Sequels Thread for VILLANS in Spider-Man 4 and 5 (Don't make any more!)

[The Shredder]

Which was the same paper from SM2, not a new one >_>

MmmHmmm ... I love that there was a conscious decision to include it in Spider-Man 3 as well.

 

[Venom'sDad]

The thing with that is, with a S6 story, some of the villains don't need a lot of fleshing out to do.

Hypothetical Example (pointing that out so u guys know )

Doc Ock (leader, gets the most screentime)
Sandman (blackmailed by Ock, his story continues from SM3)
Chameleon (assists Doc Ock in getting a team set up and wouldn't be opposed to backstabbing the other members including Ock)
Vulture (if it goes my way, his story continues from SM5 with an upgraded suit)
Rhino
Shocker

Shocker and Rhino would need no backstory whatsover, their thugs who had run ins with Spidey in the past and get their equipment and powers from Vulture and Chameleon(who we would learn are old partners and Chameleon has history with Spidey because of Kraven). Doc Ock comes to Chameleon and Vulture with the idea of making a team for his purposes. Ock forces Sandman to join or else he kills his daughter. He also gives him false hope of having a cure for her sickness. When finding this out, Sandman will go against the S6 and assist Spidey in the end.



Which was the same paper from SM2, not a new one >_>

OK, 1st you know why I dislike bringing Ock back to lead the Six. However, understand, although Sandman's arc from SM3 in some ways may fit well with with an arc involving the Six; I still very much dislike him being a member of that group, essentially for the same reason I dislike Ock being brought back, It completely defeat the whole purpose or theme of SM3.

Sandy & Spidey already forgave each other, even shed a tear or two because of it, and Spidey let him go because he understood Sandy plight(he was doing it for his sick daughter and he didn't ask for this).

Come on guys, this is the problem that Sam has created, by making every villain thus far sympathetic, ties with Peter, and really not true villains. So now you want a person who is not a true villain or leader to convince another person who didn't ask for this to team up against the very person who brought humanity back to them with others who I suppose will be villains(IDK), in a group called the "SINISTER" Six.

Good luck, but you guy are asking for the ruin of Sony and the franchise.

 

[American_Hobo]

OK, 1st you know why I dislike bringing Ock back to lead the Six. However, understand, although Sandman's arc from SM3 in some ways may fit well with with an arc involving the Six; I still very much dislike him being a member of that group, essentially for the same reason I dislike Ock being brought back, It completely defeat the whole purpose or theme of SM3.

Sandy & Spidey already forgave each other, even shed a tear or two because of it, and Spidey let him go because he understood Sandy plight(he was doing it for his sick daughter and he didn't ask for this).

Come on guys, this is the problem that Sam has created, by making every villain thus far sympathetic, ties with Peter, and really not true villains. So now you want a person who is not a true villain or leader to convince another person who didn't ask for this to team up against the very person who brought humanity back to them with others who I suppose will be villains(IDK), in a group called the "SINISTER" Six.

Good luck, but you guy are asking for the ruin of Sony and the franchise.

this is exactly why i think sinister six won't work on SM movies..

 

[Venom 1988]

OK, 1st you know why I dislike bringing Ock back to lead the Six.

I know thats why I said Hypothetical example, cuz I got annoyed of writing Blank Leader all the time in my message.

However, understand, although Sandman's arc from SM3 in some ways may fit well with with an arc involving the Six; I still very much dislike him being a member of that group, essentially for the same reason I dislike Ock being brought back, It completely defeat the whole purpose or theme of SM3.

Sandy & Spidey already forgave each other, even shed a tear or two because of it, and Spidey let him go because he understood Sandy plight(he was doing it for his sick daughter and he didn't ask for this).

Yea and its not the first time Sandman went back and forth between and bad in the comics. And it wouldn't defeat the purpose of SM3 cuz Sandman doesn't want to be a criminal again! He just wants his daughter to live.

And the whole blackmail thing would definitly work,(ripping that from the comics as well). In the movie, Sadman didn't seem like the brightest of guys. He has Ock(or BLANK LEADER ), an experienced scientist, come up to him and tell him he has a cure for his daughter and will give it to her if Sandman joins his team. If not, Ock will kill his daughther in a most brutal violant death. Which do you think Sandman is going to pick? He'll do anything to save his daughter, even if that means goign back to crime. Hell with confronting Spidey early on, hes probably going to be hesitant to fight him anyway.

Come on guys, this is the problem that Sam has created, by making every villain thus far sympathetic, ties with Peter, and really not true villains. So now you want a person who is not a true villain or leader to convince another person who didn't ask for this to team up against the very person who brought humanity back to them with others who I suppose will be villains(IDK), in a group called the "SINISTER" Six.

Good luck, but you guy are asking for the ruin of Sony and the franchise.

Christ for the last time, I'm only using Ock for a freaking example. And you know what? If it makes for a great movie, I really don't give a ***** if it defeats the purpose of Ock in SM2. Honestly I think making Sandman Uncle Ben's killer is worse than brining Ock from the grave.From my example idea, it seems to be the only flaw in there and your picking the hell out of it.

And whose to say they team up for revenge on Spidey? They can do a multitude of things and not the one reason they came to gether in the comics. Also, Sinister Six bad name for you? How about Sinner Six or The Six or maybe they don't have a god damn name at all?

Christ some of you people need to think out the box a little bit. :

 

[Venom'sDad]

Yea and its not the first time Sandman went back and forth between and bad in the comics. And it wouldn't defeat the purpose of SM3 cuz Sandman doesn't want to be a criminal again! He just wants his daughter to live.

Exactly!

And the whole blackmail thing would definitly work,(ripping that from the comics as well). In the movie, Sadman didn't seem like the brightest of guys. He has Ock(or BLANK LEADER ), an experienced scientist, come up to him and tell him he has a cure for his daughter and will give it to her if Sandman joins his team. If not, Ock will kill his daughther in a most brutal violant death. Which do you think Sandman is going to pick? He'll do anything to save his daughter, even if that means goign back to crime. Hell with confronting Spidey early on, hes probably going to be hesitant to fight him anyway.

I know the story from the comics, which btw involved Venom, but hell, lets not go there. Anyway, the problem is, other than Spidey's origin, these film are not really based off the comics; they are their own entity. So you just can't all of a sudden want to base it off the comics... which does not jive very well with Sam's adaptions. Conflicting personalities of characterization.

BTW, what exactly would be DocOck's motivation for forming a team anyway(like he can't do whatever it is himself) or is its the Tentacles motivation.... cause Octavius, the man, ended SM2 being a stand up guy.

Anyway, Sandy can lift nearly 100Tons, so I would think if DocOck threaten his daughter, he better do it on the phone; otherwise, I see someone becoming Cheeze-Wizz.

Christ some of you people need to think out the box a little bit. :

Ok, serenity now, I'm just making points I think are valid.

 

[Venom 1988]

I know the story from the comics, which btw involved Venom, but hell, lets not go there.

Venom? No your thinking of something else, I'm thinking of Return of the Sinister Six

Anyway, the problem is, other than Spidey's origin, these film are not really based off the comics; they are their own entity. So you just can't all of a sudden want to base it off the comics... which does not jive very well with Sam's adaptions. Conflicting personalities of characterization.

Of course there based off the comics, its just what extent. And I'm not saying use the exact personality from the comics, you strive off of how he was in SM2 and twist it in someway that doesn't ignore how he was in the 2nd movie. Brain damage anyone?

BTW, what exactly would be DocOck's motivation for forming a team anyway(like he can't do whatever it is himself) or is its the Tentacles motivation.... cause Octavius, the man, ended SM2 being a stand up guy.

Again Brain Damage can go a long way from making a stand up guy as you said to an insane bastard. His motivations? Well lets see we have a brillaint, yet insane man...hmmm Oh I don't know lots of things. I would treat a movie version of S6 as a terriost group. At first it seems they just want money, but only known to Ock he can posion New York, let off an atomic bomb, or HELL pissing in the water reserve. Theres lots of things for him to do.

Anyway, Sandy can lift nearly 100Tons, so I would think if DocOck threaten his daughter, he better do it on the phone; otherwise, I see someone becoming Cheeze-Wizz.

Wow you underestimate Doc Ock don't ya? I can think of a lot of ways, for now I'll just go with the simple and cheap particle gun that freeze Sandman into a glass statue

 

[Venom'sDad]

Venom? No your thinking of something else, I'm thinking of Return of the Sinister Six

Of course there based off the comics, its just what extent. And I'm not saying use the exact personality from the comics, you strive off of how he was in SM2 and twist it in someway that doesn't ignore how he was in the 2nd movie. Brain damage anyone?

Again Brain Damage can go a long way from making a stand up guy as you said to an insane bastard. His motivations? Well lets see we have a brillaint, yet insane man...hmmm Oh I don't know lots of things. I would treat a movie version of S6 as a terriost group. At first it seems they just want money, but only known to Ock he can posion New York, let off an atomic bomb, or HELL pissing in the water reserve. Theres lots of things for him to do.

Wow you underestimate Doc Ock don't ya? I can think of a lot of ways, for now I'll just go with the simple and cheap particle gun that freeze Sandman into a glass statue

You right, I am thinking of something else, I believe the Sinister 7 or Sinister 12.

Brain Damage is once again sympathetic and lazy writing and DocOck essence is still missing in all of this.

As far as DocOck threats, I don't think he would see it coming when Sandy quickly snatch his arse and squeeze the living **** out of him. If they were already at odds, Ock may, and I stress may, have a chance to soundly defend himself.... but not when Sandy suddenly snap because of this silly threat.

 

[Visionary]

I DON'T WANT more GOBLINS. I've said that so many times. what I said in my last post is that if I had to choose between Ock and Goblin, then I'd have to go with Goblin, because he is really evil.Spidey won't come after Ock to kick his ass. first thing he'd do is wonder how is Ock alive, then try to have a talk with him. and Ock is not a villain anymore.

Then let Spidey wonder about Ock's death and how he survived, that part is a keeper. However, if they use something like my idea, it would be all explained in the Daily Bugle how he survived. And of course Spider-Man will come after him, the moment he's doing something that puts people in danger. You don't think they'll write him back into the movie and he isn't doing anything to cause others harm, do you?

jeez...how hard is that to understand, guys?
yeah, but he won't stay unconscious all the time. it's a bad excuse. like I already said in other post...

Who the hell said he'll stay unconscious? I was refering to my idea about after Ock is revived, and him being weakened from the experience, that's when I said the tentacles would protect him, and see the divers/police as a threat.

they worked with amnesia already. and I'm totally sure that Ock would regain his conscience in the final and turn good again. that'd be cheesy. there's just no way that Ock can come back and do evil things without ruining something or without a lame excuse, as there's no way Venom can come back from the dead. you guys trying to find a way to make Ock bad reminds me of those fanboys trying to convince everyone that Venom was alive or how he could come back, coming with that "cab driver" theory.
come on Vis, I thought you'd be the one who most would be using common sense about it.

Who the hell said anything about amnesia, I said BRAIN DAMAGE, people can have brain damage and still remember everything? I'm saying that the brain damage can be apart of the reason why he now has a vile temper and a superior complex, making him a bit different from that of SM2.

And one would think that you would use common sense in taking my "Cab Driver's Bones" theory as humor, no one is more happy than me that Venom is dead. He's gonna die a second time if they're stupid enough to release his spin-off movie.

and there's that too. bringing him back would ruin that, which was perfect.

You're forgetting one thing, it was Sam Raimi himself who said DOC OCK ISN'T DEAD! As did Avi Arad. Obviously, Raimi doesn't think it'll ruin anything. Personally, neither do I, I think it'll provide a chance to make an even better (or more badass) Doctor Octopus, as he was the highlight of the franchise thus far to most critics.

 

[Visionary]

Brain Damage is once again sympathetic and lazy writing and Doc Ock essence is still missing in all of this.

Tell that to Stan Lee, he wrote it. I just borrowed it.

 

[Spider-Man '92]

I hate the idea of the Sinister Six, it wouldn't work for this series. You can't bring Ock back guys, for God's sake, by now in the story it's been two years since he sunk to the bottom of the river, I doubt he'd still be alive. And crap like the arms coming back to life is just nonsense. Doc Ock's death was great, and we should leave it at that.

Sandman, no way is he coming back. I too can see that there's a way of bringing him back, but there's no need. His "disappearance" was great, and he should be left alone for the remaining of this series.

Venom? Yeah, he was a member at one point, but he's gone, 'nuff said.

All in all, the S6 won't work. In my opinion, it would only work if you were to start the series over, and make a trilogy of trilogies, building up to a Sinister Six film for Spidey 9. That's stretching it, I know, but if you want to make good movies along the way, that's how it has to be.

 

[Jick]

Then let Spidey wonder about Ock's death and how he survived, that part is a keeper. However, if they use something like my idea, it would be all explained in the Daily Bugle how he survived. And of course Spider-Man will come after him, the moment he's doing something that puts people in danger. You don't think they'll write him back into the movie and he isn't doing anything to cause others harm, do you?

I would hope that they wouldn't write it at all.

Who the hell said he'll stay unconscious? I was refering to my idea about after Ock is revived, and him being weakened from the experience, that's when I said the tentacles would protect him, and see the divers/police as a threat.

go read my sentece again and try to interpret it this time. you said he has control over his tentacles, but the same would go berserk while he is unconscious. I simply said that he won't stay unconscious all the time, so he'll have control of the tentacles for the most part, which he will not use for criminal purposes.

Who the hell said anything about amnesia, I said BRAIN DAMAGE, people can have brain damage and still remember everything? I'm saying that the brain damage can be apart of the reason why he now has a vile temper and a superior complex, making him a bit different from that of SM2.

that's famboyism talking, and not common sense. this may have worked or not back there with Stan. but not now. that's a stupid excuse to have him doing bad things. why he would do that? "oh, I have brain damage and I have tentacles that came from somewhere. I'll destroy something." the public is not stupid. and like I said before, I'm sure that he'll remember everything in the final act and will turn good again. been there, done that.
I thought you wanted a more mature movie.

And one would think that you would use common sense in taking my "Cab Driver's Bones" theory as humor

so it was you?
huh...I didn't know. what a coincidence. I thought it was someone else from the other boards...

You're forgetting one thing, it was Sam Raimi himself who said DOC OCK ISN'T DEAD!

and you're forgetting that SAM RAIMI ISN'T IN CHARGE OF ANYTHING ANYMORE. we don't even know if he will come back. it's just a possibility. it is VANDERBILT who'll decide what to use in the story, it is VANDERBILT who'll decide what characters from the comics will be there. it's VANDERBILT who'll decide what the villain(s) will do. Sam can't say nothing. Vanderbilt came with an idea, and the producers accepted. if he is the smart guy who wrote the super intelligent Zodiac, he'll know well what to do.
and...besides all of that...Ock wasn't even fighting his way back to the surface after he drowned. he didn't want. his life is over. he has nothing else to do. nothing.
let's leave my favorite villain of this movies alone without coming with stupid reasons just to bring him back. there's many other villains waiting to be used.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Molina is quite old and might not come back...

He's only in his mid fifties...

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Originally Posted by FaT_tONle
Molina is quite old and might not come back...

As CaptainStacy said, he's only in his mid forties and he loved playing Doc Ock, so I highly doubt he wouldn't want to come back.

 

[Visionary]

I would hope that they wouldn't write it at all.

Tell that to the ones (Raimi/Avi Arad) who said Doc Ock isn't dead.

go read my sentece again and try to interpret it this time. you said he has control over his tentacles, but the same would go berserk while he is unconscious. I simply said that he won't stay unconscious all the time, so he'll have control of the tentacles for the most part, which he will not use for criminal purposes.

And that's where the brain damage idea comes in, this time around, he'll have control over the tentacles, but good is something he will not be. Which is a major part of being a villain that seems lost on the filmmakers.

that's famboyism talking, and not common sense. this may have worked or not back there with Stan. but not now. that's a stupid excuse to have him doing bad things. why he would do that? "oh, I have brain damage and I have tentacles that came from somewhere. I'll destroy something." the public is not stupid. and like I said before, I'm sure that he'll remember everything in the final act and will turn good again. been there, done that.
I thought you wanted a more mature movie.

So what do you think the public (the audience) would do if it were written that Doc Ock has brain damage from being submerged under-water for too long? This can happen in real life. That would take nothing away from the mature film that I asked for.

Peter crying like a little b:tch every six seconds, MJ being kidnapped by every villain, aduts shining light in other adults faces at college, Peter having a connection to all of the villains and dancing like a bufoon is the type of immature writing that I don't want.

so it was you?
huh...I didn't know. what a coincidence. I thought it was someone else from the other boards...

Yeah, believe it or not, I joke too. But I'm not joking about bringing Doc Ock back. Although if they don't, I won't lose any sleep over it.

and you're forgetting that SAM RAIMI ISN'T IN CHARGE OF ANYTHING ANYMORE. we don't even know if he will come back. it's just a possibility. it is VANDERBILT who'll decide what to use in the story, it is VANDERBILT who'll decide what characters from the comics will be there. it's VANDERBILT who'll decide what the villain(s) will do. Sam can't say nothing. Vanderbilt came with an idea, and the producers accepted. if he is the smart guy who wrote the super intelligent Zodiac, he'll know well what to do.

I'd like to think that, really I do, but Sam Raimi has interfered with every other writer that Sony has brought on board of these films. Do you really think it'll stop with the fourth movie, I don't? Like all scripts, anything can easily be taking out or put in, even in Vanderbilt's script. Really, do you not think Raimi is coming back to this franchise, I'd love to see another director take the helm, but being that Tobey is back, Raimi is without a doubt back too. I don't think Tobey would have taken the job, if Raimi was not attached as director.

and...besides all of that...Ock wasn't even fighting his way back to the surface after he drowned. he didn't want. his life is over. he has nothing else to do. nothing.

WTF does that have to do with anything? In the case of someone being underwater for a couple of minutes, even if they're drowning, a lifeless looking body can still be revived.

let's leave my favorite villain of this movies alone without coming with stupid reasons just to bring him back. there's many other villains waiting to be used.

He's my favorite too, but WE are not in control over whether Doc Ock comes back or not. And if Sony had to go with what "WE" want or what "RAIMI" wants, I'm going to say they'll go with the one who has directed their multi-billion dollar franchise. Of course, that's just a guess.

 

[Jick]

So what do you think the public (the audience) would do if it were written that Doc Ock has brain damage from being submerged under-water for too long? This can happen in real life.

ok. let's do this way then. try to imagine Ock for too long underwater. to suffer the "brain damage", he'd have to be awaken to experience the trauma, or how the would he suffer from anything if he is uncounscious? and even so...even if he comes back with an unlikely "brain damage", he probably would be pretty much schizophrenic. he'd have visions and hallucinations about when he was underwater. take Angel for instance, from the Vampire Slayer series. it's pretty much something like this. or One Tree Hill, too. guy who went through the same problem. it isn't that simple: Ock simply comes back, with a brain damage, and goes berserk. no

WTF does that have to do with anything? In the case of someone being underwater for a couple of minutes, even if they're drowning, a lifeless looking body can still be revived.

what I said is that he wasn't fighting his way back to the surface. he wasn't struggling. he just let it go. he knew it was over, man.

 

[Visionary]

ok. let's do this way then. try to imagine Ock for too long underwater. to suffer the "brain damage", he'd have to be awaken to experience the trauma, or how the would he suffer from anything if he is uncounscious? and even so...even if he comes back with an unlikely "brain damage", he probably would be pretty much schizophrenic. he'd have visions and hallucinations about when he was underwater. take Angel for instance, from the Vampire Slayer series. it's pretty much something like this. or One Tree Hill, too. guy who went through the same problem. it isn't that simple: Ock simply comes back, with a brain damage, and goes berserk. no

What the hell, you lost me with Angel and One Tree Hill?

Anyway, it is pretty simple. And Ock won't go berserk, he'll be cool and calm and will remember everything. The brain damage motif will only be hinted at once, it won't be long and drawn out or overly explained. But the auduience will know that something is different about him, we'll see it in his vile but calm behavior and his superior complex, that's the trauma that will be experienced.

what I said is that he wasn't fighting his way back to the surface. he wasn't struggling. he just let it go. he knew it was over, man.

I understand exactly what you're saying, but that could be caused by him simply blacking out, by lack of oxygen getting to his brain, which by the way can cause brain damage. However, Doc Ock will have complete control of his tentacles, same intelligence, but this Ock should be a lot more vile than the one in SM2.

I'm telling you, it's not hard at all to bring this character back, personally, I think he'll be better the second time around. As long as he's not sympathetic or good hearted, if he is, then I don't want him to return either. I like villains to be villains.

 

[Venom'sDad]

that's famboyism talking, and not common sense. this may have worked or not back there with Stan. but not now. that's a stupid excuse to have him doing bad things. why he would do that? "oh, I have brain damage and I have tentacles that came from somewhere. I'll destroy something." the public is not stupid. and like I said before, I'm sure that he'll remember everything in the final act and will turn good again. been there, done that.

I thought you wanted a more mature movie.

Yeah Exactly, I thought visionary wanted a more mature movie as well. This is very disappointing that he would be so conflicted in his views, because vision and I have similar opinions on Sam's ability to deliver fluff; but this idea visionary is spouting seems to be asking for more fluff and cheap parlor tricks in writing. Visionary, I am completely at a loss to what exactly you want for a Spiderman film.

On one hand you want blood and gore, on another, you want cheap parlor tricks. On one hand you want mature themes, on another, you one famboyism.

You do see how conflicting that is..... right?

 

[Hectorminator]

To everyone that's saying you could never do a Sinister Six in the movies and there's no way you could bring back Doc Ock or whatever, YOU'RE WRONG.

It's really all dependent on good or bad writing.

Granted, there are a lot of plot points blocking bringing back characters or forming a Sinister Six, it can be done.

The main thing is that if you do bring back Doc Ock, it doesn't take anything away form Spider-Man 2. That movie's been made, go back and watch it, it's still awesome. The idea is that the story progresses and evolves, characters evolve, and just like in comics and other forms of serialized storytelling, characters can come back and it's still fresh and interesting. There's still a story to tell, otherwise they shouldn't bring them back.

Personally, I loved Doc Ock in part 2 and I would love to see him come back. Alfred Molina owns. My idea involves also bringing back Norman Osborn, because Willem Dafoe is the freaking man, and I think it's more believable that Osborn could still be alive and he would still be evil, as opposed to Octavius being evil on his own if he were to come back.

To have Doc Ock be a part of the Sinister Six, make Osborn be the one who saves him and recruits him and keeps his existence hidden for years. He brainwashes him (with either drugs or nanotechnology--see opening lines from Spider-Man 1) and makes Octavius believe Spider-Man was the cause for the accident and Spidey took all the credit for saving New York. Octavius would be Osborn's secret scientist, upgrading guys like the Vulture and stuff. And at the end of Spider-Man 6, Doc Ock (along with Sandman) turns on Osborn and help Spidey even the odds during the final fight.

 

[pjspider1C]

^ I am so glad you're not a writer.

And also, Norman Osborn is dead. They buried his body. He's not coming back. Not even in Harry's hallucinations... cause Harry's dead, too. And also buried.

 

[[A]]

And also, Norman Osborn is dead. They buried his body. He's not coming back. Not even in Harry's hallucinations... cause Harry's dead, too. And also buried.

Categorical.

 

[Jick]

What the hell, you lost me with Angel and One Tree Hill?

they're examples, man. I had to give you something.

Anyway, it is pretty simple. And Ock won't go berserk, he'll be cool and calm and will remember everything.

how will he do any evil then if he'll remember everything? if he remebers what he became for a while and what he did to rectify his mistakes? the lessons he's been through.[/QUOTE]The brain damage motif will only be hinted at once, it won't be long and drawn out or overly explained. But the auduience will know that something is different about him,[/QUOTE]I doubt. it will be acused of lazy writting. and it's what it is.

we'll see it in his vile but calm behavior and his superior complex, that's the trauma that will be experienced.

what trauma, if he'll be uncounscious underwater? to experience a trauma, you have to be awaken.

I understand exactly what you're saying, but that could be caused by him simply blacking out, by lack of oxygen getting to his brain, which by the way can cause brain damage. However, Doc Ock will have complete control of his tentacles, same intelligence, but this Ock should be a lot more vile than the one in SM2.

no. sorry, but no. as said, that's lazy writting to make a extraordinary villain, whose story is over and had the entire second movie for him, come back as an evil doer.

I'm telling you, it's not hard at all to bring this character back.

the problem is bring him back as an evil man. there's just no way you can bring him back without messing with SM2.

I like villains to be villains.

me too, but this Ock simply isn't like this. that's why I want another director to take the helm of this movie franchise. I hope we can see the alikes of Lizard and Scorpion as really bad guys.

Yeah Exactly, I thought visionary wanted a more mature movie as well. This is very disappointing that he would be so conflicted in his views, because vision and I have similar opinions on Sam's ability to deliver fluff; but this idea visionary is spouting seems to be asking for more fluff and cheap parlor tricks in writing. Visionary, I am completely at a loss to what exactly you want for a Spiderman film.

On one hand you want blood and gore, on another, you want cheap parlor tricks. On one hand you want mature themes, on another, you one famboyism.

You do see how conflicting that is..... right?

I thought the same thing.

 

[Visionary]

Yeah Exactly, I thought visionary wanted a more mature movie as well. This is very disappointing that he would be so conflicted in his views, because vision and I have similar opinions on Sam's ability to deliver fluff; but this idea visionary is spouting seems to be asking for more fluff and cheap parlor tricks in writing. Visionary, I am completely at a loss to what exactly you want for a Spiderman film.

On one hand you want blood and gore, on another, you want cheap parlor tricks. On one hand you want mature themes, on another, you one famboyism.

You do see how conflicting that is..... right?

I'm not lost on the fact that we're still in the realm of comic book films. I don't want a movie so mature that I no longer want Spider-Man to wear red and blue pajamas. I find nothing wrong with a villain having brain damage, especially if there is a legit reason for it, Ock has that reason with the ending to SM2. Trust me, to see a truly badass Doc Ock on screen, and him not being asleep or controlled by his tentacles in order for him to kill or want to kill and still be highly intelligent, would be extremely refreshing to these films.

I love how you fools keeps using the phrase BLOOD AND GORE. Like all I want to see in a Spider-Man movie, is everyone carrying a 45 Magnum blowing people away at random. It's mindboggling how soft some of you Spider-Man fans are, at the mere mention of a villain actually doing something evil, because he damn well wants to, it turns you people into over-protective soccer moms.

Cheap palor tricks, is having Peter dance like bufoon at a jazz club, having Mary Jane kidnapped by a villain in all three films, having villains turn good, or having the Green Goblin look cuter than a Smurf...all to make the movie appeal to and easily comprehend by kids. So don't become confused by what I want, because if you actually saw what I want from these films, you'd forget all about the fun, goofy, watered-down, childish and cute Hanna Montana-like movies that Sam Raimi, Marvel and Sony has presented before you.

 

[Visionary]

they're examples, man. I had to give you something.

Don't ever give me examples with the name One Tree Hill in it.

how will he do any evil then if he'll remember everything? if he remebers what he became for a while and what he did to rectify his mistakes? the lessons he's been through.

He now won't give a damn, that's why he's a villain. Did you ever stop to think that Sam Raimi gave us a watered-down version of Doctor Octopus, because that's what he did. Seriously, do you really like a good guy Doc Ock, I don't?

I doubt. it will be acused of lazy writting. and it's what it is.

It will be accused of lazy writing by whom, this was hinted in the comic books?

I read a review from the first Spider-Man film, where the guy says that it was lazy writing, to make the villain's son just happen to be the best friend of Peter, to hell with it being in the comics for 45 years, do you agree with this too? Yeah, that damn Stan Lee and his lazy ass writing.

what trauma, if he'll be uncounscious underwater? to experience a trauma, you have to be awaken.

Did you not see SM2 where an entire warehouse with steal beams falling down upon his head, with Ock fully awake, bellowing like a bear in heat, with a sphere of energy sucking everything into the abyss around him? Unless you don't find that to be a traumatic experience, I don't know what the hell to tell you.

no. sorry, but no. as said, that's lazy writting to make a extraordinary villain, whose story is over and had the entire second movie for him, come back as an evil doer.

Yeah, you're right, villains never come back in movies, in comics, in cartoons, all lazy writing. Damn you Darth Vader for coming back from certain death, damn YOU you extroadinary villain! And God forbid a villain should come back and actually be an EVIL-DOER. I mean, villains are cute and good like little bunny rabbits and they don't want to do you any harm. Well, at least in a Spider-Man movie.

Now I wouldn't want to see Venom or any Goblin to come back. But Doc Ock, it's just too easy to pull off. So, I say go for it at the end of SM5.

the problem is bring him back as an evil man. there's just no way you can bring him back without messing with SM2.

Not all, it's actually easier because of SM2. People not only saw Ock throw two people from a moving train (attempted murder) and take an old lady hostage (that ain't good either). He can't very well say the devil made him do it, or in his case, the tentacles made him do it. There's enough bad things on him to turn his ass into an EVIL-DOER in no time, unless his goody-two-shoes ass also likes prison too.

me too, but this Ock simply isn't like this. that's why I want another director to take the helm of this movie franchise. I hope we can see the alikes of Lizard and Scorpion as really bad guys.

I have to wonder, with you fighting like hell not to see an actual badass and evil Doc Ock, are you sure you don't want to see The Lizard and Scorpion kissing under the maple tree?

Oh, one more thing, they would never put The Lizard amd Scorpion in the same movie, or even split them up into SM4/SM5. The mechanics of creating them power-wise and CGI-wise are too similar. It's like putting Sandman and Hydro-Man into the same film. And THE LIZARD is a much better choice than Scorpion.

 

[Jick]

Don't ever give me examples with the name One Tree Hill in it.

that's up to you, then.

He now won't give a damn, that's why he's a villain.

first you say you want a more mature movie, with an intelligent story, then you come up with this? he simply "won't give a damn"? yeah man, we totaly get you...

I read a review from the first Spider-Man film, where the guy says that it was lazy writing

to each his own

Did you not see SM2 where an entire warehouse with steal beams falling down upon his head, with Ock fully awake, bellowing like a bear in heat, with a sphere of energy sucking everything into the abyss around him? Unless you don't find that to be a traumatic experience, I don't know what the hell to tell you.

the only thing Ock saw was his mini-sun falling over him, a sun he created. no. no trauma. the trauma he've been through in the movie was the accident, which killed his wife and bonded the tentacles in him. that's trauma. that's why he've been bad for a while. he was traumatized, desperate, and influenced by the tentacles. but he recovered sanity in the end.

Yeah, you're right, villains never come back in movies, in comics, in cartoons, all lazy writing.

I thought I've made that clear. lazy writting is bring him back as an evil man with only this "brain damage" as explanation. since when people with this problem have to turn against the law?

Damn you Darth Vader for coming back from certain death, damn YOU you extroadinary villain!

oh, so Darth Vader was good-doer before too? that's totally new.

There's enough bad things on him to turn his ass into an EVIL-DOER in no time

without messing with SM2? no, there isn't.

I have to wonder, with you fighting like hell not to see an actual badass and evil Doc Ock

badass and evil turned good again in the final. I can already see it again if he comes back. and dying again...seen that already.

Oh, one more thing, they would never put The Lizard amd Scorpion in the same movie, or even split them up into SM4/SM5. The mechanics of creating them power-wise and CGI-wise are too similar. It's like putting Sandman and Hydro-Man into the same film. And THE LIZARD is a much better choice than Scorpion.

same movie? no. different movie...well...we'll have to see.

 

[Visionary]

first you say you want a more mature movie, with an intelligent story, then you come up with this? he simply "won't give a damn"? yeah man, we totaly get you...

Yeah, he won't give a damn. Did The Joker give a damn when he blew up a hospital, no, because that's what villains do, they don't give a damn about what normal people care about? And you still got an intelligent and mature movie out of TDK.

to each his own

To each his own what? I'm just stating that lazy writing can be applied to almost anything taking from the comics, depending on who reading or watching it. Both the 'Harry/Peter/Goblin' connection and the 'Brain Damage' motif comes from the comics, like it or not.

the only thing Ock saw was his mini-sun falling over him, a sun he created. no. no trauma. the trauma he've been through in the movie was the accident, which killed his wife and bonded the tentacles in him. that's trauma. that's why he've been bad for a while. he was traumatized, desperate, and influenced by the tentacles. but he recovered sanity in the end.

What, he mentioned his wife once and forgot about her, lol, oh the trauma? I dare not call that lazy writng. You and Sam Raimi have no clue what villains are. To actually see a movie with Doc Ock not being influenced or controlled by his tentacle, would be wonderful. I wonder how Batman fans would have felt if The Joker started helping old ladies across the street and saving people at the end of TDK.

I thought I've made that clear. lazy writting is bring him back as an evil man with only this "brain damage" as explanation. since when people with this problem have to turn against the law? oh, so Darth Vader was good-doer before too? that's totally new.

No, lazy writing is having villains being good hearted and kind to begin with. Lazy writing is repeating the same events in each movie, as we have seen with MJ and the villains. Let's just keep continuing down this road of having goody-two-shoes villains pop up in every Spider-Man movie. Then we all can watch as the quailty continue to dwindle with each film.

My Vader comment was to let you know, that you bring back a villain even if he appears to be at death's door. Especially, if the director and producer says...he NOT dead.

without messing with SM2? no, there isn't.

Wait, you mean SM2 wasn't messed up for making Doc Ock a good guy and a poem ready cushy husband, who is controlled by his tentacles, which is the only way the filmmakers will allow him to do bad things. Welcome to Pussyville, I hope you enjoy your stay.

badass and evil turned good again in the final. I can already see it again if he comes back. and dying again...seen that already.

Here's a really crazy idea, how about we have Doc Ock not die if he returns. Do we really need to see every villain die, talk about lazy writing and cheap polar tricks?

same movie? no. different movie...well...we'll have to see.

Either way, you will never see them use Scorpion after they've used The Lizard.