, are not helping bridge gaps in racial/ethnic/cultural understanding.
Only for idiots. People who can't rationalize, and assess the reality of the world, with all the different kinds of people around them.
I disagree that racism or prejudice is solely based on ignorance. A lot of smart people throughout history, Thomas Jefferson and even Abraham Lincoln for example, have held racist or anti-black views. It's not just about being stupid. I guess its ignorance in a sense of not understanding or having knowledge of black history, black culture, of looking at it through blinders. I don't think its the kind of knuckle dragging ignorance displayed perhaps by some members, but not all, in the Klan. But I would contend that in our busy, hectic world that there isn't a lot of time to study, or explore other cultures. We all too often go with the condensed version that we see in bits/bite sizes from the mass media, and that can lead some people to think that all black people are poor, on welfare, think or act a certain way, and when they see one that doesn't, then they say, "He or she is not like the rest of them," instead of realizing there isn't a 'rest of them.' Plus, these images are pretty old, and IMO, have just been repackaged over the years, and at times have been embraced or at least internalized by white and black people, in Hollywood, and in the country at large. Heck, the world even. The child-like sambo (Tracy Morgan/30 Rock?), the fat mammy (Madea?), the buffoon (T-Pain, Flava Flav, Lil' Wayne?), the old uncle (Just about every Morgan Freeman role?), buck/brute (50 Cent?), the shiftless, lazy, criminally prone, sexually irresponsible fun-loving darkies (too many actors to count), these type of images have been seeded in our subconscious, and since Hollywood seems allergic to new ideas, often resorts to going back to them from time to time
Obviously it did have to be, in the director's mind. Because Bay values that style, that MTV culture that a LOT of kids have bought into.
Bay may 'value' that style, but I wish he didn't. MTV culture is not synomous with hip hop or black youth culture. What might be a cool, hip style for him can have a serious impact on black youth and their life outcomes. Whereas white kids who embrace hip hop culture and its views and standards regarding dress, behavior, etc., can more easily merge back into the dominant culture when its time to enter the job market, the glut of these type of ghetto/gangsta images might make it harder for blacks to get jobs because they are already perceived as being a certain kind of way. And if there isn't a strong counterbalance to that, it makes people more accepting that what the media tells them is the truth.
If anything, I don't think there are many black people who are on the Hills or a lot of the other shows on MTV in large numbers, except perhaps Pimp My Ride. MTV has been a bastion and purveyor of white middle class and maybe upper class youth culture and I think black people fit a certain niche there, but I don't think MTV has been all that good at promoting a full idea of black youth culture or even the music in that culture. It takes what it wants and leaves the rest to wither on the vine. But BET or VH-1 aren't any better in that regard.
Well that's all well and good...
But what does that have to do with Transformers?
As I was reading through the comments, I saw a few black people also saying that the twins weren't racist. And they may not be to be fair. But I just wanted to point that just because some black people might be okay with it, others may not and that its okay for the critics to say their piece.
That is an entirely seperate issue. And what, in this movie, suggests that all blacks are like this?
For me it's not about RotF per se, this debate flares up from time to time about a lot of things, RE5 being a recent example, and it's the broader issues that I was concerned about. It's bigger than RotF, this kind of being unsympathetic, this rush to deny racism or stereotypes without any mention, knowledge, dismissal, or concern for historical context (it seems), and the hasty, at times hostile defensive denials (almost as if the deniers have a personal stake in saying racism doesn't exist, unless of course its blacks being racist against whites, the only racism, or reverse racism that doesn't get hoots from many posters, on this forum or others).
I did see the first Transformers though, and I thought Jazz was stereotypical and of course they killed him off, which was another stereotype. Perhaps Bay was trying to be funny and/or hip, but I feel it was at the expense of black people in the first film. They may not have been his intention, and it actually wasn't why I didn't like the first film. I didn't care for many of the Transformer designs, the action was hard to follow, I can't stand Shia LeBouf, and I thought the ending was stupid. I didn't care for Jar Jar Binks, but that didn't stop me from enjoying most of the SW prequels, the Clone Wars, etc. But it was something that pissed me off I must admit. But at least GL had Mace Windu, and several background Jedi were black. Transformers films have only had blacks as comic relief and Tyrese as the muscle behind Josh Duhamel.
It's not about RoTF. It's about the trend that is growing of people talking about stuff they don't even know about just because they hear or read about it, they go with the flow.
I don't denny the existence of racism, i'd be a fool if i did. But racism isn't a white people exclusive, there's racism in every race for every race and sometimes even between people of the same race. Maybe one day that will change. Hope so.
As for Jazz, even though he died, he was a badass, he went down fighting, even knowing it didn't stand a chance. Epps is the muscle? He a "Tech Sargeant", he's responsible for comms and strategic deployment, a job that demands intelligence. But when the time comes he's also a badass. If i went to war and i had to choose between Epps and Lennox, i'd choose Epps.
And funny scenes at the expense of black people? I saw funny scene with characters tha just happened, in some cases (Glenn, mostly), to be black.
Go see any recent Wayans Bros. film (Scary Movie and all the following "(...) Movie (or Flick)" series) and you have stereotype white characters everywhere. Does anyone cry "RACISM"? No.
It all comes down to the feel of a character. The Twins.. they're stereotype dumb bickering kids, gangsta wannabees, whatever you call it. But did i feel any racist intent towards any particular group? Did i immediately think "black guy"? No. Kevin Fedderline idiot type,maybe.
I keep saying people are reading way too much into this. If you hated the first movie, i won't tell you to go watch this, all i'm sayin' is don't judge them without actually seeing them and getting that feel. Then yes, make up your mind.
As for SW, my beef with Jar-Jar isn't that he's a stereotype, he just pisses the bad place out of me, he's annoying. And Mace Windu, come on, Samuel L. Jackson is the king of cool, it would take a lot to ruin that character. He was killed off. Should we read anything more into that? No.
I'm not going with the flow. As I said, this issue does pop up and the responses are almost always the same. And I wanted to put my two cents in there, on the broader issue of images in the media.
I would contend that racism doesn't go both ways, at least not the way I think you are implying. I think there is a power component to racism that black people have never had in this country. Black people have never had the power to alter the life outcomes of white people, to determine where they will live, what type of jobs or education they will receive, who they will marry and so forth. And when that has been done, to the detriment of one group for the benefit of another, I consider that racism. Are some black people prejudiced or biased against whites or others? Yes. But that hasn't translated into policies codifying those biases to affect other groups, like it has been with whites and blacks in this country.
I'm sure someone somewhere had problems with the potrayal of whites in Scary Movie, and if they wanted to write an article(s) about it I defend their right to do so. Just like I defend the right of blacks, brown, whites, yellows, etc. who might have problems with the Twins in Rotf. I don't think its such an issue among many in the majority because they have so many more movies or options to choose from in terms of how they are viewed as a group. This is a majority dominated culture, in which whites can more easily be individuals when a white person does something bad or is a buffoon, or take group credit, vicariously perhaps, when a member of the group does something noteworthy.
Blacks' position, IMO and I'm speaking only as one black person, have a less secure position. All too often, we are still lumped together and have to explain ourselves, sometimes for the behavior of other black people. For example, one criticism of blacks during the campaign was they were voting for Obama because he was black and that was it. It was very insulting but I think a lot of white folks had no problem with that premise. And it's funny that many who believed that never questioned who they were voting or had in the past or why, or looked at the record of black support for white Democrats from FDR on down to John Kerry. Nor did they remember that Al Sharpton, Carol M. Braun, and Douglas Wilder got almost zero black support, despite each of them running for the Democratic nomination-Wilder in '92, Sharpton and Braun in '04. Conversely, Colin Powell's support was seen as purely racial, when I didn't see him supporting Alan Keyes during his many runs for the presidency. Its just an example of the tendency to lump all black people together at times. Typically white people don't have to deal with that type of problem.
In many ways blacks are fighting against negative portrayals from centuries back that white people have never had to deal with. Even when most black comics poke fun at whites they often regurgitate the ideas that whites are smarter and more hard working, though they might be stuffier or can't dance or play basketball or whatever nonsense, which I personally don't consider that much of an insult. But the comics often trade in some of the same terrible stereotypes about black people that white have been using, and some still use. Blacks being lazy, smoking drugs, being criminals, etc. Dave Chapelle's lauded show is a prime example of this. It took me a long time to get into that show, and it bothered me because I began to see the largely white audience laughing at Dave and his characters, not laughing with them. And it made me wonder if this type of 'humor' really bridges gaps or just confirms what people already believe?
I agree that Jar Jar is quite annoying He would be without the stereotype stuff, but that makes it even worse. Of course I had no problem with Jackson dying. That was what was supposed to happen to the Jedi. Though I do wish that we had seen more of his character active, and many other Jedi, in the Clone Wars, but before anyone gets hot, I don't see that as any GL agenda, just his poor direction and lacks in his scriptwriting.
About Tyrese, in this film does he actually use any intelligence or does he mostly just follow Dumahel's lead? I didn't see him doing much strategizing in the first film. Though I didn't have a problem with Tyrese in the first film. He's just a second banana. A black buddy/sidekick type character.
They Wernt Racists they sounded like me and my Best friend when we play halo
For Comedy Relief Characters they were pretty bad ash too
[My theater laughed at all their jokes too , Specially when they Called Sam's Roommate A wuss]
But the comics often trade in some of the same terrible stereotypes about black people that white have been using, and some still use. Blacks being lazy, smoking drugs, being criminals, etc. Dave Chapelle's lauded show is a prime example of this. It took me a long time to get into that show, and it bothered me because I began to see the largely white audience laughing at Dave and his characters, not laughing with them. And it made me wonder if this type of 'humor' really bridges gaps or just confirms what people already believe?
About Tyrese, in this film does he actually use any intelligence or does he mostly just follow Dumahel's lead? I didn't see him doing much strategizing in the first film. Though I didn't have a problem with Tyrese in the first film. He's just a second banana. A black buddy/sidekick type character.
If I'm not mistaken Optimus said that they learned their language from the worldwide web. He never said they learned their mannerisms from it.
Just to see if I am or am not one of those people, would you mind explaining racism to me? I just want to make sure I know the correct meaning.
For me it's not about RotF per se, this debate flares up from time to time about a lot of things, RE5 being a recent example, and it's the broader issues that I was concerned about. It's bigger than RotF, this kind of being unsympathetic, this rush to deny racism or stereotypes without any mention, knowledge, dismissal, or concern for historical context (it seems), and the hasty, at times hostile defensive denials (almost as if the deniers have a personal stake in saying racism doesn't exist, unless of course its blacks being racist against whites, the only racism, or reverse racism that doesn't get hoots from many posters, on this forum or others).
Of course it is not a direct descendent. They are different in terms of being more sophisticated and up-to-date, but just like minstrel shows or later coon songs gangsta rap has devolved into turning black urban youth, primarily, into carciatures that sometimes seem too much like the images that animated the minstrel shows or came out of them.
The gangsta rappers become tricksters (hustlers) or brutes/bucks (thugs), women are overly sexualized or scheming (jezebels and sapphires).
Minstrel shows, coon songs, and gangsta rap are all similar in terms of being mass forms of entertainment that trade in racial stereotypes, mainly with black people being the target or butt of the joke.
Here is a coon song I got from wikipedia. How much is this different than most of the content of a gangsta rap song today?
Last night I did go to a big Crap game,
How dem coons did gamble wuz a sin and a shame...
I'm gambling for my Sadie,
Cause she's my lady,
I'm a hustling coon, ... dat's just what I am.
I haven't seen the movie. I don't know if its racist or not. I didn't say that it was. But I defend the right of people to call it that if they see it, and it bothers me that others rush to dismiss it out of hand without really asking why it would be, like you have done to some extent.
But from what I have read about the film, I can say this. In general when you single out a certain group and ascribe negative traits to that group or the representatives of that group (without a counterbalance), you make that group less than (i.e. we don't read).
I'm sure that other Transformers might not have been able to read that language, but did they make a big deal about it, did they announce it? Also, the gold teeth and I'm going to pop a cap in your ash statements, which would likely be seen as looks, vernacular from black culture, and when then these two are the most prominent 'black' characters in the film, it reinforces ideas that all blacks are like that, that black culture is ignorant, and might imply that if the culture is ignorant, then the people who produced that culture are ignorant. I.E. not like us, and perhaps less than, or inferior, to us.
You are correct. Perhaps I should've said ghetto instead of gangsta. There is a predominance of these type of ghetto roles/characterizations in the mass media. These type of roles are injected into stuff that doesn't even need them. I was watching the movie Baby Mama (the term itself taken from hip hop slang), the other day and the sole black character, a doorman, was introduced us rapping. Why? There was no need to do that, and it didn't really make him any funnier, or less, but I see this kind of stuff being done all the time.
You have gangsta rap videos, reality TV shows, Oz, The Wire, countless gangsta/hood movies over the years (ex. New Jack City, Boyz N the Hood, Baby Boy, Menace II Society, Get Rich or Die Tryin', Waist Deep, American Gangster, Notorious), comedians, or these seeming default where all or many black characters have to come from the hood or have a gangsta/criminal background or tie.
That is when black characters are even given a background. Which leads to another issue, a bone of contention, the lack of development of black characters in a lot of films, TV shows, etc.
This image is so prevelant that FOX news thought they could get away with calling Michelle Obama a 'baby mama' during the campaign and RNC Chairman Michael Steele embarrasses himself and his party in his attempts to talk 'street' at times because he believes that is more authentic than just being straight up with people.
The black experience in America, not to mention, globally, is multifaceted, but is often potrayed through a very narrow lense. When most people think of crack, poverty, gangs, welfare they connect it with black people primarily and I think mass media has helped make, popularize, and strengthen those associations. True that those social ills affect black people, but they are not the province of blacks in this country alone though they are often seen as endemic of black people and perhaps black culture. There is always talk of black culture in the mainstream media as if it is deficient, as if they don't share 'our' values, and stuff perhaps like the twins, if what the critics say is true, are not helping bridge gaps in racial/ethnic/cultural understanding.
I disagree that racism or prejudice is solely based on ignorance. A lot of smart people throughout history, Thomas Jefferson and even Abraham Lincoln for example, have held racist or anti-black views.
It's not just about being stupid. I guess its ignorance in a sense of not understanding or having knowledge of black history, black culture, of looking at it through blinders.
I don't think its the kind of knuckle dragging ignorance displayed perhaps by some members, but not all, in the Klan. But I would contend that in our busy, hectic world that there isn't a lot of time to study, or explore other cultures. We all too often go with the condensed version that we see in bits/bite sizes from the mass media, and that can lead some people to think that all black people are poor, on welfare, think or act a certain way, and when they see one that doesn't, then they say, "He or she is not like the rest of them," instead of realizing there isn't a 'rest of them.' Plus, these images are pretty old, and IMO, have just been repackaged over the years, and at times have been embraced or at least internalized by white and black people, in Hollywood, and in the country at large. Heck, the world even.
The child-like sambo (Tracy Morgan/30 Rock?), the fat mammy (Madea?), the buffoon (T-Pain, Flava Flav, Lil' Wayne?), the old uncle (Just about every Morgan Freeman role?), buck/brute (50 Cent?), the shiftless, lazy, criminally prone, sexually irresponsible fun-loving darkies (too many actors to count), these type of images have been seeded in our subconscious, and since Hollywood seems allergic to new ideas, often resorts to going back to them from time to time.
Bay may 'value' that style, but I wish he didn't. MTV culture is not synomous with hip hop or black youth culture.
What might be a cool, hip style for him can have a serious impact on black youth and their life outcomes.
Whereas white kids who embrace hip hop culture and its views and standards regarding dress, behavior, etc., can more easily merge back into the dominant culture when its time to enter the job market, the glut of these type of ghetto/gangsta images might make it harder for blacks to get jobs because they are already perceived as being a certain kind of way.
And if there isn't a strong counterbalance to that, it makes people more accepting that what the media tells them is the truth.
As I was reading through the comments, I saw a few black people also saying that the twins weren't racist. And they may not be to be fair. But I just wanted to point that just because some black people might be okay with it, others may not and that its okay for the critics to say their piece.
Outside of Tyrese, are these twins the only 'black' characters in the film? Or the ones with speaking roles? And if you have a diversity of white characters in the film but only two 'black' ghetto characters, what is that supposed to imply about black people (African American youth culture)
In a lot of majority themed films, you have a limited number of blacks and they sometimes are portrayed in a negative light. Now, if this happens over and over again, I think it reinforces negative ideas about black people, because the same type of portrayals are seen time and time again, it becomes almost a truism.
It's not just one film. For me, this issue isn't about one film. It's about the history of cinema in regards to how blacks have been portrayed. That's why when I heard that this twin thing might be racist or offensive, I wasn't shocked. It's not that uncommon. It hasn't been in the past, or in the present. And perhaps not in the future either. Until there are more black people involved in all phases of the creative process in Hollywood and some of the non-traditional black portrayals start making money, the cycle isn't likely to be broken.
I thought they were more vulgar than "ghetto". Jazz was worse
You DO know that one of the Twins was voiced by a black guy right? And they both "Kenny and Wilson" pretty much made up the characters whilest voiceing them...right?
/snipped for length
What the bad place?? How in the world is Jazz worse than the Twins. At least Jazz was not acting ghetto the WHOLE movie like the twins. Jazz only did a breakdance and said " Whats Crackin Little *****es" thats it. Plus Jazz was more noble than the twins he wanted to save bumblebee when he got captured.