Revenge of the Fallen The Twins: Racist?

[The Guard]

Michael Bay loves stereotypes. Almost every single character in the movie is a stereotype somehow, on some level. Every single one, from the soldiers, to the government agents, to Sam himself, to Optimus freaking Prime. There's no point in denying that.

That said, let's bring some civility back into this discussion.

Fine. But that is a contemporary reading. The problem is that the twins mirror the type of caricatures often presented in the early-mid 1900's. There is a historical pretext for what the twins are being accused of representing. It's not a simple "they're hip-hop kids" argument.

How is there a historical pretext? How do they fit it? Can you elaborate? What elements do The Twins have that mirror mid 1900's caricatures?

Interesting slashfilm article on the subject:

http://www.slashfilm.com/2009/06/25/...-transformers/

No one wants to own up to racism because there really isn't any. There are stereotypes, and stereotypes and racism, while they can intersect, are not the same thing. Seems to me that while they're mildly uncomfortable with the situation, it's the crappy inclusion of the Twins that they don't want to own up to, as well as some of the other crappy elements of the movie. There's a subtle "don't blame us for all the crap" bit in there about how they have no control over the final movie.

A. Yes and No. Some black people do act like that...to an extent. But ultimately no. This felt more like an interpretation by someone who's never met an actual black person but has seen them on tv. "We's don't do much reading?" NEVER.

Interesting.

I never said "Do you go out into the world and see and hear all black people acting like that?" I asked you if you had ever seen people acting like (similar to) that before, and in particular, black people.

I also said "acting like the Twins to", and I meant "do". Whoops.

Anyway, by your own admission per your comments above, you have seen black people act like that, in the real world, to an extent, correct?

Myself, I live in Columbus, Ohio. OHIO, mind you. I see and hear things similar to the words the Twins are spouting almost every day here.

During the movie, by the way, I did not hear: "We's don't do much reading" (which you don't hear in the real world because in the real world, people aren't cartoony robots who are trying to move the plot along, because if they COULD read ancient Cybertronian, there'd be no point in Sam's journey).

I heard:

"Read? Nuh uh, uh...we don't really do much reading." with relatively good diction. Not the "Oh, I's don' know, we's don't do much reading, suh" that some here seem to be reaching for.

Frankly, I thought they spoke decent English. They just spoke in slang. But heck, their English was better than a lot of other characters' dialogues.

B. Makes them feel insulted.

Why the dickens would they personally feel insulted, especially if they don't, themselves, act like Mudflap and Skids?

Hell, I was offended in the beginning when that Decepticon went through that building and that asian man was eating rice with a chopstick. It was like...wtf? WHY is this here? I may not be asian, but I've been friends with many of them, dated more and am engaged to one now. I felt bad too. I don't like seeing super stereotypes like this about any race.

A Decepticon goes through a wall...and an old man is sitting there eating, completely unrattled. Yes, there's a little musical sting. Yes, he's eating noodles. Do Asians not eat noodles?

That's a stereotype. How is that inherently racist?

I get that it's a stereotype, and what level of stereotype offends you is, frankly, your business.

But this isn't racism. That isn't someone going "All Asians are like this" or saying that Asians are inferior.

D. Oh there are QUITE a few people on this thread who claimed they were rednecks(that has died down some since more have seen the film and it's become undeniable who they were REALLY supposed to be). As for the voicework, I think that's more because Tom Kenny's delivery is kind of high and whiny(not unlike his Spongebob voice). There was a couple and their kid who even realized it was Spongebob's voice at one point.

There were quite a few people who heard there was a redneck element to them (and you can hear it in their voices several times), and said things like "If they're partially rednecks, this will be a moot point". After the movie was viewed, people have realized they're intended to be more "wannabe ghetto gangster".

And this nonsense about how The Twins facial features are somehow supposed to be racist...I'm sorry people, they're cartoon robots. That simply doesn't hold water. Not only on a concept level, but on a visual level, either.

It's the facial features and "minstrel-like" behaviour, essentially using historically famous racially charged antics purely to be laughed at, that's the problem.

So tell me this...if a white man displays happy, excited behavior, and speaks in slang, is that minstrel?

Are you implying that no element of black culture should be used for comedy?

Is that what you're getting at here?

Because that's certainly what it sounds like to me, since apparently happy, stereotype ghetto characters are being compared to "minstrel" elements. I find that comparison absurd, and reaching, at best.

It's time for me to pull out the dictionary...or, in this case, Wikipedia:

The minstrel show, or minstrelsy, was an American entertainment consisting of comic skits, variety acts, dancing, and music, performed by white people in blackface or, especially after the Civil War, black people in blackface.

Minstrel shows lampooned black people in mostly disparaging ways: as ignorant, lazy, buffoonish, superstitious, joyous, and musical.

So...are Mudflap and Skids white people dressed as blacks? How do you even begin to make that distinction with a green and red alien robot?

Does no one see how ridiculous this is?

You want to talk about the history of racism, let's. Historically, racism involves more than black people being portrayed as goodnatured and fun, or every single Bernie Mac episode would be a minstrel show. It involves the basic tenet of racism, that one race is better or superior to another. I simply do not see that here. On any level.

The twins really have no purpose within the film other than to act like idiots for a laugh. There's nothing wrong with comic relief, but when it seems entirely inspired and derived from racial stereotyping, it becomes a cause for concern.

A cause for concern in the quality of screenwriting.

Not a cause of concern in terms of potential racism.

 

[chaseter]

It seems to me that the people that hated or really disliked the movie cry racism just to fuel their fire and gain ammo to bash this movie. Which, is childish.

 

[Darthkush]

Can we stop accusing each other of being racists? There seem to be two sides to this argument but I don't see anything here that indicates any of us are racists. So please, let's keep some civility.

I just found an interesting article that I haven't seen on this thread yet....

Transformers' Jive-Talking Robots Raise Race Issues


LOS ANGELES — Harmless comic characters or racist robots? The buzz over the summer blockbuster "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen" only grew Wednesday as some said two jive-talking Chevy characters were racial caricatures. Skids and Mudflap, twin robots disguised as compact hatchbacks, constantly brawl and bicker in rap-inspired street slang. They're forced to acknowledge that they can't read. One has a gold tooth.

As good guys, they fight alongside the Autobots and are intended to provide comic relief. But their traits raise the specter of stereotypes most notably seen when Jar Jar Binks, the clumsy, broken-English speaking alien from "Star Wars: Episode I _ The Phantom Menace," was criticized as a caricature.

One fan called the Transformers twins "Jar Jar Bots" in a blog post online.

Todd Herrold, who watched the movie in New York City, called the characters "outrageous."

"It's one thing when robot cars are racial stereotypes," he said, "but the movie also had a bucktoothed black guy who is briefly in one scene who's also a stereotype."

"They're like the fools," said 18-year-old Nicholas Govede, also of New York City. "The comic relief in a degrading way."

Not all fans were offended. Twin brothers Jason and William Garcia, 18, who saw the movie in Miami, said they related to the characters _ not their illiteracy, but their bickering.

"They were hilarious," Jason said. "Every movie has their standout character, and I think they were the ones for this movie."

In Atlanta, Rico Lawson said people were reading too much into the characters. "It was actually funny," said Lawson, 25, who saw the movie with his girlfriend in Atlanta.

That was the aim, director Michael Bay said in an interview.

"It's done in fun," he said. "I don't know if it's stereotypes _ they are robots, by the way. These are the voice actors. This is kind of the direction they were taking the characters and we went with it."

Bay said the twins' parts "were kind of written but not really written, so the voice actors is when we started to really kind of come up with their characters."

Actor Reno Wilson, who is black, voices Mudflap. Tom Kenny, the white actor behind SpongeBob SquarePants, voices Skids.

Wilson said Wednesday that he never imagined viewers might consider the twins to be racial caricatures. When he took the role, he was told that the alien robots learned about human culture through the Web and that the twins were "wannabe gangster types."

"It's an alien who uploaded information from the Internet and put together the conglomeration and formed this cadence, way of speaking and body language that was accumulated over X amount of years of information and that's what came out," the 40-year-old actor said. "If he had uploaded country music, he would have come out like that."

It's not fair to assume the characters are black, he said.

"It could easily be a Transformer that uploaded Kevin Federline data," Wilson said. "They were just like posers to me."

Kenny did not respond to an interview request Wednesday.

"I purely did it for kids," the director said. "Young kids love these robots, because it makes it more accessible to them."

Screenwriters Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman said they followed Bay's lead in creating the twins. Still, the characters aren't integral to the story, and when the action gets serious, they disappear entirely, notes Tasha Robinson, associate entertainment editor at The Onion.

"They don't really have any positive effect on the film," she said. "They only exist to talk in bad ebonics, beat each other up and talk about how stupid each other is."

Hollywood has a track record of using negative stereotypes of black characters for comic relief, said Todd Boyd, a professor of popular culture at the University of Southern California's School of Cinematic Arts, who has not seen the "Transformers" sequel.

"There's a history of people getting laughs at the expense of African-Americans and African-American culture," Boyd said. "These images are not completely divorced from history even though it's a new movie and even though they're robots and not humans."

American cinema also has a tendency to deal with race indirectly, said Allyson Nadia Field, an assistant professor of cinema and media studies at the University of California, Los Angeles.

"There's a persistent dehumanization of African-Americans throughout Hollywood that displaces issues of race onto non-human entities," said Field, who also hasn't seen the film. "It's not about skin color or robot color. It's about how their actions and language are coded racially."

If these characters weren't animated and instead played by real black actors, "then you might have to admit that it's racist," Robinson said. "But stick it into a robot's mouth, and it's just a robot, it's OK."

But if they're alien robots, she continued, "why do they talk like bad black stereotypes?"

Bay brushes off any whiff of controversy.

"Listen, you're going to have your naysayers on anything," he said. "It's like is everything going to be melba toast? It takes all forms and shapes and sizes."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/24/transformers-jivetalking-_n_220005.html


So in a way guys, all of us have been right and wrong in a way. It's clear that the twins were not(at least originally ) intended to be the subject of such controversy. Reno Wilson claims he wasn't offended and that he and Kenny were told what some of you suspected about them learning this speak from the internet. Kenny won't comment. That doesn't mean anything so we shouldn't read much into that. Bay thinks it's harmless fun. Orci and Kurtzman make it as if they had nothing to do with Skids and Mudflap and how they were portrayed and they insinuate that they can see why it's seen as offensive. Allyson Field's comment at the end of her statment is interesting too though.

If these characters weren't animated and instead played by real black actors, "then you might have to admit that it's racist," Robinson said. "But stick it into a robot's mouth, and it's just a robot, it's OK."

Is it? Oh and I'm not bashing those that enjoy the film. I like parts of the movie too. I just find this particular part of the film to be topical enough to talk about.

 

[PyroChamber]

I saw the movie earlier today, and I really didn't think they were racist just kind of annoyed. And I have to admit there were some lines that I thought were funny.

And maybe it's just me but didn't seem like they had that much screentime as everyone says they had.

 

[chaseter]

I think some people need to learn their terms and distinguish between racism and stereotyping.

 

[He-Man]

I'm black. Grew up in the deep south and have experienced racism before. I didn't see anything racist about the twins at all. For the most part I Just thought they were a couple of goof ball teenagers. I have seen teenagers of all races act that way. I think they were supposed to be some kind of comic relief and some characters that the teenage crowd could relate to not to offend anyone. I thought some of it was funny myself. Do think they were over used somewhat though. Would have rather seen more time of some original characters.

 

[Nathan]

Racist or not, the main point is that they were annoying as hell and wasted too much screen time that could've been used to actually develope more interesting Autobots.

 

[KenK]

Racist or not, the main point is that they were annoying as hell and wasted too much screen time that could've been used to actually develope more interesting Autobots.

That, we can agree on. Although I did like when they took on Devastator. And they had one of my favorite exchanges of dialogue in the film :

"OW! That hurt!"
"It's supposed to hurt, it's an ass-whoopin'!"

I'm sorry, but I just thought was hilarious!

But yeah, as I've said on other boards, the main offense for me was the need to have the robots mimick human bodily functions! It's one thing to give them personalities related to humans, but Jesus H Christ! They don't need to be sh***ing, farting, barfing, and bleeding from the mouth if they get punched or kicked in the face! It didn't add anything to the film at all.

Also, just the absolute stupidity in the filmmakers having ZERO regard for where certain landmarks are located. I live just outside and work in Washington DC. Last time I checked, The Air and Space Museum was not an aircraft hangar in the middle of the desert!!! How stupid do you have to be to have a scene of your film taking place at a museum that I think most of us know full when is located in a major metropolitan city, then transition from that building (that looks NOTHING like the interior of the real place) to a f***king desert!

 

[Metal Spidey]

I know people that havent seen Tropic Thunder and refuse to see it because they heard someone was in blackface.

I'd just like to say that I am also black and I found nothing wrong with the blackface that I saw in Tropic Thunder (the small parts I saw). I do however hate the charcoal black skin and red lipped blackface, that is creepy and not funny at all. But if it's just a guy in brown makeup, it's not bad unless he's acting ignorant.

No they are not racist. I'm black as well and I'm frankly tired of all this "you're raaaaaaacist" nonsense always directed towards the portrayal's of any perceived black characters. The Twins are hilarious and loveable. If you can be offended by their 'street talk' and accents, get out of the theatre and never come back.

I'm not buying that you're black. Next time just state your opinion and move along.

It's always white people claiming everything is offensive.............I'm not saying white people need to get over their white guilt, but seriously, shut-up about it

This is true. A white news reporter or blogger could notice a subtile racist thing in a movie or video game and all of the hateful comments are directed towards blacks. WTF is up with that?

I'm black. Grew up in the deep south and have experienced racism before. I didn't see anything racist about the twins at all. For the most part I Just thought they were a couple of goof ball teenagers. I have seen teenagers of all races act that way. I think they were supposed to be some kind of comic relief and some characters that the teenage crowd could relate to not to offend anyone. I thought some of it was funny myself. Do think they were over used somewhat though. Would have rather seen more time of some original characters.

I just have to ask. If an Autobot's personallity matches the language they learn. What if Optimus and the rest learned German from Hitler videos? Would they have turned out to be just as bad as Megatron?

 

[terry78]

I will only go with the "internet based persona" thing due to the fact that maybe in protoform form, they already have these personas, but when learning english they choose to maintain how they acted beforehand...I will assume these two were already kinda annoying on Cybertron as is, but the fact that they chose some of the more questionable aspects of human culture clenches it.

 

[Nivek]

You know what else is racist? Fat Albert! OMG!

 

[CelticPredator]

Hey hey hey!!1....

 

[SpiderByte]

I'm black. Grew up in the deep south and have experienced racism before. I didn't see anything racist about the twins at all. For the most part I Just thought they were a couple of goof ball teenagers. I have seen teenagers of all races act that way.

Exactly. In fact, I'd put the Twins at (in terms of personality) at about 16-18 years old.

 

[DorneyDave]

They didn't come off as racist to me at all, nor anyone else I've talked to. To me it seemed like they were meant to be young tweener Transformers who are just talking in a "cool" way, or whatever they thought was cool on Earth. Maybe they were watching too much MTV to learn Earth's languages.

Anyways, I got a kick out of them and everyone I went to see the movie with did to.

 

[chaseter]

If they were watching MTV, they would be drunk college kids, a hot lesbian, a macho straight to the bone ready to fight anybody tough guy, or a stoner pot head. That is what the casting department at MTV looks for.

 

[DorneyDave]

If they were watching MTV, they would be drunk college kids, a hot lesbian, a macho straight to the bone ready to fight anybody tough guy, or a stoner pot head. That is what the casting department at MTV looks for.

Good point, the Twins were cooler and much more entertaining than everyone who appears on an MTV show.

 

[The Guard]

If these characters weren't animated and instead played by real black actors, "then you might have to admit that it's racist," Robinson said. "But stick it into a robot's mouth, and it's just a robot, it's OK."

See, I don't even agree with that assumption.

If it was animated, unless it was animated in an offensive manner, it would be an animated silly black character. As long as said character isn't portrayed as a lesser being, what would the potential racist issue be even there?

Is portraying a part of culture suddenly just flat out racist, regardless of your intentions?

"OW! That hurt!"

"It's supposed to hurt, it's an ass-whoopin'!"

I'm sorry, but I just thought was hilarious!

That was pretty funny. It's funny mainly because of the delivery by the voice actors, though. They brought a sort of Two Stooges personality out of The Twins.

I will only go with the "internet based persona" thing due to the fact that maybe in protoform form, they already have these personas, but when learning english they choose to maintain how they acted beforehand...I will assume these two were already kinda annoying on Cybertron as is, but the fact that they chose some of the more questionable aspects of human culture clenches it.

That's pretty much the idea of how the Transformers speak and act like humans. On Cybertron, Prime was a leadership figure, so he sounds like one here. Jazz was...well, Jazz, and he appropriated mannerisms that fit his own existing personality. They appropriated personalities based on human culture.

I think some people need to learn their terms and distinguish between racism and stereotyping.

I think a lot of people do. It's humorous to watch people who don't know what racism is claim it exists here. But it's also sad.

 

[macdawson]

That, we can agree on. Although I did like when they took on Devastator. And they had one of my favorite exchanges of dialogue in the film :

"OW! That hurt!"
"It's supposed to hurt, it's an ass-whoopin'!"

I'm sorry, but I just thought was hilarious!

Yeah, thats a great line!! And all the stuff about "blending in" as a ninja in Egypt, when they stick out as all hell!!! Good stuff. Devastator attack was badass.
"You shot me in the face"
"My bad!!" LOL

But yeah, as I've said on other boards, the main offense for me was the need to have the robots mimick human bodily functions! It's one thing to give them personalities related to humans, but Jesus H Christ! They don't need to be sh***ing, farting, barfing, and bleeding from the mouth if they get punched or kicked in the face! It didn't add anything to the film at all.

I didn't mind it that much but i agree that all the farting and ESPECIALLY the humping (though if i was in Wheelie's place... i don't know...) were a bit too much. As for the "bleeding"... some scenes worked better than others but i was fine with it.

Also, just the absolute stupidity in the filmmakers having ZERO regard for where certain landmarks are located. I live just outside and work in Washington DC. Last time I checked, The Air and Space Museum was not an aircraft hangar in the middle of the desert!!! How stupid do you have to be to have a scene of your film taking place at a museum that I think most of us know full when is located in a major metropolitan city, then transition from that building (that looks NOTHING like the interior of the real place) to a f***king desert!

Being foreign i didn't know that. That is a big lapse in judgement. But i choose to consider this as an alternate reality where the Air and Space Museum has a bit of desert in the back!!! LOL.

 

[The Guard]

Exactly. It's a movie set in a fictional universe, not a documentary about the Smithsonian. Maybe in their universe there's a museum piece out behind the Smithsonian. Maybe the reverse engineered tech from Megatron led to advances in aeronautics beyond what's in our world, jets became obsolete faster...who knows. Regardless, it added to the scene, and to Jetfire's elements.

Who cares if it's real or not?

Is Jetfire himself in the real museum? Are people going to ***** about that, too? While we're at it, let's ***** that that scene in Shanghai doesn't reflect every bit of the real world, that some of it is a set, set dressings, etc.

 

[spidergrant]

really i hated the twins not because of their stereotypes but just because the characters were too stupid and childish, I really think that ironhide and sideswipe should have been with sam instead, I mean come on why would they give these 2 guys more lines than optimus prime when the arcee twins get one line and sideswipe gets like 2 maybe. When I went to the theater and just saw the preview with devastator sucking up mudflap, I knew right away that I was going to hate that guy, like is there some shortage on fan favorite autobots that micheal bay could have put in the movie instead of those 2 ******s, like lets think of some cooler guys that he could have put in, lets see prowl, mirage, ultra magnus, blurr, even hotrod are better guys that I would have rather seen in the movie

 

[terry78]

Bumblebee, who is supposed to be the young one, acts more mature than them, which is saying something. When I first heard a few years back he was gonna be in the movie, I figured he'd be somewhat like the twins, only more of a suburban kid type and not as annoying.

 

[SuperAl]

they were dumb characters but they werent racist, they were just put in the movie to be funny. People are so sensitive these days, im sure if they acting like rednecks there wouldnt have been a single outcry of racism

 

[Figs]

they were dumb characters but they werent racist, they were just put in the movie to be funny. People are so sensitive these days, im sure if they acting like rednecks there wouldnt have been a single outcry of racism

Nope, they would have just been called annoying if they were acting like rednecks. I hate and pity this society sometimes.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

I like the part when Bumblebee grabbed the twins and smashed them together. That was classic Bee. It made me love Bee all the more :heart: haha. Not that I hated the twins, they were just okay but I wish some of the other autobots had been with Sam's convoy.

Bumblebee rules! :heart:

 

[Jake Cassidy]

I like the part when Bumblebee grabbed the twins and smashed them together. That was classic Bee. It made me love Bee all the more :heart: haha. Not that I hated the twins, they were just okay but I wish some of the other autobots had been with Sam's convoy.

Bumblebee rules! :heart:

Sideswipe and Arcee should've been there instead. t: