The Dark Knight To Bleach or Not to Bleach? That is the Question

[Mister J]

Title brought to you by Solidus.

This is the continuation of the much ballyhooed, cyclical, insightful and entertaining discussion pertaining to the decision to have the Joker wear makeup in The Dark Knight.

Bring your opinions on the consequences of this aesthetic choice as it relates to the character's motivations, portrayal, history and overall existence.

If you don't care one way or the other, there's really no reason for you to be here.
edit: Apparently, I need to make this sentiment clearer.

All opinions, regardless of preference to the makeup issue, are welcomed here. However, if you have nothing to add, but transparent drivel that equates to telling people to "get over it" or labeling them "nitpicking/whiny fanboys", "not real fans" or anything comparable, you need to stay out. If you can't express your point (indifferent to the matter, or otherwise) without trivializing the views of others, do not post here.

There are hundreds of threads around this place, with enough varying topics that practically anyone registered here can find something to pique their interest. If this isn't one that's particular to you, find another. Trolling will not be tolerated. Contribute something or don't bother at all.

The Former Thread

 

[LegendaryCaleb]

The Joker is still the Joker without being Permawhite...Im not bothered by it...lol...Of course Ive said this several times on the old thread...thought Id just throw it out there

 

[The Shape]

Oh, no. This isn't the same without that famous title...

 

[Commodore Schmidlapp]

Yeah I'm more interested in the authenticity of the character himself, not so much the make-up

 

[The Guard]

If you can accept major changes to the nature of Batman, you should be able to accept a change to the nature of The Joker. Otherwise you're something of a hypocrite.

 

[Crook]

The Joker is still the Joker without being Permawhite...Im not bothered by it...lol

Couldn't have thought of a more brilliant way to start off a debate thread. Genius.

 

[TheCaptain]

I still think the new cop Joker pic keeps the permawhite theory alive.

 

[Solidus]

Nice. This will be continue to be an interesting thread. I do have some thoughts I play to post later.

 

[The Shape]

Here's one of my last posts in the other thread that pretty much sums up my thoughts, for those that haven't seen it:

I find the fact that the man who becomes the Joker takes on this persona himself VERY interesting. In the comics/B'89, a man came out of a chemical bath with a completely clownish appearance and said..."Der, I'm da Joker now!" Now, I love that origin, and I don't dislike the perma-white aspect at all, but that's the Joker in a nutshell, without delving into all of the other psychological issues and all that.

In TDK, however, this man's face is scarred somehow across the mouth. This event, similar to the chemical bath, must have put this man straight over the edge. With his twisted smile, he takes on the persona of the Joker, but creating the clownish image himself, rather than having it completely bestowed upon him. The comic and TDK versions only truly lack similarities in their appearances, but their "origins", and the ideas behind them, are very close. The Joker from the comics is perma-white, and can never change that, just as TDK has perma-scars, which will never fade. And just as the Joker loves his ghastly white appearance in the comics, it appears TDK Joker loves his scars, otherwise he would seek a surgical solution.

So, in conclusion, I don't mind the change, because the heart of the character is still there. What makes it even more interesting for me is that the Joker's makeup essnetially becomes his new face. He never takes it off and lets it rot on him until it nearly looks permanent. However, he did remove it to impersonate the police officer, but I don't see that as being much different from the Joker putting on flesh-colored make-up to impersonate or blend in the comics or B'89. As I said, they look different, but the principle behind them remains the same.

And in response toone of nickyg's points, the Joker loves people looking like him. If he could, he would turn the whole world into a bunch of deranged clowns. That's why in the comics he has his Joker venom, and why his goons commonly wear clown masks. This remains the same in TDK, with Joker painting his face all over Harvey Dent posters, his victims, etc. I don't feel that he can be replicated, because it's not only his appearance that defines him, but his actions.

 

[JokerLedger]

I pretty much shared my thoughts in another thread in the comics forum but I prefer my Joker as the Joker presented in TDK. I'm not a fan of his origins in the comics but that's something I don't necessarily care about nor think about when I see the character. But I must admit, the Joker's origin presented in Batman Confidential 7~12 is probably the best I've seen out of all the multiple choices the character presents so far.

 

[Mister J]

I still think the new cop Joker pic keeps the permawhite theory alive.

I'm thinking that may something with the funky filter those pics were shown in, though there was some obvious variance in tone.

As much as I would have loved it for a choice, I gave up on bleached skin as an inclusion a long time ago. It's going to stick out as a sore spot for me, as if something were missing, regardless of how good the performance is.

 

[LegendaryCaleb]

Couldn't have thought of a more brilliant way to start off a debate thread. Genius.

I smell a lil sarcasticness in that post...

 

[Dirt Like Me]

If you can accept major changes to the nature of Batman, you should be able to accept a change to the nature of The Joker. Otherwise you're something of a hypocrite.

Okay, I'll ask...

Are you saying that Begins made changes to the nature of Batman that you would put on the same level as the liberties Nolan has taken with the Joker? I'm curious to know what you're thinking of here.

 

[FhFgJg]

I'm thinking that may something with the funky filter those pics were shown in, though there was some obvious variance in tone.

As much as I would have loved it for a choice, I gave up on bleached skin as an inclusion a long time ago. It's going to stick out as a sore spot for me, as if something were missing, regardless of how good the performance is.

Well the chemical bath origin with the Red Hood never was written until what...1951? so if Nolan is taking the interpretation from the Joker's original appearance in 1940....i don't see the problem. I mean he has gotten the characterization down right and yeah....he paints his face. But the original appearance never said yay or nay to that....so it's uncertain.

I just think people beat this permawhite debate into the ground.

 

[CaptainClown]

aw i wanted to title to be I still can't believe its not perma

 

[Harmonica]

There are WAY too many changes in this movie.

 

[Saint]

I personally find the approach Nolan has taken to be rather interesting. Originally the make-up bothered me considerably, but I've gotten over it, mostly. The reason is basically because the look is very, very cool--I love the decaying, textured look to the Joker. I'm going to be perfectly honest, even if it means being ostracized by my fellow purists: I like the look of TDK's Joker as much as and possibly more than I like his look in the comics.

As I've explained in the past, Joker's appearance is part of a compulsion to expose undercurrents of violence in things ostensibly innocent. In the comics, he expresses this with a very clean-cut clown look, and it works. But the rotting, imploding look he has in TDK works well, too.

That said--there's no reason it needed to be this way. The idea that the classic look could not have worked is absurd, regardless of how much I like the new one. Likewise, there's no reason the look they have could not have been achieved with bleached skin. If Joker fell into a vat of chemicals and scrabbled out, that would give him a comparably uneven, blotchy look, and would be no less realistic than a magic microwave emitter.

 

[jmc]

I'd like to start a campaign that bans the word 'permawhite' from this thread. Bleach is an actual word people.

 

[TheDreamMaster]

I'm not bothered by the lack of perma-white. I think Ledger will bring justice to the greatest comic villian of all time.

 

[JaD]

I still think it'll be somewhat perma in a way, I mean we don't know if he had to use a bit of different makeup like Nicholson in Batman '89 to get the normal skin in that leaked cop pic. His skin could be perma in a sense if he has that makeup on all the time. Like if he washes it off it could still be bleached onto his face or whatever and it can't come off all the way.

 

[Solidus]

I personally find the approach Nolan has taken to be rather interesting. Originally the make-up bothered me considerably, but I've gotten over it, mostly. The reason is basically because the look is very, very cool--I love the decaying, textured look to the Joker. I'm going to be perfectly honest, even if it means being ostracized by my fellow purists: I like the look of TDK's Joker as much as and possibly more than I like his look in the comics.

As I've explained in the past, Joker's appearance is part of a compulsion to expose undercurrents of violence in things ostensibly innocent. In the comics, he expresses this with a very clean-cut clown look, and it works. But the rotting, imploding look he has in TDK works well, too.

That said--there's no reason it needed to be this way. The idea that the classic look could not have worked is absurd, regardless of how much I like the new one. Likewise, there's no reason the look they have could not have been achieved with bleached skin. If Joker fell into a vat of chemicals and scrabbled out, that would give him a comparably uneven, blotchy look, and would be no less realistic than a magic microwave emitter.

Very well said Saint, very well said. There was no reason for it to be this way, but to me it seemed Nolan chose it for an artistic choice, nothing to do with realism at all. I truly believe it was artistic.

And I do love the new look. And the comic look. I love the Joker all around.

Not in that way.

 

[NoName86]

It's actually really interesting for me seeing the pic of him without make up. It just felt like seeing him with just his scars was the real mask, and then I see the make up on and he seems like himself.

 

[StylishHokie21]

I still wish he was perma-white. Oh well!

 

[FhFgJg]

I personally find the approach Nolan has taken to be rather interesting. Originally the make-up bothered me considerably, but I've gotten over it, mostly. The reason is basically because the look is very, very cool--I love the decaying, textured look to the Joker. I'm going to be perfectly honest, even if it means being ostracized by my fellow purists: I like the look of TDK's Joker as much as and possibly more than I like his look in the comics.

As I've explained in the past, Joker's appearance is part of a compulsion to expose undercurrents of violence in things ostensibly innocent. In the comics, he expresses this with a very clean-cut clown look, and it works. But the rotting, imploding look he has in TDK works well, too.

That said--there's no reason it needed to be this way. The idea that the classic look could not have worked is absurd, regardless of how much I like the new one. Likewise, there's no reason the look they have could not have been achieved with bleached skin. If Joker fell into a vat of chemicals and scrabbled out, that would give him a comparably uneven, blotchy look, and would be no less realistic than a magic microwave emitter.

I have to agree with you that I often find myself more infatuated with Ledger's look as the joker than any look the comic offered. I can't stand the 60's look, or even some of the modern looks of the joker. I always enjoyed the morbid and ghastly look of the joker in the dark knight returns. I love the look of him from Batman #1. I also like the look of him from the 70s. I just think the look Nolan is using is so much more practical and real. I mean honestly...what chemical will turn your skin white and hair green simultaneously? If anyone can find this chemical then i will stand corrected.

 

[Harmonica]

I have to agree with you that I often find myself more infatuated with Ledger's look as the joker than any look the comic offered. I can't stand the 60's look, or even some of the modern looks of the joker. I always enjoyed the morbid and ghastly look of the joker in the dark knight returns. I love the look of him from Batman #1. I also like the look of him from the 70s. I just think the look Nolan is using is so much more practical and real. I mean honestly...what chemical will turn your skin white and hair green simultaneously? If anyone can find this chemical then i will stand corrected.[/quote]


Fantasy.