They Say He Drinks Blood: The Rumours and Speculation Thread

[Invader Joker]

There's almost no world in which Legacy isn't the least successful of the next three DC movies unless its a crazy 10/10 masterpiece with the worlds greatest marketing campaign. So, that's gonna be interesting.

I'd not understimate James Gunn, after all, all his Guardians films made more than The Batman (even GoTG 3 despite Marvel being in the worst state it's ever been and people predicting it was gonna undeperform before release) and Legacy does have quite a bit of hype behind it, more than I thought which is surprising. You can bring up TSS but I still think that's a dumb comparison to make for a lot of reasons and Superman is way more likely to be closer in tone to his PG 13 Guardians and more of a general audience crowd pleaseer than his R-Rated The Suicide Squad.

But even then yeah it's likely Legacy doesn't do as well, the problem tho is not whether it does as well as those or not, the problem is whether it flops. If it makes 500 million or less that's gonna be an issue. If it makes like 700 million but The Batman 2 and Joker do a billion they can live with that.

 

[emc5466]

John Rocha says the script was turned in last week and that Batman Earth One is the inspiration for the movie.

 

[WayneMB]

oh

 

[Boom]

Who the cuss is John Rocha?

 

[WayneMB]

earth one bullock or clayface could be fun

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Well if John Rocha says it.

 

[emielaen]

He does that hilariously dumb podcast w that Sneider guy. They were getting mad about a critic putting Showing Up in their top 10 lists, and one in particular having Oppenheimer as an honorable mention. It was very funny.

 

[Pennywise]

https://**************.com/batman/t...ke-influence-from-earth-one-a208587#gs.2a8ou1

Recently, DC Studios co-CEO James Gunn appeared to debunk reports that several characters, Scarecrow, Clayface, Professor Pyg, and Hush, were set to appear in the movie, but didn't clarify whether all or only some of these rumors were "made up."

On this week's episode of The Hot Mic, host John Rocha mentioned that he heard "half" of the characters mentioned above will be introduced, with Jeff Sneider chiming in that he was told Tommy Elliot, aka Hush, is indeed a part of the script.

Take it with some salt as with the info mentioned a few posts back.

 

[BobJM]

If Hush is indeed the main baddie, then hopefully the mystery that drives the sequel’s plot (if Reeves continues in that direction with his noir take) isn’t his identity. The only way I could see that working is if there’s a few other red herring characters included, like Harvey Dent or Lincoln March.

Tommy Elliot dons the HUSH persona, hiring his former med school classmate Laslo Valentin, now known as Professor Pyg, to turn Basil Karlo into Lincoln March using his chemical & surgical experimentation.

March claims he’s Bruce’s biological brother, with DNA match to prove it, turning Bruce’s world upside down. While Bruce’s life is in turmoil, a new masked vigilante appears (dressed like comicbook Hush) and begins murdering mobsters, making Batman the number one suspect. Mayor Real, with new D.A. Harvey Dent, pressures Gordon to create a task force to take down Batman in an effort to re-establish the public’s trust in the GCPD.

So Pyg’s the opening act villain, Gordon and Batman bust up one of his underground “clinics” and save a group of hostages.

The rest of the film has Bruce dealing with the arrival of Lincoln March, as Batman must try to uncover the identity of this new killer vigilante, protect the criminals that have been targeted, and evade the police task force (while still secretly working with Gordon). Throw Catwoman in there somewhere too.

Lincoln March would essentially be an amalgamation of his original appearance with Earth One Clayface.

The end reveal is that Tommy Elliott orchestrated this attack on Bruce and Batman, stemming from his obsession with Bruce and his wealth.

 

[BatLobster]

I’m late to this discussion, but I’d just like to add that I think it would be a real shame if we never got to see the Court of Owls in this noir, horror-esque that Reeves has set up. It seems like such a natural fit for this universe. For me it felt like a bit of a letdown in The Batman that the big shocking revelation was that Falcone runs the city. It made sense for the story and the idea of Falcone subverting the Waynes’ philanthropy is a good one, but it also doesn’t really wow you in terms of “so that’s how deep the corruption went.” It’s just a matter of the corrupt bad guy with a lot of influence having more influence than anyone realized. To me, the mob is always a bridge to something even worse in the Batman mythos, not the final boss.

That said, my hope would be for the next movie to focus on some more immediate stakes, then have the third movie wrap around to some type of bigger revelations about the past, which could leave some room for the Court or at least something loosely based on it that Reeves could adapt to fit his story. It’s a classic trilogy formula but I do think it works.

I’m wait and see about all the Hush rumors. If that’s the direction, then I’m intrigued to see what Reeves has in mind, but I do have a hard time seeing how Hush would be upping the ante from The Riddler as a villain at least in terms of screen presence. If he‘s someone pulling the strings behind some other baddies, okay, but that does always risk cheapening those characters. Just hard to picture it at the moment, but we’ll see if it’s even true.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I’m late to this discussion, but I’d just like to add that I think it would be a real shame if we never got to see the Court of Owls in this noir, horror-esque that Reeves has set up. It seems like such a natural fit for this universe. For me it felt like a bit of a letdown in The Batman that the big shocking revelation was that Falcone runs the city. It made sense for the story and the idea of Falcone subverting the Waynes’ philanthropy is a good one, but it also doesn’t really wow you in terms of “so that’s how deep the corruption went.” It’s just a matter of the corrupt bad guy with a lot of influence having more influence than anyone realized. To me, the mob is always a bridge to something even worse in the Batman mythos, not the final boss.

That said, my hope would be for the next movie to focus on some more immediate stakes, then have the third movie wrap around to some type of bigger revelations about the past, which could leave some room for the Court or at least something loosely based on it that Reeves could adapt to fit his story. It’s a classic trilogy formula but I do think it works.

I’m wait and see about all the Hush rumors. If that’s the direction, then I’m intrigued to see what Reeves has in mind, but I do have a hard time seeing how Hush would be upping the ante from The Riddler as a villain at least in terms of screen presence. If he‘s someone pulling the strings behind some other baddies, okay, but that does always risk cheapening those characters. Just hard to picture it at the moment, but we’ll see if it’s even true.

The relative mundanity of the conspiracy is part of what makes it effective and is more in tune with the vibe of the movie than a bigger twist would have been. It may not have a "wow" factor but personally that isn't something in storytelling I value all that much, at least compared to thematic coherence and keeping the focus on character - both of which Reeves accomplished. The Falcone stuff is also the best part of the movie despite suffering the most from being stuffed into the constraints of a three hour film and the movie would so much lesser with it being reduced.

I'm not particularly interested in gangster stuff in Batman at all but IMO Falcone is an incredibly strong, fascinating antagonist - there's a ton of depth to him and a visceral, unpleasant darkness. Reeves really gets right up to the limit of what is probably appropriate to explore in a Batman film with Falcone's characterization as basically a lowkey serial killer who gets off on strangling women and that's not even getting into the Chinatown implications layered on his interactions with Selina. The Court of Owls is a neat high concept but that is all it really is. Turtorro's Falcone is an actual character. Plus, while I'm not going to argue the Falcone stuff in The Batman is saying anything revelatory thematically I do feel it is still more meaningful as a statement about corruption than The Court which you basically can't make an actual statement with because then you're just having Batman fight QAnon.

Sidenote: What a pedigree Falcone of all characters has on screen, huh? Deeply boring character in the comics - basically a nothing character in Year One and utterly generic in TLH (because Jeph Loeb is a hack) - but has really shined in the movies.

 

[BatLobster]

The relative mundanity of the conspiracy is part of what makes it effective and is more in tune with the vibe of the movie than a bigger twist would have been. It may not have a "wow" factor but personally that isn't something in storytelling I value all that much, at least compared to thematic coherence and keeping the focus on character - both of which Reeves accomplished. The Falcone stuff is also the best part of the movie despite suffering the most from being stuffed into the constraints of a three hour film and the movie would so much lesser with it being reduced.

I'm not particularly interested in gangster stuff in Batman at all but IMO Falcone is an incredibly strong, fascinating antagonist - there's a ton of depth to him and a visceral, unpleasant darkness. Reeves really gets right up to the limit of what is probably appropriate to explore in a Batman film with Falcone's characterization as basically a lowkey serial killer who gets off on strangling women and that's not even getting into the Chinatown implications layered on his interactions with Selina. The Court of Owls is a neat high concept but that is all it really is. Turtorro's Falcone is an actual character. Plus, while I'm not going to argue the Falcone stuff in The Batman is saying anything revelatory thematically I do feel it is still more meaningful as a statement about corruption than The Court which you basically can't make an actual statement with because then you're just having Batman fight QAnon.

Sidenote: What a pedigree Falcone of all characters has on screen, huh? Deeply boring character in the comics - basically a nothing character in Year One and utterly generic in TLH (because Jeph Loeb is a hack) - but has really shined in the movies.

The Court being a "neat concept" is exactly why I think it's ripe for a filmmaker to come in and mold it to fit their story. It'd be no different than if Reeves adapts Hush and takes it in a totally new direction, or even what he did with Riddler. I also think there are absolutely some interesting ideas you could explore within the concept of elite secret societies that would have resonance for the story as well as draw on some real world parallels. It's a broad framework to work in. I didn't mean "wow" in terms of a shocking reveal, more in terms of pushing into the heightened reality of this world and mythos as well as some of the more creepy and bizarre realities of our own.

I'm not saying The Batman needed to have a bigger reveal than the one it made. What they did worked for the movie. But I'm saying that I think there's room left to broaden the scope and history if they want to reveal deeper depths of Gotham's corruption in future films. To me, it's kinda like if we got to the absolute bottom of the core mystery of what's plaguing the city in the first film, then what's the point of doing more detective-based films? It risks feeling 'case of the week' if there isn't a larger thread that's being unraveled over the course of the films. Unless Reeves plans to shift genres a bit like Nolan did, which could also be interesting. But I just kinda sense that it's gonna be tricky to totally pivot from the tone of the first one which was so specific.

 

[C Prometheus]

earth one bullock or clayface could be fun

Not that I particularly trust Rocha as a source, but bizarrely enough... I could see Reeves pulling from Earth One if Two Face shows up as the main antagonist of Part 3.

Granted, I still think that Reeves is likely using the Loeb books as the primary foundation of the BatVerse and the overarching narrative of his 'Epic Crime Saga,' but there is already quite a lot of influence from Earth One that we see in key ways in The Batman. I can definitely imagine how Reeves might continue to pull heavily from both sources as the saga moves forward. And really, it's not that hard to imagine a scenario where Reeves marries together the climaxes of Earth One Vol 3 and Dark Victory together, where Two Face and the Freaks' final war with the last vestiges of Gotham's old mafias finally lead to the city erupting in fires via the sewers.

That said, if Reeves were to adapt the Jessica Dent storyline... I wonder whether or not he'd play that into the current BatCat subplot in the first film. Moreover, if he were to introduce Jessica and establish that romantic tension between her and Bruce... would Reeves opt to have his teases of how Bruce and Selina will be enemies next time they meet ultimately lead to a development where the two never quite take off romantically and instead Bruce finds himself with Jessica instead?

 

[Invader Joker]

The Court being a "neat concept" is exactly why I think it's ripe for a filmmaker to come in and mold it to fit their story. It'd be no different than if Reeves adapts Hush and takes it in a totally new direction, or even what he did with Riddler. I also think there are absolutely some interesting ideas you could explore within the concept of elite secret societies that would have resonance for the story as well as draw on some real world parallels. It's a broad framework to work in. I didn't mean "wow" in terms of a shocking reveal, more in terms of pushing into the heightened reality of this world and mythos as well as some of the more creepy and bizarre realities of our own.

I'm not saying The Batman needed to have a bigger reveal than the one it made. What they did worked for the movie. But I'm saying that I think there's room left to broaden the scope and history if they want to reveal deeper depths of Gotham's corruption in future films. To me, it's kinda like if we got to the absolute bottom of the core mystery of what's plaguing the city in the first film, then what's the point of doing more detective-based films? It risks feeling 'case of the week' if there isn't a larger thread that's being unraveled over the course of the films. Unless Reeves plans to shift genres a bit like Nolan did, which could also be interesting. But I just kinda sense that it's gonna be tricky to totally pivot from the tone of the first one which was so specific.

Also the Court allows a cinematic vehicle to explore the concept of evil billionaires and welfare class which the first movie /kinda/ alluded to but they also didn't really explore it with any depth whatsoever because they ended up going back to organized crime and the mafia; which is fine, that worked perfectly for the movie, but it's also the sort of thing that's not even really that resonant nowadays especially in America where the hatred towards the 1% is probably at an all time-high and people are extremely aware of how those people operate.

I really really don't understand the whole "Qanon" criticism for the Court because QAnon is a dumb and deplorable conspiracy theory but the reasons it's dumb have nothing to do with the fact that undeniably there are billionaires in the real world that do conspire together to screw over the working class and do shady stuff together and they have absolutely nothing to do with the mob. All the Court really adds to that very real fact is a cinematic and visual way to explore it and make it interesting in the context of a Batman story.

Not to mention that if Matt wants to explore more of Bruce Wayne in the sequel (which I would argue he should since it's what he set up int he first film) I don't really think there's a better way to do it than the Court either. They allow for really clean and new ways for Bruce to be incorporated into the plot in a significant manner and they also serve as the perfect counterpart for him in the context of high society.

I will also add to this conversation with the whole "but wouldn't be a repetition of yet another conspiracy in Gotham" that, as much as I like grounded Batman, the truth of the matter is that with this type of Batman there is bound to be repetition with the villain no matter what because any grounded reinvention of the classic rogues is /bound/ to be a serial killer/terrorist which the Riddler already was. And even tho on paper you can say "but the Court would be another conspiracy" at least the ways in which Bruce can go about exploring that conspiracy can be waay, waaaay different than in the first movie, as well as the set pieces involved and the overall structure which can lead you into very different rabbitholes than the first movie did. Meanwhile if you do a serial killer/terorrist there's really only one way to do that type of story which is Batman seeing murders that pop up and investigating them while the killer taunts or whatever which would be way more repetitive.

 

[BatLobster]

Also the Court allows a cinematic vehicle to explore the concept of evil billionaires and welfare class which the first movie /kinda/ alluded to but they also didn't really explore it with any depth whatsoever because they ended up going back to organized crime and the mafia; which is fine, that worked perfectly for the movie, but it's also the sort of thing that's not even really that resonant nowadays especially in America where the hatred towards the 1% is probably at an all time-high and people are extremely aware of how those people operate.

I really really don't understand the whole "Qanon" criticism for the Court because QAnon is a dumb and deplorable conspiracy theory but the reasons it's dumb have nothing to do with the fact that undeniably there are billionaires in the real world that do conspire together to screw over the working class and do shady stuff together and they have absolutely nothing to do with the mob. All the Court really adds to that very real fact is a cinematic and visual way to explore it and make it interesting in the context of a Batman story.

Not to mention that if Matt wants to explore more of Bruce Wayne in the sequel (which I would argue he should since it's what he set up int he first film) I don't really think there's a better way to do it than the Court either. They allow for really clean and new ways for Bruce to be incorporated into the plot in a significant manner and they also serve as the perfect counterpart for him in the context of high society.

I will also add to this conversation with the whole "but wouldn't be a repetition of yet another conspiracy in Gotham" that, as much as I like grounded Batman, the truth of the matter is that with this type of Batman there is bound to be repetition with the villain no matter what because any grounded reinvention of the classic rogues is /bound/ to be a serial killer/terrorist which the Riddler already was. And even tho on paper you can say "but the Court would be another conspiracy" at least the ways in which Bruce can go about exploring that conspiracy can be waay, waaaay different than in the first movie, as well as the set pieces involved and the overall structure which can lead you into very different rabbitholes than the first movie did. Meanwhile if you do a serial killer/terorrist there's really only one way to do that type of story which is Batman seeing murders that pop up and investigating them while the killer taunts or whatever which would be way more repetitive.

I would add that I think there's linkages between "the mob" and that elite stuff too.

The mob as depicted in The Batman is the tried and true, Costra Nostra that everyone thinks of when they think "the mob".

What "the mob" means in the 21st century is really a whole different ballgame. Organized crime is international, it has taken over nation-states (Russia), human trafficking is a real issue around the globe, politicians are compromised at the national level, money laundering takes place through crypto/tech/major corporations...impossible to get into the nitty gritty of it all without writing a novel here, but suffice it to say the scope of corruption has expanded as the world has become smaller.

I think The Batman was knocking at the door of some of this stuff by revealing that the mob was a lot more powerful than anyone realized, but I think there's a lot more to explore there in terms of how this impacted all levels of society in Gotham. To me, this is really the element that's most worth exploring in this iteration of the franchise. I want to see Batman keep following the money until it leads somewhere truly disturbing.

 

[Invader Joker]

I would add that I think there's linkages between "the mob" and that elite stuff too.

The mob as depicted in The Batman is the tried and true, Costra Nostra that everyone thinks of when they think "the mob".

What "the mob" means in the 21st century is really a whole different ballgame. Organized crime is international, it has taken over nation-states (Russia), human trafficking is a real issue around the globe, politicians are compromised at the national level, money laundering takes place through crypto/tech/major corporations...impossible to get into the nitty gritty of it all without writing a novel here, but suffice it to say the scope of corruption has expanded as the world has become smaller.

I think The Batman was knocking at the door of some of this stuff by revealing that the mob was a lot more powerful than anyone realized, but I think there's a lot more to explore there in terms of how this impacted all levels of society in Gotham. To me, this is really the element that's most worth exploring in this iteration of the franchise. I want to see Batman keep following the money until it leads somewhere truly disturbing.

Yup, I think all of that stuff is way more interesting to explore and way more resonant with the modern day than yet another serial killer or weirdo terrorist with a vendetta/obsession with Batman, which is what every single Batman villain adapted to a grounded setting is bound to be like. Not to mention that even thematically I don't think it adds /anything/ to Bruce's character to put him up against someone like that again, when the Court in contrast can make him reckon with his wealth and his place in society in way more direct ways than a serial killer hating him because he's rich.

 

[C Prometheus]

Man, imagine if we spend all of this time debating over the probability of villains like Hush or the Court of Owls taking center stage in Part 2, and it turns out that Penguin ends up being the main villain instead after he takes over the Gotham City crime families at the end of his HBO show this year.

Again, I don't trust Rocha as a source, but I will admit that the idea that Reeves continues to pull heavily from the Earth One books sounds probable to me and I would imagine that he'll continue to heavily utilize the core Rogues Gallery characters that were introduced and set up in the first film here too. That's actually one of the bigger issues I tend to have with the idea of Reeves going with the Court next, since they're inherently more apart and isolated from the rest of the Rogues Gallery due to their nature as a conspiracy organization of the upper class puppeteering corruption in the city. Whereas with someone like Penguin or Hush, it's a bit easier to imagine how they'd tie back around to the other Rogues Gallery characters.

Actually, if Part 2 were to focus more heavily on Penguin, he'd be an easy way to continue exploring the themes of corruption and crime organizations in Gotham City and perhaps even showcase how Oz takes to the mantle of Kingpin of Gotham and how he goes about things differently than Falcone did before him.

 

[Gandhi]

The Hollywood Reporter is saying that this new Ryan Coogler/Michael B. Jordan movie WB just landed will begin filming in April. As it’s a vampire movie, I think that October 2025 date seems logical as @FilmNerdJamie suggests.

Where do you all stand on the release date now that we’ve reached February without any further updates? If August is the filming start date, I find it hard to believe it will keep Oct 25. I think a move to March again seems likely.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

A delay is entirely possible but I feel like we're forgetting the only reason the first movie was an exceptionally long shoot was it was being made at the worst time in the history of cinema to be making a movie. The August window, which is not remotely confirmed but seems realistic, makes it tight but doable. Who knows though, it is what it is.

 

[Gandhi]

A delay is entirely possible but I feel like we're forgetting the only reason the first movie was an exceptionally long shoot was it was being made at the worst time in the history of cinema to be making a movie. The August window, which is not remotely confirmed but seems realistic, makes it tight but doable. Who knows though, it is what it is.

I think a normal shoot for a movie of this scale is at least 4 or 5 months. Then about a year of post-production. Plus, I’m not sure they’d want to box themselves in to such a tight schedule.

But I hope I’m wrong as I would like it to stay in 2025. Hopefully we get an update soon.

 

[C Prometheus]

A delay is entirely possible but I feel like we're forgetting the only reason the first movie was an exceptionally long shoot was it was being made at the worst time in the history of cinema to be making a movie. The August window, which is not remotely confirmed but seems realistic, makes it tight but doable. Who knows though, it is what it is.

If the idea that DC and WB have for Reeves' The Batman projects is still to be seen as a more prestigious affair than the mainline DCU projects, if they do delay, I think it'll probably be a new date in either November or December to try and help Part II do better in the awards season than the first film did.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

If the idea that DC and WB have for Reeves' The Batman projects is still to be seen as a more prestigious affair than the mainline DCU projects, if they do delay, I think it'll probably be a new date in either November or December to try and help Part II do better in the awards season than the first film did.

That would be wiser than a big jump into 2026 where I would worry it's coming out too late but they'd be super, super silly to think these would ever be awards fair. It's just never going to happen.

 

[C Prometheus]

That would be wiser than a big jump into 2026 where I would worry it's coming out too late but they'd be super, super silly to think these would ever be awards fair. It's just never going to happen.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I mean, it's not like the first film is your typical run of the mill CBM. Hell, Roger Deakins even spoke out about how the Academy made a mistake in snubbing The Batman for Best Cinematography even being nominated last year when it was far and away the obvious choice for that award. Besides, we live in a world where Black Panther got a Best Pictures nomination and Return of the King made an awards sweep at the Oscars twenty years ago.

If Reeves and Gunn want to really hammer in the idea of this trilogy being "an epic crime saga" as a prestige level project with the intent of making play at the awards season, then the specific window of release absolutely matters for Part II and III.

 

[Boom]

I'll start worrying if we get through March with no updates.

 

[BobJM]

Lol I don't meant to be all doom & gloom--but I am worried. So anxiously waiting some official word about Pt. 2.

And, at the danger of sounding like a broken record, hoping against hope that Kravitz will return as Selina. I'd much rather see her than see Riddler again (no shade to Dano).