The Defenders This show in the larger MCU...

Usually the "where was X during X" question is like a pesky fly but there have been two times that I felt it was truly valid during the MCU so far.

The first time was when the President was held hostage during Iron Man 3 and no one from SHIELD or Captain America was ever mentioned. The second time was during The Defenders when an "earthquake" occured and scientists were talking about the epicenter being a few hundred feet underground a few blocks away from Stark Tower. Just found it very unbelievable that no one from The Avengers would look into that.
I don't think it would be valid for the earthquake since the earth quake was reported as being from a fault line. The show made the effort to show the Hand was controlling the story. What the audience knows is different from what people outside of the story know.

Maybe it's better to think of it with real-world analogies. Like, the NYPD would tackle street-level crime, right? Not the army or the CIA. Sure, maybe the FBI would get involved, but it's unlikely that it would extend beyond that.

So, in the MCU, the Avengers are the army, S.H.I.E.L.D. are the CIA, and the Defenders are the police. The Avengers are busy globe-trotting and stopping global threat (alien invasions and so forth), S.H.I.E.L.D. are always one day away from crumbling apart from within these days (maybe, pre-Avengers, they would have gotten involved in the Netflix-level stuff but not now when they're always busy rounding up Inhumans or trying to not be disbanded...again), so it's up to the Defenders to take care of business in their own little corner.

It's not even that hard to believe; Spider-Man didn't run into the Avengers every single issue and the cross-over between all the many, many New York superheroes wasn't that common. They're all doing their own thing and, often, there's some overlap. Like, people moaned and *****ed about the lack of the Avengers in Iron man 3, Thor: The Dark World, and Captain America: The Winter Soldier but, when you watch those movies, it's pretty clear that the events from all three overlap with each other to explain why each character is kind of busy with their own stuff and can't just dash over to London at the drop of a hat.

While I don't necessarily like how the television stuff is never referenced in the movies, it's not that unbelievable that they're still all connected. Also, while it would be nice to see the Avengers tower, is it really that big a deal? I never found myself really looking out for it; being a Brit I just assumed that you can't see it from where they are in the series. It's not that uncommon; if I remember right, there's a scene in Spider-Man where Peter's sat on top of a building and, in the commentary, Sam Raimi talks about how they mashed together he skyline to create an impossible panoramic view for the audience. Or, how about the trains in Spider-Man 2; those aren't in new York but I don't recall anyone flipped out too hard over that.

I completely agree. Spider-man Homecoming does a great job at demonstrating the different jurisdictions (for lack of a better word) for these characters. He literally comes across people selling and using weapons made from alien technology and Iron Man does assemble the Avengers but notifies the FBI. Not every little incident catches the attention of Avengers, sometimes there are forces keeping them and others in the dark, or maybe they were busy doing something else.

During Iron Man 3 The Avengers were only a worst case scenario for SHIELD to call upon so the members were all scattered. Still we know AIM had influence with higher level officials at the government, we can also assume that maybe Hydra would want AIM to succeed not only to acquire the Extremist formula but the death of the President at the hands of a terrorist organization would only increase support for Project Insight. Banner probably though the Hulk would not be useful and Cap, Nat, and Clint could have all been on a mission. Similar for Thor 2 except the crisis only lasted so long, we know SHIELD was present for the clean up and we can guess that mobilizing takes a little wild so they could have shown up after the crisis was over. Also Tony had blown up his armor and had heart surgery which would require some recovery time.

Between Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron we Know the Avengers had officially reassembled and been going after Hydra after Age of Ultron CW indicated they were focusing on international terrorists like Crossbones. So we can assume they've been busy with either their own missions or training. Plus even heroes need vacation time. The point is it's implied they're busy and proactive. And after the Accords we can surmise that the Avengers cannot act unless it's an emergency or have the council's approval.

Now we don't know how the timeline matches up for the netflix shows, all we know for sure is that it starts sometime after the first Avengers movie. But throughout we can assume that some of it takes place before the Avengers were reassembled and doing their own things, and when they were assemble but having a busy schedule. Still neflix does a great job telling stories that wouldn't call for the Avengers to show up as most of it happens in the shadows:

In Daredevil - Gang violence and some bombings aren't big enough to require Avengers to investigate, that's a matter for the NYPD and FBI

Jessica Jones - The bulk of the show is just trying to prove a mind controller exists and highlights how difficult it is. There's probably millions of tips in this universe that gets ignored by people over reacting. Avengers would not take notice of it.

Luke Cage - Okay this is one of the few times I will say that Avengers should have been called in. When a super human is suspected of multiple murders and had assaulted officers while resisting arrest it's time to call in at least one of the Avengers (or SHIELD if it takes place before WS) to help in apprehension. The story line happens over a period of days so you couldn't quite justify that were on a mission for that long. They could have said the NYPD wanted to prove themselves effective or didn't want the Avengers to wreck the neighborhood (as Hulk had done). But they didn't indicate that so...

Iron Fist - The whole plot unfolds in the shadows, the only thing public was Danny evading police after being implication in a drug trafficking operation. No need for Avengers.

The Defenders - Earthquake did some damage but nothing earth shattering, would have been nice to hear report of Avengers helping during the quake and recovery.

The Punisher - Gang violence, matter for the FBI and Police (also CIA but that's covert and the Avengers wouldn't know about it)

Now the ABC series (AoS and Inhumans) don't do a great job about keeping it in the shadows even though both are suppose to be dealing with hidden organizations. The season 3 finale of AoS in particular was a "CALL THE AVENGERS!" kind of moment. Still they are a Non-official covert agency who don't have the authority to call in the Avengers only feed them info through back channels.

Inhumans suck.

For why the movies don't reference the shows, aside from them not being aware of everything going on, is scheduling. By the time a movie has wrapped production and entered post production a show could have just started pre-production, not to mention they are created by two entirely different departments. Trying to reference something that hasn't been created yet is pretty tough. Plus movies have much more limited screen time and you have to consider why would a character mention Luke Cage in this scene? What does saying Inhumans do for the themes of this movie. Would it go over too many people's heads? Is it worth devoting screen time to?

And also We don't know when The defenders takes place in the MCU all of their shows (even some future seasons) could have occurred before Civil War, meaning the movies can't reference stuff that not only just begun production but hasn't even thought of yet.

Personally I'm really glad most of these shows and movies are focused on building their own stories than relying solely on references and easter eggs.
 
Tony kind of explains in Spiderman: Homecoming that the Avengers leave a wide berth and let the FBI handle the non world threatening stuff.

Sure the Hand were very dangerous in Defenders, but the Avengers weren't aware of their activities.
 
The big time Avengers are going to have threats like Thanos, Ultron and Loki to deal with. That doesn't mean lesser villains stop doing stuff around all that.
 
The actions of the Avengers have had a trickle down effect, enabling criminals to get access to more dangerous weapons and deepen their footholds within the criminal underworld.
 
What I wonder is will the Avengers be aware of the Defenders at any point between IW and A4.
 
The actions of the Avengers have had a trickle down effect, enabling criminals to get access to more dangerous weapons and deepen their footholds within the criminal underworld.
I think Spider-man Homecoming has a perfect plot for Luke Cage to pick up on
 
The lack of Avengers popping into the Netflix shows and such doesn't really bother me. The Avengers exist for larger threats, and the Netflix stuff are smaller stories. Honestly, I think this should bother people less. Yes, Spider-Man pops up in issues of Daredevil sometimes. Keyword, SOMETIMES! Daredevil has had hundreds of issues. Spidey was in maybe 20. So no and so forth. This is why stuff like the Avengers not helping in Iron Man 3 doesn't bother me. It's an Iron Man story, not an Avengers one. Same here.
 
Iron Man 3, sure. Though, on an unrelated note, I do find it to be somewhat of an issue in something like Winter Soldier since it's about the entire organization of SHIELD, which was at least a major institution of the MCU. I think at the very least, Clint or Tony could appear, given that Tony is name dropped a few times.
 
In hindsight, Loeb should have set the Netflix street level shows in the period before Iron Man. Crossing over with the movies was always going to be a problem, even before the split between Marvel Studios and Marvel Entertainment.

But putting them in their own time period - the 70s make the most sense - would have allowed the shows to be actually part of the MCU without fans wondering why no one in the movies mentions the super powered folks roaming around NYC or why the Defenders don't bother to show up when the crap hits the fan.
 
In hindsight, Loeb should have set the Netflix street level shows in the period before Iron Man. Crossing over with the movies was always going to be a problem, even before the split between Marvel Studios and Marvel Entertainment.

But putting them in their own time period - the 70s make the most sense - would have allowed the shows to be actually part of the MCU without fans wondering why no one in the movies mentions the super powered folks roaming around NYC or why the Defenders don't bother to show up when the crap hits the fan.

honestly its not that big a deal and they were fine setting it in present day. I bet the vast majority of the people watching these shwos arent obsessing over why the Avengers arent included
 
Iron Man 3, sure. Though, on an unrelated note, I do find it to be somewhat of an issue in something like Winter Soldier since it's about the entire organization of SHIELD, which was at least a major institution of the MCU. I think at the very least, Clint or Tony could appear, given that Tony is name dropped a few times.

Getting cameos is cool, but at the end of the day TWS was a Captain America story. Not an Avengers one. It's the simplest reason why everyone is not there, and it doesn't bother me. Happens in comics all the time.
 
But it's a bit more than a singular character story, at least I feel. Yes, Steve is the protagonist and everyone else's arc serves him as that main character, but it's about the entire organization of SHIELD. If this was about Captain America fighting some one-off supervillain and it's his story, I get that, but it's not that isolated. The Russos made a huge change to the entire MCU by taking down SHIELD.

In this case, they're having their cake and eating it too in saying this is Cap's story. We can suspend our disbelief on wondering where others are- though in a situation like this, Stark or Barton would make sense given their history with SHIELD- but the issue with Winter Soldier becomes even more glaring when you take Civil War into account- the third installment OF Cap's story- and have almost every major player of the MCU and make reference to missing players like Hulk and Thor.
 
But it's a bit more than a singular character story, at least I feel. Yes, Steve is the protagonist and everyone else's arc serves him as that main character, but it's about the entire organization of SHIELD. If this was about Captain America fighting some one-off supervillain and it's his story, I get that, but it's not that isolated. The Russos made a huge change to the entire MCU by taking down SHIELD.

In this case, they're having their cake and eating it too in saying this is Cap's story. We can suspend our disbelief on wondering where others are- though in a situation like this, Stark or Barton would make sense given their history with SHIELD- but the issue with Winter Soldier becomes even more glaring when you take Civil War into account- the third installment OF Cap's story- and have almost every major player of the MCU and make reference to missing players like Hulk and Thor.

In Iron Man 3, Tony is believed DEAD and the President is kidnapped. Still, no Avengers getting involved. Seems odd, right? But, that doesn't bother me because it was an Iron Man movie and I get that not everyone is going to be in it. With Defenders, a fair amount of what they were fighting was stuff not really in the open or that would get the Avengers' attention up until the when the climax is actively happening. The fact no one shows up really doesn't bother me, that and if the Avengers DID show up, the Hand would have been beat in 5 minutes. If they did 7 epidoes of build up only to end it with Hulk smashing Elektra like he did Loki, people would have been mad.

Just because you technically CAN include cameos and characters into stuff doesn't mean that you always SHOULD. Further, if we get bogged down by needing to explain where the Avengers or where someone else is every 5 seconds, then we don't have a show and we're focusing on the wrong thing, which should be the characters actively involved, their arcs, their storylines, and where you're taking the audience.
 
That's not really my point. I'm not talking about singular character stories- I'm talking about a story that's built around the entire SHIELD organization that's been a focal point of this universe since Iron Man. Arguably a much bigger deal than Stark going off the grid.
 
That's not really my point. I'm not talking about singular character stories- I'm talking about a story that's built around the entire SHIELD organization that's been a focal point of this universe since Iron Man. Arguably a much bigger deal than Stark going off the grid.

In regard to TWS, the entire operation was taking place in the shadows in a limited time window, and Cap was on the run. Surely a guy like Stark would have been being watched, also. Plus, to get Stark, he would have to go from DC to Washington and back in a short period of time. Simply, even within the story confines, there was no time to get Stark involved and within the story itself, no one but Cap knew what was happening (as far as Avengers go). Therefore, it made sense no one got involved.
 
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Other than saying "Let it go", I'll say this:

I've been reading comics for 30+ years now. Not every hero shows up in every one else's book.

The Avengers didn't show up in every X-Men book or even ever Cap/Iron Man/Thor book.

The Defenders stuff is happening in the shadows and away from the Avengers POV. On the other hand, DD, JJ, LC and IF have smaller fish to fry than the stuff the Avengers tackle.

Simple.

Not at all. I get that you know how comic book stories work, but with the way they've set up how the MCU's stories work, they've shown that Tony has an eye on superhero stuff that happens in Manhattan.

That's how he tracked Spiderman down. So going by MCU logic, he should have knowledge and intel on Daredevil, Stick, the Hand, Purple Man, Chaste, Elektra, Jessica Jones, and Luke Cage. There's no good reason for him to not know what is going on with the Defenders.

Any explanation for how he doesn't or couldn't know about the Defenders, is just fans trying to come up with explanations but they're all fallible because Civil War has shown that Stark keeps tabs on New York. So as long as they keep Netflix MCU separate from the rest, it's building more and more plot holes as far as I'm concerned as a viewer
 
Not at all. I get that you know how comic book stories work, but with the way they've set up how the MCU's stories work, they've shown that Tony has an eye on superhero stuff that happens in Manhattan.

That's how he tracked Spiderman down. So going by MCU logic, he should have knowledge and intel on Daredevil, Stick, the Hand, Purple Man, Chaste, Elektra, Jessica Jones, and Luke Cage. There's no good reason for him to not know what is going on with the Defenders.

Any explanation for how he doesn't or couldn't know about the Defenders, is just fans trying to come up with explanations but they're all fallible because Civil War has shown that Stark keeps tabs on New York. So as long as they keep Netflix MCU separate from the rest, it's building more and more plot holes as far as I'm concerned as a viewer

Well, there's nothing to suggest that Daredevil is anything more than a guy in a costume who is insanely good at martial arts. Jessica Jones wouldn't want anything to do with a fight over ideology.

As for Kilgrave, no one except his victims (who have no reason to talk about their problems) knew he even existed until he made Hope kill her parents, and even then, it's clear no one takes Hope's claims seriously. Luke Cage is an escaped fugitive who is laying low on purpose.
 
^ first of all before I respond to you, let me point out that, there's no reason for Tony not to find out about these superheroes even based off anything you said...Tony found about Peter when no one else possibly could so obviously, his intel is advanced.
Well, there's nothing to suggest that Daredevil is anything more than a guy in a costume who is insanely good at martial arts.

Yeah, and? He's at least as good at fighting as black widow and scarlet witch and the devil of hell's kitchen has been making headlines in NYC...

...so, why would Tony not know about him?
Jessica Jones wouldn't want anything to do with a fight over ideology.
She didn't want anything to do with being part of a team in Defenders either but she had a change of heart when the city was at stake.

Harlem's police precinct is aware she's superhuman, so...why would Tony not know about her?

As for Kilgrave, no one except his victims (who have no reason to talk about their problems) knew he even existed until he made Hope kill her parents, and even then, it's clear no one takes Hope's claims seriously.
That was before and during the events of JJ season 1. Since then there are people who are aware of what he's done in terms of mind control, so...why wouldn't Tony know about him?
Luke Cage is an escaped fugitive who is laying low on purpose.
That was before and during the events of Luke Cage season 1. Since then he's become a vigilante and everyone in Harlem knows who he is. And even if he was still a fugitive there were people who were aware of what he was so...why wouldn't Tony know about him?
 
^ first of all before I respond to you, let me point out that, there's no reason for Tony not to find out about these superheroes even based off anything you said...Tony found about Peter when no one else possibly could so obviously, his intel is advanced.

Yeah, and? He's at least as good at fighting as black widow and scarlet witch and the devil of hell's kitchen has been making headlines in NYC...

...so, why would Tony not know about him?She didn't want anything to do with being part of a team in Defenders either but she had a change of heart when the city was at stake.

Harlem's police precinct is aware she's superhuman, so...why would Tony not know about her?

That was before and during the events of JJ season 1. Since then there are people who are aware of what he's done in terms of mind control, so...why wouldn't Tony know about him?That was before and during the events of Luke Cage season 1. Since then he's become a vigilante and everyone in Harlem knows who he is. And even if he was still a fugitive there were people who were aware of what he was so...why wouldn't Tony know about him?

What exactly is your point? Why is Stark not recruiting these guys for the Avengers? Maybe he does know about them but doesn't think that they're Avengers material or really cares about them overall. These people are neighborhood heroes, the Avengers are global. They're small fish.
 
What exactly is your point? Why is Stark not recruiting these guys for the Avengers? Maybe he does know about them but doesn't think that they're Avengers material or really cares about them overall. These people are neighborhood heroes, the Avengers are global. They're small fish.
if they're small fish then spiderman is small fish. my point is simply that there's no reason Tony shouldn't know about them just like how he knew about Spiderman.
 
if they're small fish then spiderman is small fish. my point is simply that there's no reason Tony shouldn't know about them just like how he knew about Spiderman.

Still means nothing even if he did know about them. Peter is a kid he can groom, you think Luke Cage or Jessica Jones are going to be easily groomed, or look good for the public image? Same for Daredevil.
 
Still means nothing even if he did know about them. Peter is a kid he can groom, you think Luke Cage or Jessica Jones are going to be easily groomed, or look good for the public image? Same for Daredevil.
It doesn't mean nothing given how Stark wasn't looking for a kid to groom he was looking for other folks with superpower. There were several others in NYC that Stark ignored and to me that is a plot hole
 
It doesn't mean nothing given how Stark wasn't looking for a kid to groom he was looking for other folks with superpower. There were several others in NYC that Stark ignored and to me that is a plot hole

Because Stark has to tell the audience every hero he knows about or invite them to the Avengers?

This is a weak argument, I am sorry.
 

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