The Dark Knight To Bleach or Not to Bleach? That is the Question

[Mister J]

Well the chemical bath origin with the Red Hood never was written until what...1951? so if Nolan is taking the interpretation from the Joker's original appearance in 1940....i don't see the problem. I mean he has gotten the characterization down right and yeah....he paints his face. But the original appearance never said yay or nay to that....so it's uncertain.

I just think people beat this permawhite debate into the ground.

Makeup is hardly uncertain. Beyond that, Nolan also cited The Killing Joke as being an influence on the film. It's not as if he based his approach on those first two issues alone. He chose to feature makeup, not because it fell outside of the domain he was looking to, but rather, simply because he wanted to. Whatever characterization he has chosen could have just as easily represented through bleached skin.

'Beating this debate into the ground' is what the thread (and the past one) is about. No surprise there.

 

[Saint]

I'd like to start a campaign that bans the word 'permawhite' from this thread. Bleach is an actual word people.

Yeah, no kidding. Every time I read the word (which I refuse to type) I feel like I've been stabbed in the brain.

 

[deathfromabove]

Here's one of my last posts in the other thread that pretty much sums up my thoughts, for those that haven't seen it:

great post that i cannot quote

 

[Boom]

I've come to terms with it. I'll give Nolan the benefit of the doubt for now.

But I still would've preferred permawhite.

 

[The Shape]

No, there's reason that the perma-whiteness had to be changed, but there really no reason for anything to be the same as the comics besides "Datz how it iz in teh comicz!!!"

This is an adaptation of the Joker, just as Tim Burton's was in 1989. It's just one take on an amazing character that can be interpreted and modified in so many ways...and still be awesome.

 

[FhFgJg]

Makeup is hardly uncertain. Beyond that, Nolan also cited The Killing Joke as being an influence on the film. It's not as if he based his approach on those first two issues alone. He chose to feature makeup, not because it fell outside of the domain he was looking to, but rather, simply because he wanted to. Whatever characterization he has chosen could have just as easily represented through bleached skin.

'Beating this debate into the ground' is what the thread (and the past one) is about. No surprise there.

You're absolutely right. I'm just saying that if people say the makeup approach is wrong to the character...well the first never said it wasn't. I mean i'm not saying they knew what he was when they first wrote him....but far all we knew he was just a crazy guy who painted himself all over. I mean they originally were going to kill him off. My point is.....the permawhite theory is not necessarily the way that Bill and Bob wrote him to be in his first appearance, if this is what Nolan is mostly basing this off of. Which he isn't totally.

 

[jmc]

Yeah, no kidding. Every time I read the word (which I refuse to type) I feel like I've been stabbed in the brain.

Seriously, who ever came up with the word 'permawhite' needs to have a good, long, hard look at themselves in the mirror.

 

[Crook]

I personally find the approach Nolan has taken to be rather interesting. Originally the make-up bothered me considerably, but I've gotten over it, mostly. The reason is basically because the look is very, very cool--I love the decaying, textured look to the Joker. I'm going to be perfectly honest, even if it means being ostracized by my fellow purists: I like the look of TDK's Joker as much as and possibly more than I like his look in the comics.

As I've explained in the past, Joker's appearance is part of a compulsion to expose undercurrents of violence in things ostensibly innocent. In the comics, he expresses this with a very clean-cut clown look, and it works. But the rotting, imploding look he has in TDK works well, too.

That said--there's no reason it needed to be this way. The idea that the classic look could not have worked is absurd, regardless of how much I like the new one. Likewise, there's no reason the look they have could not have been achieved with bleached skin. If Joker fell into a vat of chemicals and scrabbled out, that would give him a comparably uneven, blotchy look, and would be no less realistic than a magic microwave emitter.

Well said.

I too, have grown to the decayed clown visage. It definitely adds a new level of menace that hasn't really been implemented much in the comics. However, I do still think permawhite could've provided practically the same means to an end. And it has the benefit of simply being faithful to the comics (which apparently is a horror).

I fully expect to love this take to a point, much in the same way I loved Penguin and Catwoman in BR. There will always a nagging feeling that they could have done better by sticking close to the comics, as good as the material was already.

I just think the look Nolan is using is so much more practical and real. I mean honestly...what chemical will turn your skin white and hair green simultaneously? If anyone can find this chemical then i will stand corrected.

 

[CaptainClown]

Ya I agree with Saint. I have begun liking this look over the original look.

 

[Jesster32388]

To me this is a lot like the "Web shooters/ No Web shooters" debate back in the day when it was only Spider-man hype around here. Ah nostalgic

But back on point. In my opinion I would have liked to have seen Perma white because in my mind that's apart of the Jokers look as much as anything. But like some one stated up above, the Joker is the Joker no matter what. Just because his skin is not bleached doesn't mean he's still not the psychopath we all know and love.

Besides I see this Joker as a completely different thing. Much like I see all the Jokers over the different mediums. So I love this version of the Joker so far and can't wait to see more. So for this look the make up doesn't bother me, it fit's in perfect for what Nolan is trying to do

 

[Loneranger]

No bleach here, guys. Nolan is drawing from the first two joker comics; he had no origin in those comics. "You know, like war paint...to scare people." It's make-up. Get over it.

 

[Crook]

You're absolutely right. I'm just saying that if people say the makeup approach is wrong to the character...well the first never said it wasn't. I mean i'm not saying they knew what he was when they first wrote him....but far all we knew he was just a crazy guy who painted himself all over. I mean they originally were going to kill him off. My point is.....the permawhite theory is not necessarily the way that Bill and Bob wrote him to be in his first appearance, if this is what Nolan is mostly basing this off of. Which he isn't totally.

You either have selective memory, or you need to take a look at the 2 comics again.

While the chemical bath origin wasn't detailed, there was a single panel that clearly shows Joker with chalk-white skin...everywhere.

 

[Sidepocket]

I have to agree with you that I often find myself more infatuated with Ledger's look as the joker than any look the comic offered. I can't stand the 60's look, or even some of the modern looks of the joker. I always enjoyed the morbid and ghastly look of the joker in the dark knight returns. I love the look of him from Batman #1. I also like the look of him from the 70s. I just think the look Nolan is using is so much more practical and real. I mean honestly...what chemical will turn your skin white and hair green simultaneously? If anyone can find this chemical then i will stand corrected.

That is what I was saying, unless it is pure fantasy (Batman 89) it is too much of a stretch for audiences to accept. Comic book people can accept almost anything (Egg Fu?), for movie people this would be too much.

The closest thing I can think of is Mercury Poisoning of the skin to turn the skin whit-ish, but it is more of a silver Grey color and it cannot do all the other stuff.

Plus with the make-up, you can have the whole dynamic of Joker being scarred on the inside and the dynamic make-up offers.

 

[CaptainClown]

I'd like to start a campaign that bans the word 'permawhite' from this thread. Bleach is an actual word people.

so it would be like you and who else?

 

[FhFgJg]

You either have selective memory, or you need to take a look at the 2 comics again.

While the chemical bath origin wasn't detailed, there was a single panel that clearly shows Joker with chalk-white skin...everywhere.

Yes, and maybe he was intended to be bleached right off the get go. But who's to say the guy wasn't insane enough to paint his entire body?

People will laugh at this, but really how far is too far with a guy that kills people with a smile on their face? Really?

 

[Sidepocket]

You either have selective memory, or you need to take a look at the 2 comics again.

While the chemical bath origin wasn't detailed, there was a single panel that clearly shows Joker with chalk-white skin...everywhere.

You're absolutely right. I'm just saying that if people say the makeup approach is wrong to the character...well the first never said it wasn't. I mean i'm not saying they knew what he was when they first wrote him....but far all we knew he was just a crazy guy who painted himself all over. I mean they originally were going to kill him off. My point is.....the permawhite theory is not necessarily the way that Bill and Bob wrote him to be in his first appearance, if this is what Nolan is mostly basing this off of. Which he isn't totally.

My favorite thing about Superhero Hype...nobody and I mean NOBODY can READ! t:

 

[Mister J]

No bleach here, guys. Nolan is drawing from the first two joker comics; he had no origin in those comics. "You know, like war paint...to scare people." It's make-up. Get over it.

This isn't necessary.

You can either chose to contribute to the discussion or refrain from posting here. Regardless of what your preference is, your assertion that people simply need to 'get over it', as if there is no choice but to simply embrace everything laid out, isn't needed.

 

[jmc]

so it would be like you and who else?

Who ever else wants to use proper English.

 

[Dirt Like Me]

It's just one take on an amazing character that can be interpreted and modified in so many ways...and still be awesome.

My question, generally-speaking, is how many ways can a character be modified before you lose the character? Is a character's appearance merely superficial as long as their attitude and behavior are essentially intact?

To play devil's advocate: what if Nolan cast a woman as the Joker, and she turned in a performance like Ledger's? Would that still be The Joker?

 

[StylishHokie21]

I personally find the approach Nolan has taken to be rather interesting. Originally the make-up bothered me considerably, but I've gotten over it, mostly. The reason is basically because the look is very, very cool--I love the decaying, textured look to the Joker. I'm going to be perfectly honest, even if it means being ostracized by my fellow purists: I like the look of TDK's Joker as much as and possibly more than I like his look in the comics.

As I've explained in the past, Joker's appearance is part of a compulsion to expose undercurrents of violence in things ostensibly innocent. In the comics, he expresses this with a very clean-cut clown look, and it works. But the rotting, imploding look he has in TDK works well, too.

That said--there's no reason it needed to be this way. The idea that the classic look could not have worked is absurd, regardless of how much I like the new one. Likewise, there's no reason the look they have could not have been achieved with bleached skin. If Joker fell into a vat of chemicals and scrabbled out, that would give him a comparably uneven, blotchy look, and would be no less realistic than a magic microwave emitter.

Great post as usual Saint! This new look has grown on me somewhat. You're definitely right about the classic look. Why do some keep thinking the bleaching couldn't have worked?

 

[Crook]

Yes, and maybe he was intended to be bleached right off the get go. But who's to say the guy wasn't insane enough to paint his entire body?

People will laugh at this, but really how far is too far with a guy that kills people with a smile on their face? Really?

I'm starting to wonder if you've ever read many comics. Batman mythology is filled with "ridiculous" but psychologically deep characters, and more importantly, it's not even remotely bound by realism. That's kinda why Batman even exists in the first place.

My favorite thing about Superhero Hype...nobody and I mean NOBODY can READ! t:

I ignored it the first time on purpose. It's clearly a poor delusional excuse to justify the bleached skin.

It's one thing to state that you don't like it. It's another to come up with an incredible stretch to discredit it's presence.

 

[Superhobo]

My question, generally-speaking, is how many ways can a character be modified before you lose the character? Is a character's appearance merely superficial as long as their attitude and behavior are essentially intact?

To play devil's advocate: what if Nolan cast a woman as the Joker, and she turned in a performance like Ledger's? Would that still be The Joker?

TheShape thinks so.

 

[FhFgJg]

Great post as usual Saint! This new look has grown on me somewhat. You're definitely right about the classic look. Why do some keep thinking the bleaching couldn't have worked?

If it was a different look than the comics, i think it could work. But given the world that Nolan has created and built upon, seeing a guy walk around with bleached white skin all over, perfect green hair, and ruby red perfect lips would look nuts. And not explaining it would even be more nuts. People would see all the grounding in reality and then see Joker and think....wait how the? um.....

Now if he were bleached in the film and his look wasn't so perfect looking in the comics...that's another thing and that could have worked.

I'm just saying that the comics look of the joker down to absolute perfection couldn't really stand in Nolan's take in my opinion.

 

[Solidus]

I'm thinking of digging up my views on the old thread, that was buried hundreds of pages back. But I have revised it a tad, but soon I hope to post my views on it, just food for thought is what it is. And how I view it. So I will try and get on that.

 

[Galilee]

I trust Nolan, and won't mind if Joker uses makeup. I would have preferred bleached skin, however, for the frightening aspect of it. What I mean is, think about a person that you are interrogating. Or worse, trying to rehabilitate, and he has that face. You can't wash that face away, he always looks like that. I would probably dread every day I had to see him.