The Defenders This show in the larger MCU...

[Heretic]

I don't mind none of the Avengers showing up. What I do mind is none of the Defenders saying "uh...shouldn't we call the Avengers"...and the easy response was right there in the plot...

Spoiler

In an early episode, Stick is explaining everything to the team...and he says something about The Hand being everywhere. When a Defender suggests calling the Avengers, Stick could have responded that the Sokavia Accords have ensured that the Avengers are too tied up in red tape to help stop this...implying that The Hand even has agents inside, like Hydra did...without outright saying it.

 

[javonstokess]

I don't mind none of the Avengers showing up. What I do mind is none of the Defenders saying "uh...shouldn't we call the Avengers"...and the easy response was right there in the plot...

Spoiler

In an early episode, Stick is explaining everything to the team...and he says something about The Hand being everywhere. When a Defender suggests calling the Avengers, Stick could have responded that the Sokavia Accords have ensured that the Avengers are too tied up in red tape to help stop this...implying that The Hand even has agents inside, like Hydra did...without outright saying it.

To be fair, my assumption is that reaching out to the Avengers isn't as easy as picking up the phone and calling them. I mean, I can't just up and talk to Beyonce and Jay Z whenever I like. And on the off chance that you do get to speak with them, my guess is it'd be pretty difficult to A. convince them that the Hand exists and B. not get thrown in jail for not signing the Sokovia accords.

 

[ZIPBAGS]

To be fair, my assumption is that reaching out to the Avengers isn't as easy as picking up the phone and calling them. I mean, I can't just up and talk to Beyonce and Jay Z whenever I like. And on the off chance that you do get to speak with them, my guess is it'd be pretty difficult to A. convince them that the Hand exists and B. not get thrown in jail for not signing the Sokovia accords.

Well they do have their headquarters in upstate NY. I am also sure if someone like Luke went up (with his abilities shown in the news) he could get to meet with someone.

With regards to having more cross-references.....

t:

 

[NotNickFury]

I don't mind none of the Avengers showing up. What I do mind is none of the Defenders saying "uh...shouldn't we call the Avengers"...and the easy response was right there in the plot...

Spoiler

In an early episode, Stick is explaining everything to the team...and he says something about The Hand being everywhere. When a Defender suggests calling the Avengers, Stick could have responded that the Sokavia Accords have ensured that the Avengers are too tied up in red tape to help stop this...implying that The Hand even has agents inside, like Hydra did...without outright saying it.

Do they even KNOW about the Accords?

 

[Ninjablade]

Do they even KNOW about the Accords?

I'm pretty sure the Accords are public knowledge, especially since they're being taught to high students as shown in Spider-Man: Homecoming.

Thing is though, the Accords only apply to the Avengers because they travel between boarders. The whole reason they were put in place was so that the Avengers couldn't continue hoping between countries without permission. The Defenders all stay in the US, so they don't need to be a part of the Accords to operate technically speaking.

 

[javonstokess]

Well they do have their headquarters in upstate NY. I am also sure if someone like Luke went up (with his abilities shown in the news) he could get to meet with someone.

With regards to having more cross-references.....

t:

By the time the Defenders took the time to drive to the Avengers compound, have the obligatory fight with the Avengers and then team up, the Hand would have won the day already.

I think folks just need to let it go. Think of the MCU, Netflix, ABC and Freeform Marvel shows as different imprints under the Marvel banner. Sure, they are in the same world, but they rarely "touch".

Like, we all live in the same world as Beyonce, but that doesn't mean we'll meet her, much less do a duet.

 

[Loki882]

It'd be easier to let it go, if Marvel didn't brag about "it's all connected." Which feels like total BS at this point.

Also not bumping into Beyoncé isn't going to potentially lead to an entire city being destroyed, so it's exactly the same thing.

 

[Loki882]

I think The Incident is the name they gave it within the world of the show. Like how we say 9/11 instead of something more lengthy like "the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center." And they have mentioned Captain America and Thor by name.

Personally, I don't understand why this is a question that has to be raised with EVERY MCU property. We already know why The Avengers aren't showing up: the departments are separate and it's too expensive. These shows have budgets of 50 million. Robert Downey Jr. was paid that same amount to appear in the first Avengers. Even if he took a pay cut of fifty percent his paycheck alone would eat up half the seasons budget, and I assume the rest of the actors aren't far off from that. It's not going to happen, probably ever.

Further, this show is about four characters, none of whom are Avengers. It's their story, you've been following it for five seasons waiting for this culmination. If you're really that hung up on why the Avengers aren't showing up or getting a call in the Defenders big moment, perhaps this isn't for you.

Except every other place in the MCU calls it the "Battle of New York." So why not just call it here to?

 

[NotNickFury]

It'd be easier to let it go, if Marvel didn't brag about "it's all connected." Which feels like total BS at this point.

I'd more blame Jeph Loeb for that than anyone else since he's the main one that kept spouting it.

 

[pixen]

Except every other place in the MCU calls it the "Battle of New York." So why not just call it here to?

Yes, but these characters live in NYC, they only have one incident to talk about. While the Avengers/AoS deal with the other things that have happened in the films. The Incident is the only thing that has really touched the Defenders directly.

 

[Random490]

It's perfectly reasonable why the Avengers or Doctor Strange don't show up. The show itself details how difficult it is to convince the cops what's going on(and that's with a detective on their side), how would they convince enough people to get the Avengers involved? How long would that have taken? Also remember it was established that the Hand has ties to governments and the media to keep things quite.

Also keep in mind that the eye witness here is a lawyer would have to admit to being a vigilante, a private eye who was investigated for murder and had stolen evidence, an ex-con, and a rich kid who says he fought a dragon. Not exactly the best witnesses to convince others.

Also the time table of the plot was very quick, only taking place over a two day period. And each character came at the problem though separate means, after the hallway fight it becomes more about figuring out they're next move, then [BLACKOUT]getting people they know to safety, then keep Danny away from, ending with them having to rescue him. This all happens really fast and by the time the real threat to the city was know (that extracting the dragon would collapse the city)[/BLACKOUT] it was too late to try and get the Avengers.

For Doctor Strange, not only does no one know who he is and that he can help, but how would he have known anything was going on? The only warning system we saw in Kamar-Taj was for inter-dimensional stuff.

Spoiler

The actions the Hand took wasn't magical but just a subterranean construction project. No magic was involved, at least not magic as it was shown in Doctor Strange. The only thing supernatural was a substance that can bring back the dead, the black sky being a superhuman, and Gao's telekinesis

All of which easily flies under the radar of magical protectors more concerned with the world than a crime organization

 

[Havok83]

The Avengers were disbanded in Civil War. Some are in jail and others are on the run. I dont know why you would expect them to show up here. Even if they were still together, the stuff with the Hand was handled rather quietly. There werent big splashy battles or acts of terrorism to foreign nations. The Defenders were drawn into this stuff bc they and/or people they knew were personally attached to this stuff, which is why they knew about it

 

[metaphysician]

The Netflix shows are a lot better than Agents of SHIELD is at making it believable the Avengers wouldn't be there. At least this feels like a smaller scale than Hive and Inhumans, for instance.

Other than Cage not believing Danny, that's the only thing that made me smh.

What's wrong with Luke disbelieving Danny? Just because superpowers and aliens exist, doesn't mean mystic kung fu cities and dragons do. And Luke's own experience is a lot more limited than that of the Avengers, just a couple superhumans, some unethical experiments, and a guy with advanced weaponry.

 

[righthooksrus86]

I do find it a little disappointing that the shows and movies dont really feel connected. But the way I look at it I prefer the Netflix Marvel shows to the MCU films anyway. Matter of fact if I just get to see the Punisher when it comes out I wouldn't even have to see any more of the movies.

 

[dmcreif]

I am just starting episode 5 and the only reason I am posting this here is I am afraid of seeing spoilers. I know they still call the alien invasion from "The Avengers" the incident. I just find it hard to believe that if something this dramatic was happening in NYC...the Avengers or some of them would be interested? I wish they would have just kept the universes separate if they are going to pull these things. Even just a comment by one of the group that The Avengers are not around...anything.

There's a few reasons the Avengers don't get involved:

1. Storyline wise, the Avengers are too "high level" for this and by the time the Defenders know the scale of the threat they're being hunted by the police.

2. Stark Tower is being sold, so no Avengers are there at the moment. Additionally, the Avengers are pretty much disbanded now. There's Iron Man, Vision...and that's it. Spider-Man eventually refused membership, War Machine is crippled, Hulk and Thor are off in space, and Cap's entire squad are on the run. On top of all of that, they had a limited amount of time (the 8 episodes of The Defenders take place mostly in the space of about two days) and most of what was going on was in secret. The official story was that there was an earthquake. There's not much to get anyone's attention and they couldn't waste time calling people who might not be able to respond in time.

3. How would the Defenders contact the Avengers? They don't exactly have Tony Stark's number on speed dial, and I somehow doubt you could walk into Stark Tower and make a claim of the city being in danger without it having to go through a lot of channels before ever actually reaching the Avengers.

4. WHY contact the Avengers? What kind of help could they provide, that those four could not do on their own with their own resources? Clear the area of evil ninjas in a short time and with little effort? They can do that as well. Their problem is not the physical strength of a single enemy, but a group of quasi-mafia leaders who have reserves and can attack the heroes by attacking their closer people.

Or how about a mention that the Avengers came to recruit them. In the movies we see Tony recruit a teenage Spidey stopping muggers in Queens. Yet, not one of the Defenders was worth talking to?

There's a few reasons Tony would pick Peter over the others:

* Matt would never accept as he is a vigilante that works in the shadows, trying to get as minimal notice as possible. Joining Tony in a very public fight at an airport is definitely below the last thing Matt would ever accept to do. And seeing how Wilson Fisk had numerous cops and politicians in his pocket, Matt probably is not one to trust authority, knowing full well that authority can be corrupted by those with an agenda. Signing the Accords would be like giving himself over to people like Fisk, Samantha Reyes and Mariah Dillard on a silver plate. And besides, his powers would have hardly been useful in that fight: he's not physically enhanced. He may be effective against basic thugs and Hand ninjas, but what can Matt hope to do against super soldiers, witches, size-changing guys and the like? His radar sense give him an edge in the darkness, but that power would be useless in a fight in broad daylight.

* Matt also retired from Daredevil activities after Elektra's death at the end of season 2.

* Even though Matt, Jessica, Luke, and even Frank Castle have been active longer, are physically older, and more well known by the populace, there's reasons Tony would prefer Peter rather than those four:

** Only Jessica and Luke are superpowered. Tony explicitly wanted a heavy-hitter (someone who as he notes in Civil War stopped a heavy car dead in tracks moving at 40 mph) against the likes of super-soldiers Captain America and Winter Soldier and Scarlet Witch.

** Plus, again, Matt, Jessica, Luke, and Frank would never agree. Again, Matt is not one to trust authority, since he saw how Wilson Fisk corrupted the legal system. Jessica keeps a low profile on purpose and isolates herself because of the trauma of Kilgrave. Luke keeps a low profile because he doesn't want anyone to find out he's Carl Lucas the escaped fugitive. Frank would be very hard to find for even Tony, and is nowhere near his comic-book counterparts in terms of experience fighting superbeings. And, seeing how Frank acted in the original Civil War comic event, he might be reluctant to fight Cap or Bucky.

** On top of all that, Tony explicitly goes to Peter for the potential of his webbing, since he engages Team Cap with the express desire to capture rather than injure or kill. Going to Frank would have been counterintuitive seeing as he's a vigilante that ONLY uses lethal force.

** On a character level, Tony would gravitate to a high school-aged science nerd over a lawyer with a social conscience (Tony would see Matt as too similar to Steve), and would probably not even bother with Jessica, Luke, or Frank. Plus, a poor teenage kid is easier to impress into service in a factional dispute than an experienced lawyer and zealous vigilante, and Tony is fighting an ideological fight against Cap.

 

[Havok83]

There's a few reasons Tony would pick Peter over the others:

* Matt would never accept as he is a vigilante that works in the shadows, trying to get as minimal notice as possible. Joining Tony in a very public fight at an airport is definitely below the last thing Matt would ever accept to do. And seeing how Wilson Fisk had numerous cops and politicians in his pocket, Matt probably is not one to trust authority, knowing full well that authority can be corrupted by those with an agenda. Signing the Accords would be like giving himself over to people like Fisk, Samantha Reyes and Mariah Dillard on a silver plate. And besides, his powers would have hardly been useful in that fight: he's not physically enhanced. He may be effective against basic thugs and Hand ninjas, but what can Matt hope to do against super soldiers, witches, size-changing guys and the like? His radar sense give him an edge in the darkness, but that power would be useless in a fight in broad daylight.
.

He didnt say that Matt should have joined the Avengers. The post you quoted was about why Tony wouldnt recruit him to begin with. Tony trying to recruit Daredevil and having him turn him down makes more sense than him being ignored all together. Tony wouldnt know that DD wouldnt help unless he tried, which he didnt. OP was saying a line about Matt mentioning that in passing would have done alot to connect this show within the larger MCU

Tony recruiting Peter was dumb and the biggest flaw of Civil War. It made no sense in context with the story, added nothing to it and was only done bc of the deal that Disney secured with Sony

 

[dmcreif]

He didnt say that Matt should have joined the Avengers. The post you quoted was about why Tony wouldnt recruit him to begin with. Tony trying to recruit Daredevil and having him turn him down makes more sense than him being ignored all together. Tony wouldnt know that DD wouldnt help unless he tried, which he didnt. OP was saying a line about Matt mentioning that in passing would have done alot to connect this show within the larger MCU

Tony recruiting Peter was dumb and the biggest flaw of Civil War. It made no sense in context with the story, added nothing to it and was only done bc of the deal that Disney secured with Sony

Let's also consider Tony appears to have had an eye on Peter for a while, and probably for longer than Matt had been Daredeviling.

 

[Random490]

I'd like to point out that the only footage of Daredevil available is him doing a kick flip, while there's footage of Spider-man catching a car. So would a guy doing parkour and beating up muggers really catch his interest? Probably not. On the other hand, the guy with provable super strength would.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Yeah, I think there's a much stronger argument for Luke Cage than Daredevil.

 

[Havok83]

Let's also consider Tony appears to have had an eye on Peter for a while, and probably for longer than Matt had been Daredeviling.

well thats not true. As of CW, Peter had only been Spider-Man for 6 months. Matt had been Daredevil by about a year. This doesnt matter though as its really inconsequential to the point being made

 

[dmcreif]

I'd like to point out that the only footage of Daredevil available is him doing a kick flip, while there's footage of Spider-man catching a car. So would a guy doing parkour and beating up muggers really catch his interest? Probably not. On the other hand, the guy with provable super strength would.

By the way, that footage was of Daredevil beating up cops and it wasn't necessarily apparent that he was doing so to stop them from killing him and Vladimir.

 

[NealKenneth]

Usually the "where was X during X" question is like a pesky fly but there have been two times that I felt it was truly valid during the MCU so far.

The first time was when the President was held hostage during Iron Man 3 and no one from SHIELD or Captain America was ever mentioned. The second time was during The Defenders when an "earthquake" occured and scientists were talking about the epicenter being a few hundred feet underground a few blocks away from Stark Tower. Just found it very unbelievable that no one from The Avengers would look into that.

 

[dmcreif]

I'm pretty sure the Accords are public knowledge, especially since they're being taught to high students as shown in Spider-Man: Homecoming.

Thing is though, the Accords only apply to the Avengers because they travel between boarders. The whole reason they were put in place was so that the Avengers couldn't continue hoping between countries without permission. The Defenders all stay in the US, so they don't need to be a part of the Accords to operate technically speaking.

Also, the Accords are more about regulating the flashy gifted people who are basically private military contractors operating without oversight, not bulletproof Harlem locals or blind guys in Devil suits focused on helping out their communities.

 

[dmcreif]

The second time was during The Defenders when an "earthquake" occured and scientists were talking about the epicenter being a few hundred feet underground a few blocks away from Stark Tower. Just found it very unbelievable that no one from The Avengers would look into that.

The official story was that there was an earthquake. That's not going to get the attention of the Avengers unless they were certain something was going on.

 

[SKSpawn]

Maybe it's better to think of it with real-world analogies. Like, the NYPD would tackle street-level crime, right? Not the army or the CIA. Sure, maybe the FBI would get involved, but it's unlikely that it would extend beyond that.

So, in the MCU, the Avengers are the army, S.H.I.E.L.D. are the CIA, and the Defenders are the police. The Avengers are busy globe-trotting and stopping global threat (alien invasions and so forth), S.H.I.E.L.D. are always one day away from crumbling apart from within these days (maybe, pre-Avengers, they would have gotten involved in the Netflix-level stuff but not now when they're always busy rounding up Inhumans or trying to not be disbanded...again), so it's up to the Defenders to take care of business in their own little corner.

It's not even that hard to believe; Spider-Man didn't run into the Avengers every single issue and the cross-over between all the many, many New York superheroes wasn't that common. They're all doing their own thing and, often, there's some overlap. Like, people moaned and *****ed about the lack of the Avengers in Iron man 3, Thor: The Dark World, and Captain America: The Winter Soldier but, when you watch those movies, it's pretty clear that the events from all three overlap with each other to explain why each character is kind of busy with their own stuff and can't just dash over to London at the drop of a hat.

While I don't necessarily like how the television stuff is never referenced in the movies, it's not that unbelievable that they're still all connected. Also, while it would be nice to see the Avengers tower, is it really that big a deal? I never found myself really looking out for it; being a Brit I just assumed that you can't see it from where they are in the series. It's not that uncommon; if I remember right, there's a scene in Spider-Man where Peter's sat on top of a building and, in the commentary, Sam Raimi talks about how they mashed together he skyline to create an impossible panoramic view for the audience. Or, how about the trains in Spider-Man 2; those aren't in new York but I don't recall anyone flipped out too hard over that.