The Van Lente Avengers thread

[TheCorpulent1]

It must be a sad and hollow life you lead to not be interested in the classic Avengers at all.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Well... I liked the Proctor time period, but that wasn't very classicy feeling either, was it?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I loved that period. Not a particularly classic roster, but it was a pretty cool story.

Did you get into it because of Blood Ties?

 

[Iron Man]

No Wasp? And I would've preferred Scott Lang to the female Yellowjacket...not sure I've read anything with her in it before.

 

[runawayboulder]

I just want Vision I and Scarlet Witch to come back. They're such interesting characters even if they're married/separated/whatever. Problem is, I think they both have to come back at the same time/story and SW is rumored to be coming back at the end of The Children's Crusade.

Van Lente saying he was a fan of Roger Stern's run made me very happy since it was a run that got me started on Avengers.

 

[Dread]

Van Lente is writing WHITE LANTEN CORPs comic! Coming this November to Marvel!

That certainly is interesting. Apparently CHAOS WAR is big enough to have a spin off mini, while THANOS IMPERATIVE isn't. I think that's telling. Marvel wants to try to amp Van Lente, I think. The real question will be if this "dramatic event in the Marvel Universe" has any lasting ramifications in other, "important" books. Otherwise it will be like when Kang literally blew up Washington, D.C. as well as the U.N., and not a soul noticed or cared five issues later. You'd think the same universe that locked superheroes into the Negative Zone for Stamford would have imposed a mandatory death penalty on all super criminals after politicians and diplomats faced death and wrath for a change. But such is life.

It looks like these heroes will be plucked from the afterlife, so they're technically dead, but not zombies. Of course, as the trip into the underworld in INCREDIBLE HERCULES showed, death isn't very permanent.

I still wonder why Vision is there. I mean I KNOW why he is there, but he's a robot. He has no soul. Not the living, spiritual soul that a living creature possesses. I mean Ultron built him from spare parts (and Jim Hammond). Robots can always be perpetually rebuilt. Frankly I was amazed no one tried to extract "Victor Shade" out of "Jonas" and just rebuild him a new body. I mean, all that happened was he was torn in half. Iron Lad DL'd Vision's AI into his armor and that's how Jonas/Vision Jr. was born. I mean Red Tornado over in DC is blown up every 5 panels, and he's always rebuilt.

I understand the justification for the characters he chose. Getting in two girls in there is better than giving the world a third Ant-Man. In fact the only one who bores me is Mar-Vell, because he's boring. But it should be fun.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, I, for one, am glad that they're treating the Vision as a living being more than some soulless automaton. I've always thought he had a soul.

No Wasp? And I would've preferred Scott Lang to the female Yellowjacket...not sure I've read anything with her in it before.

I like her mostly because of her time with the Guardians of the Galaxy. But I would've preferred Scott, too.

 

[Dread]

If Van Lente considered it "too soon" for Sentry, then I imagine Wasp was dismissed for similar reasons.

Vision has a soul because he cried once?

I mean he's a good guy and all, but I still am iffy about the concept of Vision literally having a soul that can travel to the underworld as if he were a person or a rabbit when despite it all he's still an android whose spare parts are in one of the Avengers' storage units somewhere. Much as I can't buy that an android has blood (especially an android built in the 1930's), yet that was the entire origin of Spitfire (she somehow got a synthetic blood transfusion from Jim Hammond). If Vision has a soul, than what other robots have one? Would Jocasta? Would Ultron? Would Rosie from THE JETSONS? Does any robot that has a human shape get some soul that can go to Heaven or Hell? I mean if Vision had some adventure and some god figure decided, "for your valor I'll make you a real boy" and so forth, that I could buy. But to the best of my memory, Vision never got that. Even Pinnochio was just some magically possessed wooden puppet until he's made flesh at the end. I remember when INCREDIBLE HERCULES had the underworld arc and Vision was shown on the covers, this debate started, although he wasn't ever in the interior pages. This time he will be, and my opinion returned.

Although to be honest, considering that Vision, as an Avenger, has aided the Norse and Greek gods quite a few times, a "I'll make him a real boy" retcon moment from this series for Vision wouldn't be something I would object to too much, so long as Van Lente wrote it well. I just demand some sort of idea of what counts as living and what doesn't in terms of going to the underworld. I mean if any robot goes to the underworld, than a toaster could go there.

Frankly, I like that Van Lente is playing with a few obscure characters, and Rita is probably more obscure than Lang. Plus, well, it wouldn't remove Cassie Lang's only dramatic element if she survived, and allows Deathcry to NOT be the lone woman on the team.

As I said before, Mar-Vell is really the only one I'm not wild about. He's boring, and while the others may have died due to less than glorious stuff, Mar-Vell had that bittersweet after school special moment about cancer. The only notable thing he did was die. He's usually bored me, but then again, he's been dead longer than I've been alive. And I'm 28.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The Vision and the original Torch are both synthezoids, not actual robots. They're supposed to be perfect replicas of the human body made with synthetic materials. So technically the Vision's body still functions in mostly the same way as a human's--i.e. he has blood pumping through veins and working organs and such--but the materials used to create him are all synthetic.

That said, I'd really rather not see him become an actual human being. That just seems like a totally unnecessary story to tell with him. He's always been acutely human in spite of his synthetic origins.

 

[Dread]

I always bought the "synthezoid" thing as an excuse for why they were drawn like normal humans and could do things like emote or cry or feel pain or whatnot. While comics ask us to swallow a lot of things about mutation and so on, I could never buy that someone could create an entire person, just out of something other than carbon based or whatever, from spare parts in the garage somewhere, especially in the 1930's. It's almost as silly as mongoose blood giving you super powers (the Whizzer). But, even if I buy that someone, including Ultron who is supposed to hate all organics, would spend so much time wanting to duplicate a human body with synthetic means despite how inefficient that is (if not, why can machines and far simpler robots make many jobs obsolete?) that isn't the same as having a soul that can go to the underworld.

If a synthetic robot can have a soul despite nothing mystical or natural or whatever involved, that sort of diminishes what a soul is in Marvel. That means a blow up doll has a soul. Or those odd $7000 synthetic sex-bots have souls. http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/02/01/sex.robot/index.html

I'm not saying Vision doesn't deserve it. I just want some sort of reasoning for it in the spiritual sense. "The council of god heads unanimously decided that Vision was worthy of a soul" and so on, that's all I need. Otherwise, we could name a mini series ALL ROBOTS GO TO HEAVEN.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm just gonna stop talking now 'cause you're in that weird mode where you're just putting words together in ridiculous configurations again.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I loved that period. Not a particularly classic roster, but it was a pretty cool story.

Did you get into it because of Blood Ties?

Blood Ties was my first encounter with the Avengers of that time period (or Avengers period really) but I randomly bought 375, the final issue of that run, and I loved it. Didn't know anything about the characters or what was going on but it really impressed me. I then made my way backwards and read it all in context and was blown away. I tried to go beyond 375 but I was very bored very quickly. I did, however, enjoy the Ultraverse stuff with Black Knight, so maybe the character was a big part of it.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

"The Crossing" came after #375, which I've heard is one of the worst Avengers stories ever. I didn't read it. Then came Heroes Reborn, which I also skipped, and then Busiek and Perez's fantastic relaunch.

I actually haven't read any of the Ultraverse stuff with the Black Knight. I wasn't into the Ultraverse back then and I didn't really get into the Harras era of Avengers until after Dane had already come back to the Marvel universe.

 

[Dread]

Man, where were all these fans of the leather jacket era of AVENGERS back when it was happening, eh?

THE CROSSING was pretty bad. It makes Bendis' worst look like brilliance. It makes the Skrull Queen revelation legitimately look planned. It is the story that put the "con" in "retcon".

I'm just gonna stop talking now 'cause you're in that weird mode where you're just putting words together in ridiculous configurations again.

I just like knowing how robots or synthezoids or blow up heroes get into the underworld when gods are usually very clear on what is alive and what isn't and what has a soul and what doesn't. Did ANY soul effecting magic ever effect Vision? Or was he usually immune?

I mean overall it'll kick ass and it won't ruin anything for me. I just like having an explanation. I mean, robots are usually immortal anyway, so long as you can rebuild them, either by downloading their personality into a new body or somehow rebuilding them from whatever scraps are left.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Man, where were all these fans of the leather jacket era of AVENGERS back when it was happening, eh?

I was a fan of leather jackets be they Avengers or X-Men. I'd like to see them come back

 

[Tron Bonne]

I was a fan of leather jackets be they Avengers or X-Men. I'd like to see them come back

All hope abandon, ye who enter in!

 

[JewishHobbit]

And I shall enter in a leather jacket!

 

[Dread]

I wonder if this mini will answer once and for all if Hercules and Deathcry ever...got intimate during their space adventures in the 90's. They hung out together for a bit during that era, and while Hercules returned to earth, Deathcry really didn't. The concept of Herc having a half-Shi'ar son somewhere is the sort of thing that I imagine Van Lente or Greg Pak would have oodles of fun with. Especially if he was purple like she is. Being purple doesn't stop Oliver from INVINCIBLE.

 

[runawayboulder]

I liked the Avengers leather jackets but not on missions. Black Widow, Crystal, Sersi and Black Knight made it a part of their gear. Although it did kinda work for Dane.....

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Man, where were all these fans of the leather jacket era of AVENGERS back when it was happening, eh?

THE CROSSING was pretty bad. It makes Bendis' worst look like brilliance. It makes the Skrull Queen revelation legitimately look planned. It is the story that put the "con" in "retcon".



I just like knowing how robots or synthezoids or blow up heroes get into the underworld when gods are usually very clear on what is alive and what isn't and what has a soul and what doesn't. Did ANY soul effecting magic ever effect Vision? Or was he usually immune?

I mean overall it'll kick ass and it won't ruin anything for me. I just like having an explanation. I mean, robots are usually immortal anyway, so long as you can rebuild them, either by downloading their personality into a new body or somehow rebuilding them from whatever scraps are left.

Whether you want to call it a soul or something else, there is some uniquely "Vision" essence out there. We know this because even after he was rebuilt and reprogrammed with an entirely new personality based on Alex Lipton, his old personality crept back in and eventually reasserted itself completely. If that doesn't constitute some kind of soul overcoming what was effectively an entirely new personality that was basically brainwashed into him, I don't know what does. And who's to say what actually creates life or souls or whatever? The Vision isn't just a product of Ultron. He's a product of his own experiences and he's had a life and experienced emotions and everything. A human being is just a blob of organic junk to begin with; we grow into people over time. The Vison's functionally the same in every way as a full-fledged human being and has experienced a full, rich life, so that constitutes enough of an identity for me to call him a fully living, sentient being with his own soul. I don't honestly know how you could read about the Vision's life and see him in action and conclude otherwise.

 

[Dread]

Whether you want to call it a soul or something else, there is some uniquely "Vision" essence out there. We know this because even after he was rebuilt and reprogrammed with an entirely new personality based on Alex Lipton, his old personality crept back in and eventually reasserted itself completely. If that doesn't constitute some kind of soul overcoming what was effectively an entirely new personality that was basically brainwashed into him, I don't know what does. And who's to say what actually creates life or souls or whatever? The Vision isn't just a product of Ultron. He's a product of his own experiences and he's had a life and experienced emotions and everything. A human being is just a blob of organic junk to begin with; we grow into people over time. The Vison's functionally the same in every way as a full-fledged human being and has experienced a full, rich life, so that constitutes enough of an identity for me to call him a fully living, sentient being with his own soul. I don't honestly know how you could read about the Vision's life and see him in action and conclude otherwise.

Obviously us "blobs of organic junk" have preference to the whole soul thing in Marvel, otherwise any babies or very young children who didn't live a full life would basically be soulless, and I doubt that's the case.

If I wanted to No-Prize the whole personality thing, I could claim that original programming is hard to permanently purge from a system no matter how well you think you do it. I mean, look how many times Ultron keeps returning? Vision's cool, I just wouldn't mind some scene or explanation somewhere in the issue, and it wouldn't have to be long, that states that at whatever point to the gods Vision was no longer a toaster oven with a cape and could enter an underworld with a soul like anything else that's alive. I mean, did being originally programmed with Wonder Man's brain patterns somehow give him a sliver of Simon's soul? Is the soul in the brain patterns? Would Simon (whose come back from the dead a few times) be missing some aspect of his soul to Vision? Or is life like a video game and robots have to clear a set number of arcane challenges before they "grow" a soul in the classical sense? I mean naturally Vision would have more than passed that challenge, but knowing that one exists in the mythological sense could be cool.

After all, the idea of whether machines "dream" at a certain point is a topic of debate in real life. I don't think it's too unreasonable to at least want to see it addressed and settled why Vision goes to the underworld when other robots don't. If played right it could actually be a very cool or heartening little scene, of the sort Van Lente does well. I mean naturally the way you put it, Vision could just show up somewhere in the underworld and it's fine, but I think the story would be stronger if we got like a brief one panel flashback or a line or two that mentions it. I mean it would have been an experience that Vision wouldn't have expected to have, and a level of acceptance he may not have been aware he'd achieve.

Maybe I just have a fetish for well executed exposition.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, to each his own. I don't need anything explaining that the Vision is a sentient being with some kind of equivalent to a soul when his entire history in the comics pretty clearly points that out.

 

[Dread]

Eh, a mystical underworld chalkboard that sort of has a reservation list for robots who make it in might be a cute way to do it.

It might be funny if the reasoning is, "Actually, all sentient robots come here, so long as they remain deactivated long enough. You'd see a lot more of 'em here if they didn't keep getting rebuilt."

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Same could be said of humans. Death is just as much a revolving door for them in comics.

 

[Dread]

For humans or "living" characters in comics, getting around Death usually means a retcon denying it ever happened ("Steve wasn't shot, he was hit with time bullets", or "That glider didn't kill me, I was healing in Europe"), or coming up with a contrivance like alien machines or time travel or magic or whatever. For robots it usually involved some duct tape and jumper cables to rebuild them. It's slightly more plausible to rebuild a robot endlessly than a living person. I mean Vision has literally been pulled apart piece by piece and reassembled just fine. You can't really do that with a person as easily. Unless you're Faiza.