The Wrestling Thread is not your decision you stupid Americans - - - Part 197

[zeroapoc]

Well then if the show sucks, I expect to see you guys on here happy and not complaining. Because WWE will have given you what you wanted after all.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I can see Samoa Joe cutting this promo on Reigns:

"I always take pride in my Samoan Heritage and how we've dominated this industry whether try were in my family or not but when I see you, All I see is a disgrace to any legendary Samoan wrestler in history: Afa, Sika, Peter Maivia, Jimmy Superfly Snuka and even your cousin The Rock. You are a part of that same legendary bloodline but you take it for granted and for that I'm gonna beat your ass relentlessly."

And then Roman's cousins the Usos get their asses handed to them by him.

 

[sweetre15]

Man, I've been on a DBZ kick lately and I noticed something similar with DBZ and WWE.

Dragonball Z had built up Gohan to be Goku's successor and "put him over" by having him beat Cell when all hope was lost but then get demoted and weakened for the rest of the show where even when he unlocked his full power, it was just to "job" to Majin Buu to make Goku look strong on his triumphant return and hilariously enough the same thing is happening with Daniel Bryan where his big "Cell Games" moment was WM30 and he's getting demoted for Roman Reigns to be the triumphant hero.

Basically if WWE was DBZ, then we'd be in the Majin Buu saga with a guy that's intended to be more like Broly.

The parallels are beyond amusing for a Dragonball fan like myself but atleast Gohan got to beat Broly, Bojack and Garlic Jr as well as Cell.

Ultimately the difference is Too many fans would have been pissed if Goku wouldn't have stayed the main hero, where as with Reigns or Cena, there's a contingency of people that want Bryan to be the successor.

 

[MMMMM...Pancakes]

Interesting comparison there, Sweetre. I see the parallels.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Well then if the show sucks, I expect to see you guys on here happy and not complaining. Because WWE will have given you what you wanted after all.

I want the show to give me the same feeling I used to have about WrestleMania prior to 2004. I used to sit down on WM Sunday with assurance that I would see a great card top-to-bottom. Now if there are 2 good matches, we're lucky. On paper, this current card is horrible. I'm not sure it can be saved, but I'd like to be wrong.

Also, I certainly hope the news about Samoa Joe is true. WWE needs big stars in the worst way, and even a slightly over-the-hill Joe would be a fresh face on the main event roster.

 

[zeroapoc]

Man, I've been on a DBZ kick lately and I noticed something similar with DBZ and WWE.

Dragonball Z had built up Gohan to be Goku's successor and "put him over" by having him beat Cell when all hope was lost but then get demoted and weakened for the rest of the show where even when he unlocked his full power, it was just to "job" to Majin Buu to make Goku look strong on his triumphant return and hilariously enough the same thing is happening with Daniel Bryan where his big "Cell Games" moment was WM30 and he's getting demoted for Roman Reigns to be the triumphant hero.

Basically if WWE was DBZ, then we'd be in the Majin Buu saga with a guy that's intended to be more like Broly.

The parallels are beyond amusing for a Dragonball fan like myself but atleast Gohan got to beat Broly, Bojack and Garlic Jr as well as Cell.

Ultimately the difference is Too many fans would have been pissed if Goku wouldn't have stayed the main hero, where as with Reigns or Cena, there's a contingency of people that want Bryan to be the successor.

Bryan/Reigns fusion. Problem solved.

Breigns

 

[sweetre15]

Bryan/Reigns fusion. Problem solved.

Breigns

Via the Earrings or Fusion Dance? Lol

 

[WildChild]

.....Because I think this set of gifs should be on every page.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Well then if the show sucks, I expect to see you guys on here happy and not complaining. Because WWE will have given you what you wanted after all.

You make it sound like I'll be watching it, I wont be. I'll simply look at the reports and enjoy the fact they booed Reigns out of the building, just like I enjoyed reading the Raw report of the CM Punk chants during his promo on Raw and all the crap he got from the crowd during his match with Rollins.

 

[NDX]

Just making a good day better.

 

[Lobo]

.....Because I think this set of gifs should be on every page.

It really does.

 

[Slushy]

The Booker T special was good. Just needed to be an hour longer.

 

[zeroapoc]

edit

 

[H.U.S.T.L.E.]

Well some of the sentiments in this thread are just plain depressing.

I would never hope for any wrestling show to be terrible, or for a guy to be unprofessional and deliberately make his dance partner look bad (which in return, makes both guys look like crap and is a huge slap in the face to paying customers).

I understand the sentiment that WWE is the pinnacle of the wrestling profession, since it reaches the widest audience. And I get being frustrated that they aren't utilizing talent to maximize potential fan interest and drawing power. But I also can't understand the reasoning that if WWE's product is lackluster, that there's nothing else out there that can satisfy your wrestling needs.

WWE & WCW were the gateway for me as a kid. I didn't know any better and that's what was on TV, so that's what I watched. But as my fandom continued and I started to understand that there were other things out there, there were entirely new doors to open. TNA & ROH came along at a time where alternatives were sorely needed. Neither has proven to be real competition with WWE, but I think that's ok in the grand scheme of things.

We're at another point in time during the wrestling business where WWE isn't providing a lot of fans with what they want... I guess I just find it disheartening that WWE seems to be killing off fandom instead of placing it elsewhere. There's lots of alternatives I personally find enjoyable, and I know my tastes aren't that different than many here. It's just sad to see the sentiment that people need a break from wrestling altogether because WWE sucks right now. I guess that's all I'm really trying to say.

 

[Superark]

I hope Mania bombs, Bryan in the IC title cluster****? while a guy who isn't even over, can barely cut a promo and has had 2 PPV matches gets the main event? It deserves to tank for such utter arrogance pissing all over the fanbase.

With any luck Brock shows up, phones it in and the crowd **** on it all so badly that the arena turns brown.

I'm with you. The only downside is I would hate that Sting's first Mania match was on a PPV that underperformed. He deserves to be on the best card possible.

Outside of the HHH/Sting match, I think this whole Mania build and card is piss poor. Even The H and Sting match has taken a negative turn for me as I hate that they are portraying it as HHH is the face of the WWE and Attitude Era. I have no problem with HHH being his opponent, but it is completely the wrong build.

Sting trying to right the wrongs of the Authority is all you need to do. Make him out to be the hero and Vigilante you say he is. Don't make it into a WCW vs. WWE thing.

That build belongs to the Undertaker vs. Sting. They are the franchises of their respective companies.

 

[OctaviusINC]

I don't know if you guys like to read...but Meltzer wrote this on the wrestling reddit. Thought it was a sad, interesting, and true insight and summary of the push and now depush of Daniel Bryan and how history repeats itself.

The Yes Movement is Dead.

"With Roman Reigns cleanly pinning Daniel Bryan in what was a hell of a main event on Fast Lane, it’s very clear that Vince McMahon is still planning on the scenario he’s probably had for probably one year, with Reigns beating Brock Lesnar at WrestleMania.

Fan reaction at the Royal Rumble, and since the Royal Rumble, largely indicated that scenario was backfiring. Forgetting about Bryan, and forgetting about skill level or being ready or even talking ability, Reigns is nowhere near as over and doesn’t feel like he has anywhere near the momentum of the babyface who is going to chase and win the title on the biggest show of the year.

What’s notable is that 21 years ago, a younger Vince McMahon was in the same position, choosing between his own hand-picked next star of the company, tall bodybuilder Lex Luger, or one of the best in-ring performers of that time, Bret Hart. Historically, Luger was far closer to what McMahon liked his champions to look like. But Hart was more popular among the fans. Faced with the crowd reaction in the laboratory setting of a big show, the fans liked Hart more than Luger when they squared off. The WrestleMania original plan, Luger beating Yokozuna to win the title, was changed to Hart. Luger’s momentum was lost, and a little over two years later, working as part of a mid-card tag team he walked out on the company. Hart became the company’s biggest star, before he was gone more than three years later.

This time, McMahon went with the original plan. It was acknowledged that Reigns wasn’t over like he should have been. So they went to work. They brought in his cousin, Dwayne Johnson, to make his Royal Rumble win even bigger. But the miscalculation of putting Bryan in the Rumble made the whole scenario backfire, and even the endorsement of Johnson didn’t matter.

The next idea was to change the original plan for Fast Lane and put Reigns vs. Bryan. There were a lot of ways to go, but the key is that they’d probably have a great match. In the final scripting, it was Reigns winning clean, and Bryan, the next day, out there with the idea he’s the representative of his fan base, telling them to cheer Reigns onto victory because he was the better man and we were all wrong and he deserves our respect. Not only that, they were put together in a tag team the next day and Reigns ever so graciously allowed Bryan to get the win, even though he did the work to set up the pin.

After the Rumble, there was a vocal protest. Did it mean anything business-wise? Well, WWE did change some plans, but in the end went right back to the original one. If a lot of people would have canceled the WWE Network, there would have been no choice but to react. Instead, far more people signed up in the two days after the show than canceled. It was a lot of noise and little action.

At Fast Lane, they were doing the same thing, just more directly. They actually put the two of them head-to-head, and the company clearly picked its favorite above the crowd favorite. This time, there was nowhere near the same reaction. People yelling about canceling and not doing so wasn’t going to work. And it was over. The audience couldn’t control the direction.

Really, I’d rather somebody wrote a book from start-to-finish rather than readers who have no real understanding of book writing trying to force changes so the little sidekick who is supposed to be a bit player gets the girl and not the handsome lead who the whole book was built around.

I learned long ago that a good promoter listens to the fans, and a great promoter completely manipulates the fans. But the idea is that both make the fans want not what they tell the promoter they want, but what the promoter wants in the first place, because he has a better grasp than they do about business.

This goes back to Paul Boesch in the 1980s. Boesch every week had his lab experiment, for most of his promoting career, 52 weeks, every Friday, he would have a show at the Sam Houston Coliseum. It takes a lot of ideas and creativity to run 52 times a year in the same building. You’re going to have some hits and some misses, and the idea is to either fool yourself with excuses on the misses, or learn from them. He told me that in the end, all the excuses are just that. If a show doesn’t draw, it’s his fault, for presenting a main event that fans didn’t want to buy tickets to see. Vince McMahon would tell the same stories, except he would use Bobo Brazil, as his conduit, with the story of the bad house, and the wrestlers, and promoters would talk about the weather or the economy or whatever competition was in town, and Bobo would calmly say that the problem is that not enough people wanted to see the main event.

Wrestling is a totally different business today. Vince McMahon still tells the Bobo Brazil story. And he doesn’t buy fake excuses. When a show does bad, that means the creative missed. He doesn’t want to hear about county fairs, movie opens, welfare checks and the day of the month, warm weather or cold weather. History has shown that NFL football, NBA playoffs and maybe the World Series or a hot Yankees-Red Sox game can hurt ratings.

But one of Boesch’s stories was about listening to the fans. In those days, a large percentage of the audience that attended the show, would buy the souvenir program. So in the 1960s, what better way is there to do direct marketing to your customer base but to put in the program a question, asking fans what match do you want to see. His job was selling tickets to those same customers. Instead of guessing what they want, just ask them directly. So he did it, and booked the match.

He never told me the names, but did say the fans wanted a match between the two most popular wrestlers in Texas at the time. It was a match they’d never see because the promoters always did babyface vs. heel. So maybe they were wrong. He booked the match. The gate sucked. And the lesson was learned. If you deliver exactly what the fans ask for, you probably won’t do very well. It’s better to create a scenario, and convince them to buy what you think most of them will pay to see.

Over the years, Vince McMahon has handpicked a number of champions with the idea they’d be the face of the company. Hulk Hogan was a big success. Ultimate Warrior seemed like he had all the momentum in the world, but as soon as he got the title, it didn’t work. With hindsight we can point to the excuses, Hogan’s manipulation after the match, no viable contenders set up, or simply bad timing with the idea that any face who followed Hogan would probably fail by comparison. He went back to Hogan, although it was clear McMahon had already made the choice that with Hogan approaching 40, he had to make a new Hogan.

I don’t think McMahon at that point saw Bret Hart as more than a bridge, a temporary thing until the next big thing came along. The next pick was Lex Luger. That was blown based on timing. They creating a scenario where he had to win at a certain time, they waited too long, and the momentum was lost. And given his history elsewhere, he probably wouldn’t have been a success if they pulled the trigger at the right time. He was too much like Hogan, and Hogan was still in people’s minds.

The next pick was Kevin Nash. He was the biggest of all, talked well and was good looking. But business was terrible during that period and Nash was clearly not the answer as the focal point. Nash wasn’t at the level of Hart or Shawn Michaels, the other two top stars, inside the ring. That was a clear factor at the time, even though there were plenty of people better than most of McMahon’s other champions when they held the title. Warrior was outright terrible unless he had a great heel to carry him. Hogan had a patterned relatively short match that worked, more because Hogan had incredible charisma, which Nash didn’t have even though he was bigger than Hogan and had better hair.

 

[OctaviusINC]

Continued (sorry If I'm boring you guys)

Then Shawn Michaels, also not a success. Then Bret Hart, but McMahon got buyers remorse on his contract. Then came Steve Austin, who carried the company during its most successful period in history. Dwayne Johnson came up during the Austin era and carried things when Austin was injured. The Golden Period ended due to two factors. They made the huge mistake of turning Austin heel, and Johnson showed so much charisma in wrestling that Hollywood called, and he had far more acting range than Hogan and he was wrestling less-and-less.

That led to the modern era. The company fell greatly with HHH as its top star, but he became a family member. But the company remained profitable because this was the first period in history when they were truly the monopoly promotion. The first hand-picked successor was to be Brock Lesnar. Lesnar was the best athlete and toughest guy ever put into that position. But he wasn’t strong on promos. He was put together with Paul Heyman in a pairing that worked, but the two were broken up and Lesnar was turned face far too early, then turned back. The company also suffered from Johnson appearing less and less frequently and Austin retiring. Eventually the decision was made that Lesnar wasn’t the guy, and he quit the promotion shortly thereafter. Randy Orton came next. He had a long string as a main eventer, a very good wrestler with the right look. Orton had a five year run where he statistically did well above usual business when he was on top, but he did not have the charisma to be a real mover as the top guy. He still was always kept strong because he had the right look and skill set. Actually Dave Bautista surpassed Orton in the fans’ eyes, and as a business mover. Bautista was a huge success with his face turn in 2005. He was a big guy with a great physique and good look, and reasonably good in the ring, far from the best, but certainly when in with the best could be in a quality main event. While his feud with HHH was probably the most successful of the current era, he was quickly surpassed in popularity and momentum by John Cena.

Here’s the thing. In every single case, even with Luger and Nash, they had momentum and the fan base treated them like they were a major star on the rise before the big moment came, or in the case with Luger, never came. There was never the totally lukewarm reaction to a full-year title build that lost momentum months before. Many failed when put in the spotlight, but none came in with no momentum.

In almost every case historically, even the most stubborn promoter in this scenario would chalk it up to not always being right.

Why is this different? One year ago, McMahon made a move that nobody expected. He had Lesnar beat The Undertaker. Nothing in the company, not the title, somebody’s trademark hair or someone’s position had the value of the decades long streak. It was the institution. It would lead to the most shocking moment in modern wrestling history and it could only be done once. There may never be another moment at that level.

The idea from the start was that moment would be used to create the new top star of the company. Lesnar would beat Undertaker, demolish Bryan, and be the unstoppable heel force, and Reigns would succeed where even Cena couldn’t. It made all the sense in the world a year ago. Reigns was young, looked great, and The Shield were the hottest new act in years. Reigns had been presented as the killer and the tough one in the group. The idea was to use The Shield to get him over, and it worked better than expected. He was an instant headliner being put out on his own. But whether it was timing, the injury, Bryan, or people wanting more substance from the top guy, it didn’t work.

Why McMahon was so married to the idea may have been that by beating Undertaker, and having a guy who brought the fan base into a different dimension of stronger reality like Lesnar, it created a unique time to make the new face, figuring it was time make Cena the babyface legend and not the guy in the championship picture, essentially what Bruno was to Bob Backlund and what he wanted Hogan to be to Warrior and later Bret Hart but it never worked out.

Abandoning Reigns would have historically made the Undertaker loss almost for naught and there was no way to recreate that storyline. Even though Bryan was the hottest act at the time, at no point did he ever consider Bryan as the guy. He was too physically small and not good looking enough. And that was the problem. He got hung up on the factors and not the end result.

Even though Bryan’s chant made it appear he was more over than he was, and he wasn’t a business mover on the level of Cena, he was significantly ahead of Reigns with far less help in presentation. But even with that, the argument is Reigns was younger, and with his look, had more long-term potential. Based on traditional qualities, he did. But the appreciation of wrestling ability as a quality may be higher than ever now, and perhaps the most important modern qualities are wrestling, talking and connecting, and Bryan was far superior in all of them.

What could have been different? We’ll never know. He was the guy picked by the fans, but the company never saw it. Everyone knows the debate to death."
"What McMahon forgot is that every category, whether it’s wrestling ability, talking ability, likeability, looks, size, physique, height, perceived toughness, athletic ability and gimmick all go into how fans will react to different wrestlers. But they are all just categories.

There have been good looking guys who couldn’t draw women. Why? I don’t know or care, but they didn’t. There have been some guys who weren’t good looking who could. There were guys who looked physically like Greek Gods who did draw, and others who didn’t. Some short guys caught on. Some tall guys did. What is the best predictor of being over? The ability to get over. What is the best predictor of being able to draw on top? Being put on top with no shackles on your hands and wrists and ticket sales increase.

Bryan didn’t fit into the traditional categories of what draws. Small great wrestlers historically were guys who worked the second match. Except there was also Ray Stevens. Guys who looked like slobs usually made the business look bad to outsiders, and would be a disaster if put on top. Except there was Dusty Rhodes. Short acrobatic guys with minimal wrestling ability and zero psychology can’t draw a dime. Except Argentina Rocca carried Madison Square Garden’s business on his back for eight years. At an NWA meeting in the 70s, Terry Funk spoke about how the keys to the business were promos and if you couldn’t talk well, you weren’t going to be able to draw. Ed Farhat then spoke and said that there isn’t a person in this room who has drawn more money than I have (and there wasn’t), and I’ve never said a word on an interview.

But almost nobody has ever caught on at his level while being pushed at the level he was being pushed at. I don’t know if there is any promoter at any period of time who would have seen his reactions and not at least put him in a top spot as an experiment. Bill Watts once, during the heyday of the Rock & Roll Express, had his doubts about putting Ricky Morton in a Superdome main event with Ric Flair, but it appeared Morton was over like crazy. When he booked the match and gave it a full push, and it drew about 10,000 fans, considered a lukewarm house, better than some, less than Flair did with others, his conclusion was that fans bought Morton in a tag team situation with anyone, but not as a single going after the world title. But if it had drawn, he wouldn’t have come to that conclusion that he was too small to draw on top challenging for the big belt.

Don’t get me wrong. Many promoters would see Bryan’s weaknesses and think it wouldn’t work. Some would probably like him a lot and give it the benefit of the doubt if it was close. Others would look at it differently. But everyone would try. And they did try last year with Bryan, but in his coming back from an injury, every other top promoter would have pushed his comeback a lot harder and the former babyface champion who was super popular and successful a year earlier, and never lost, was not getting his legs cut off before he got a shot at the title. If it didn’t work, sure, but it would at least be given that shot.

But then again, what other company, besides the dying version of WCW, would have one of its stars as a key participant in the World Series parade, and never even mention it on their television show?

We’ll never know what Bryan’s true top potential was, and what the staying power of his popularity would have been. He’s going to have a good career. But he’ll never be the guy who carries the company. Unlike virtually everyone historically of his level of popularity, it won’t be because they tried and it failed. It will be because it was decided that the category predictors were more important than the overall result. And thus, he couldn’t be the guy, even though he was far more popular, could wrestle better and talk better and connected better than guys stronger who fared better on the list of category predictors.

But the key is, and the only constant in every era, is that all of those sub-categories and adding them up and getting a score is meaningless. There were great talkers who couldn’t draw on top. There were great ring technicians that couldn’t draw on top. There were models who couldn’t draw on top. There were small guys who couldn’t and there were great big guys with pretty faces who couldn’t. There were legitimate badasses that couldn’t.

In the end, the only thing that matters is charisma, and charisma is about crowd connection during the time and place. That’s it. Not necessarily noise. A prelim guy with a cool gimmick or the right story can get a gigantic pop. It’s the connection where you are somebody people see as being special, and can make them buy tickets, or garner more interest in your matches than all the other guys.

Bryan was the closest guy to having that one year ago, at least among the non-Cena members of the roster. He was the closest guy now, at least until Sunday, even with never being treated like it. In his case, the connection was people just liked him a lot, liked to chant with him, and it was just the right thing at the right time. Even star athletes liked having connections to him. In the end, he was never able to overcome the physical negatives to the audience of one. And I can’t think of one example historically of someone the public embraced to that level who got treated in creative at that level. Orton never had anything close to this, never sold merchandise at his level, and he was given a decade plus of protection at a level Bryan could never dream, and championship reign after championship reign. He got his WrestleMania win and had his moment and thus, it was time for someone else. Imagine if that mentality had been used for Cena or Orton a decade ago. Take Cena out of the mix and book him like a joke who almost always failed and the company would be in far worse shape than it is now. And you could easily, if you wanted, point to all kinds of flaws with Cena, but he could be on the Muscle & Fitness cover and was a great brand ambassador to the outside world, a role nobody else would have been as good at. But Bryan had that quality of likeability and seeming genuine that can’t be taught. But because of the inability to get past the physical package, something the audience had gotten past and not considered a negative years ago, his strengths, including the ability to have a match at the level that only the best historically could hit on a consistent basis, regardless of his dance partner, was squandered.

It was clear on Raw that his fan base was finally beaten after a long fight. He’s Chris Benoit after Randy Orton beat him, the guy everyone likes and respects, that everyone will want to work programs with, and whose job will be to put over the next generation of MVPs, Drew McIntyre’s, Alberto Del Rio’s and Roman Reigns, except preferably with a happy ending.

As for Reigns, what we know is that the endorsements tricks with Dwayne Johnson and Bryan won’t save the experiment. We learned that every time Johnson tried to put over Cena verbally and people turned on him. But at least with Cena, his segments drew the highest numbers most of the time, his merchandise blew away the field, they’d raise tickets prices for his shows and he’d still constantly outsell everyone else. The mixed reactions were great evidence for people who understood little about business, since Cena, while not Austin, Hogan or Sammartino, still laid golden eggs better than all but a few wrestlers in company history.

The difference with Cena is people passionately loved and hated him. Reigns is more than people just don’t care all that much either way about him. Yeah, they really hated him as the anti-Bryan. But now that he’s not that, they don’t like him all that much, and they don’t hate him all that much. He’s a cold guy going against a heel that people want to like in Lesnar. In his favor, if Lesnar is leaving, fans still may get behind him as the guy trying to save their kingdom from the traitor who sold out. If Lesnar is staying, Levi’s Stadium may provide a very disappointing backdrop as compared to New Orleans on coronation night.

But the economics are so different now that it really doesn’t matter all that much what moves are made. No idea or new personality from the new era of mid-carders promotion is drawing people from out of the usual group of viewers in.

But the biggest story on Fast Lane was the end of the Bryan story as the guy the fans willed to be the top guy and face of the company. It was a fight for a long time fans thought they could win, and they clearly lost, and more importantly, based on post-Fast Lane, they weren’t even that mad anymore. It was just acceptance.

Don’t get me wrong. He is going to be a star within the television show for maybe as long as his body holds up, and at minimum for several more years. He’s a great wrestler and he’ll be counted on to be part of big matches. He’ll get over the heels they are promoting to whomever their real headliner is. He’ll have great technical matches when called on to face talented wrestlers. He’ll give good promos. People will like him. They’ll still chant “Yes” all the time, not with the fervor they once did, but it’ll always be the new “Hiyo.” When he’s 50, he can still be used for easy heat for a new heel, he can come out, get his nostalgia chant, and lose just like Jim Duggan did. Well, except probably a whole lot more effectively. "

tl;dr.

The Yes Movement is over. It never had a chance. Vince McMahon will always do what he thinks is best.

Make Roman look strong.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Well some of the sentiments in this thread are just plain depressing.

I would never hope for any wrestling show to be terrible, or for a guy to be unprofessional and deliberately make his dance partner look bad (which in return, makes both guys look like crap and is a huge slap in the face to paying customers).

I understand the sentiment that WWE is the pinnacle of the wrestling profession, since it reaches the widest audience. And I get being frustrated that they aren't utilizing talent to maximize potential fan interest and drawing power. But I also can't understand the reasoning that if WWE's product is lackluster, that there's nothing else out there that can satisfy your wrestling needs.

WWE & WCW were the gateway for me as a kid. I didn't know any better and that's what was on TV, so that's what I watched. But as my fandom continued and I started to understand that there were other things out there, there were entirely new doors to open. TNA & ROH came along at a time where alternatives were sorely needed. Neither has proven to be real competition with WWE, but I think that's ok in the grand scheme of things.

We're at another point in time during the wrestling business where WWE isn't providing a lot of fans with what they want... I guess I just find it disheartening that WWE seems to be killing off fandom instead of placing it elsewhere. There's lots of alternatives I personally find enjoyable, and I know my tastes aren't that different than many here. It's just sad to see the sentiment that people need a break from wrestling altogether because WWE sucks right now. I guess that's all I'm really trying to say.

I tried the alternate thing 10 years ago when the Cena regime started, I watched TNA, ROH and NOAH as regular as possible. The latter are hard to get into and harder to find, neither has much in the way of continuity and you wait ages between events, it's hard to get any rhythm, and I am not keen on the OTT nature of the wrestling. TNA is as bad as WWE just with cheaper production values and someone even more clueless in charge.

So yes, I hope WWE and Reigns fail spectacularly, I feel semi bad for Reigns but he is the living personification of everything wrong with WWE right now, and as their avatar I hope he falls on his face hard.

Any company that spits in it's fans faces and then takes the one guy genuinely supported by the majority and makes him into a complete nothing to show their "dominance," deserves to fail. I can barely watch NXT as the stench of McMahon and his odious, bloated cancer riddled WWE juggernaut is looming over it.

I'm with you. The only downside is I would hate that Sting's first Mania match was on a PPV that underperformed. He deserves to be on the best card possible.

Outside of the HHH/Sting match, I think this whole Mania build and card is piss poor. Even The H and Sting match has taken a negative turn for me as I hate that they are portraying it as HHH is the face of the WWE and Attitude Era. I have no problem with HHH being his opponent, but it is completely the wrong build.

Sting trying to right the wrongs of the Authority is all you need to do. Make him out to be the hero and Vigilante you say he is. Don't make it into a WCW vs. WWE thing.

That build belongs to the Undertaker vs. Sting. They are the franchises of their respective companies.

I had to address the bolded part first, Triple H booked as the face of the attitude era? If being the 4th biggest star of the era makes you the face then okidoki............

I can understand your dilemma my friend as I know you are by far the biggest Sting fan here, but in truth this match was always a dud because it's merely a way for Sting to get a Mania win under his belt before he faces Taker next year, same way they are wasting a Mania spot on this Bray vs Taker garbage so Taker can get back on the winning track before facing Sting. Everything right now is being booked for the wrong reasons and it's why the show stinks so much.

 

[Wheels]

Here's the thing, WWE has the best roster in America, so while Lucha Underground and ROH put on good shows they still aren't as important to me as WWE. If any combination of Bryan, Ambrose, Rollins Ziggler, Wyatt, Harper, Cesaro, Rusev, Zayn, Breeze, Itami, or Neville jumped ship it'd be a different story.

 

[H.U.S.T.L.E.]

I tried the alternate thing 10 years ago when the Cena regime started, I watched TNA, ROH and NOAH as regular as possible. The latter are hard to get into and harder to find, neither has much in the way of continuity and you wait ages between events, it's hard to get any rhythm, and I am not keen on the OTT nature of the wrestling. TNA is as bad as WWE just with cheaper production values and someone even more clueless in charge.

So yes, I hope WWE and Reigns fail spectacularly, I feel semi bad for Reigns but he is the living personification of everything wrong with WWE right now, and as their avatar I hope he falls on his face hard.

Any company that spits in it's fans faces and then takes the one guy genuinely supported by the majority and makes him into a complete nothing to show their "dominance," deserves to fail. I can barely watch NXT as the stench of McMahon and his odious, bloated cancer riddled WWE juggernaut is looming over it.

To each his own. I find the OTT nature of wrestling to be much more in my wheelhouse - if anything, I think that having the freedom to watch it as I have time fits my schedule much better. But that also may just be the way we differ in how we consume our entertainment. Another thing driving my disinterest in WWE's product is how much weekly content they actually produce at this point. Even if the shows were good, 3 hours of Raw & 2 hours of Smackdown every week is bordering on overkill.

And just to clear up my point about TNA, I wasn't really referring to their current incarnation. It was more directed at the early days of the promotion, when it felt like a breath of fresh air with new faces & a different style of wrestling. Those days are obviously long gone.

And as for hoping WWE & Reigns fail, I can understand the reasons behind it. I'd just rather spend my time enjoying wrestling, that's all. Even if ROH, NJPW or Lucha Underground can't quite reach the heights WWE could, they do better with what they've already got and I'd much rather support a product like that.

As you've said, it's pretty clear that Vince is going to run his company the way he wants. And that's fine, I'll just choose to ignore his company and stop saying anything at all about it. In this day & age where people can voice their opinion in so many ways, if they just stopped talking about WWE, things would change in a hurry.

Here's the thing, WWE has the best roster in America, so while Lucha Underground and ROH put on good shows they still aren't as important to me as WWE. If any combination of Bryan, Ambrose, Rollins Ziggler, Wyatt, Harper, Cesaro, Rusev, Zayn, Breeze, Itami, or Neville jumped ship it'd be a different story.

It wouldn't shock me to see a few guys leave after their contracts expire (Dolph especially). By all accounts, the payoffs haven't been all that great since the Network launch & the talents haven't been making as much money in years past. I don't know what Cesaro is making in WWE, but I imagine he'd probably make just as much if not more if he were being utilized like AJ Styles.

 

[Samurai_Adam]

The Booker T special was good. Just needed to be an hour longer.

Agreed. I wouldn't mind seeing a dvd release with an extended cut.

 

[Superman Earth1]

IMO WWE should've let WCW and ECW continue. WWE was at it's best when it was competing with someone and when they brought them up that's when their product started to go big time.

 

[TheNextNolan22]

The slow-burn/no burn approach to Rollins/Orton has officially killed my interest in that match despite me liking the stuff with Jon Stewart on Raw. I officially have nothing to look forward to at Mania this year which is a rare feat. Even if Rollins cashes in successfully in the ME, I won't give a damn. Even the mediocre show that was WM27 had stuff for me to look forward and if that show was the mediocre, forgettable show few of us remember it to be, I can only begin to imagine what that means for Mania 31.

On a lighter note:
New Japan Cup begins tonight. Very excited and expecting a few surprises. Here's who I have going over in the first round:

Hiroshi Tanahashi over Toru Yano
Kota Ibushi over Doc Gallows
Karl Anderson over Tetsuya Naito (though, it is possible we see a Golden Stardust match up in the 2nd round)
Kazuchika Okada over Bad Luck Fale
Togi Makabe over Honmania
Yujiro over Tacos
Yuji Nagata over Hirooki Goto
Shibata over Kojima

 

[sweetre15]

As I've already said, it seems like Bryan has become post Cell Saga Gohan except instead of an immensely popular "Goku" getting in his way, it's like they are trying to force Roman "Hercule" Reigns into being the main hero and successor.

 

[Superark]

I tried the alternate thing 10 years ago when the Cena regime started, I watched TNA, ROH and NOAH as regular as possible. The latter are hard to get into and harder to find, neither has much in the way of continuity and you wait ages between events, it's hard to get any rhythm, and I am not keen on the OTT nature of the wrestling. TNA is as bad as WWE just with cheaper production values and someone even more clueless in charge.

So yes, I hope WWE and Reigns fail spectacularly, I feel semi bad for Reigns but he is the living personification of everything wrong with WWE right now, and as their avatar I hope he falls on his face hard.

Any company that spits in it's fans faces and then takes the one guy genuinely supported by the majority and makes him into a complete nothing to show their "dominance," deserves to fail. I can barely watch NXT as the stench of McMahon and his odious, bloated cancer riddled WWE juggernaut is looming over it.



I had to address the bolded part first, Triple H booked as the face of the attitude era? If being the 4th biggest star of the era makes you the face then okidoki............

I can understand your dilemma my friend as I know you are by far the biggest Sting fan here, but in truth this match was always a dud because it's merely a way for Sting to get a Mania win under his belt before he faces Taker next year, same way they are wasting a Mania spot on this Bray vs Taker garbage so Taker can get back on the winning track before facing Sting. Everything right now is being booked for the wrong reasons and it's why the show stinks so much.

I cannot argue your point. Sting and Taker really is the match to be made. I will totally admit that I have a bias too, because even though Taker/Sting is the biggest match to make, I'd hate to see Sting lose his first match at Mania.

I think there are a few reasons for the Sting/HHH match being made.

1) Taker's health and age combined with Sting's. Both men are older and have lingering issues. WWE has no idea what they'll get with the match. I think they want to gauge where both men are at physically and don't want a stinker. HHH can carry Sting to a better match at this point.

2) Like you pointed out, Sting gets a win in his debut, Taker gets a win back. Both men get to wrestle each other on wins in their home state of Texas.

3) I'm just guessing, but I really think WWE wants to familiarize Sting with WWE audience. The audience is so much younger these days with no connection to Sting. Having Sting face HHH gives him a chance build an emotional investment with the audience, given HHH's role as a heel. Sting fighting Taker would likely result in Stinger getting mostly boos. I think atmosphere will be much more intense and split next year.

4) HHH gets to live out his Ric Flair fantasy once again. Facing and getting pinned by Sting will probably be a cool moment for him. And of course he gets a little ego boost from it by being Sting's first opponent and can tell this silly I am the WWE narrative.

I can absolutely see why some fans have no desire to see Sting/HHH. It makes sense and Taker and Sting is the dream match people want to see. But WWE has some good reasons behind it and Sting himself has said he would like to wrestle HHH. Once again, I think WWE is using the wrong narrative to the build, as Taker will always be seen as the WWE, not HHH.

Despite the build, I'm sure the spectacle and match itself will be great. In a lot ways it reminds me of Hogan vs. Rock. The story and build up to the match was wrong, as everyone knows it should have been Austin vs. Hulk, but the Mania moment itself was still great to see and Rock's style probably was better suited to Hulk.