The Dark Knight To Bleach or Not to Bleach? That is the Question

[Crook]

Well Christ man, you gotta explain more in what cake we're talking about here!

 

[contemporarydog]

Thing is, the story deviates from the comics but the film looks absolutely first-rate, so it doesn't matter that much. If it looked pap, then it would be annoying, but it doesn't, so it isn't. the characters in LOTR deviated from the book quite a bit, especially Merry, Pippin and Strider, but it didn't really matter as the films were so good. DItto wolverine in X Men.

 

[MillsOfGod]

Well, I'm first inclined to say capturing the spirit of a character in adaptation isn't a maths quiz.

Though, if it were, I think the ratio of things Nolan and co HAVE got right far outweighs the proportion of things they've got wrong. Taking 40% for one "flaw" seems a bit much. Seems like you're swelling the number to match to your own personal disappointment over the loss of permawhite.

I see it more like this. The Joker, as we're getting him, seems to be a great big, delicious cake. Only, without permawhite, they didn't put the icing on top. Or, more appropriately, they DID put icing on top, but the icing is the wrong color. Looking at this cake with the wrong-colored icing, I'm disappointed a bit, as its not quite as aesthetically pleasing as I would have liked. But then I take a bite, and remember that all icing tastes the same, and the cake's still just as delicious as it would have been with my favorite color of icing.

The cake is still a cake. And The Joker is still The Joker.

A serial killer without perma-white who's pretending to be the Joker is more like icing without the cake.

 

[Keyser Soze]

A serial killer without perma-white who's pretending to be the Joker is more like icing without the cake.

Here we go again...

Yes, because killing Jason Todd, or shooting Barbara Gordon, or killing Sarah Essen, or any of the diabolical, twisted, and utterly Jokerish things he did in The Killing Joke, The Man Who Laughs, The Joker's Five-Way Revenge, A Death In The Family, The Dark Knight Returns, The Lughing Fish etc etc etc....would have been utterly insignificant and un-Joker-like if the colorist had inked his neck a different color in them.

 

[MillsOfGod]

Here we go again...

Yes, because killing Jason Todd, or shooting Barbara Gordon, or killing Sarah Essen, or any of the diabolical, twisted, and utterly Jokerish things he did in The Killing Joke, The Man Who Laughs, The Joker's Five-Way Revenge, A Death In The Family, The Dark Knight Returns, The Lughing Fish etc etc etc....would have been utterly insignificant and un-Joker-like if the colorist had inked his neck a different color in them.

Well...yeah. It would've been.

 

[guitarkhero311]

Here we go again...

Yes, because killing Jason Todd, or shooting Barbara Gordon, or killing Sarah Essen, or any of the diabolical, twisted, and utterly Jokerish things he did in The Killing Joke, The Man Who Laughs, The Joker's Five-Way Revenge, A Death In The Family, The Dark Knight Returns, The Lughing Fish etc etc etc....would have been utterly insignificant and un-Joker-like if the colorist had inked his neck a different color in them.

That statement sounds like it came from a six year old girl who got the purple Barbie car instead of the pink. The color of his neck would have not deterred me in the slightest bit, especially since it is so insignifficant. He has the smile, the laugh, the jokes, the insanity, but his neck is a different color, OMG, its not the Joker!!!!!!!! That makes no sense to me. I mean no disrespect but that is my feeling.

 

[ultimatefan]

*wonders if any Schumacher/60s Batman fans have read the boards these past few years and felt the same way*


I always thought of it as "pieces that make up a whole", with some pieces being more significant than the other. Say we leave out permawhite, and substitute in similarly glaring traits of Joker; like the trademark laugh, morbid humor, or even just the green hair. If everything else was nailed about the character, but these things were missing, I don't know, I'd be more inclined to say "this is a pale imitation" rather than "great, it's absolutely perfect". Not saying this is the case here with Heath, but just a bit of insight of where I think others are coming from.


Man, you always bring this up. Is it that hard to believe "old" concepts can be interpreted new ways, without it being a retread of previous angles?

Seriously, there are so many things in BB that have been done in previous batmovies, but I don't see people calling it a rip-off. And that's largely because they differentiated itself enough not be looked at in the same way, despite using very similar elements in the narrative.

This applies to Joker's (possible) backstory, Batman's character, the villain's plot, Gordon's moustache....freakin' anything.

And this is NOT where I´m coming from. What these "others" come from is not my problem, or the problem of the majority of fans.

I can reversely ask why is it so hard to accept a new take on certain things when so much about the character is right. And the notion of Joker being an absolute without a defined past HAS been done and it has been done in the comics. I can argue Batman 89´s Joker´s background isn´t quite based on either of his origin stories from the comics, and yet I don´t see the fans of previous batmovies having such a problem with that. Joker´s backstory in and out of comics is MUCH more blurry and dubious than Batman - is he a mastermind thief with a helmet? A frustrated comedian? A mentally unstable gangster? A mafia hitman? The comparison with Batman and Gordon doesn´t apply.

And is this interpretation really as radically different as some want to imply? This Joker is scarred - which isn´t all that different from having his skin change color. Other than to disguise himself - maybe - he doesn´t remove his makeup, which makes his makeup a psychological perma-white - an idea I absolutely love BTW. We don´t know his origin - as we didn´t in comics for eight years - so who knows what happened to him.

 

[Keyser Soze]

That statement sounds like it came from a six year old girl who got the purple Barbie car instead of the pink. The color of his neck would have not deterred me in the slightest bit, especially since it is so insignifficant. He has the smile, the laugh, the jokes, the insanity, but his neck is a different color, OMG, its not the Joker!!!!!!!! That makes no sense to me. I mean no disrespect but that is my feeling.

Hey! My post was disagreeing with that mentality, not engaging in it.

This is karma getting back at me for thinking NevahEvahLand was Damiean Dark.

 

[Judson Caspian]

The Joker is still the Joker without being Permawhite.

How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[Keyser Soze]

How did you come to that conclusion?

Because if he looks like The Joker, talks like The Joker, and acts like The Joker...

 

[ronny]

How did you come to that conclusion?

Because he has a white face, green hair, red lips, wears purple, kills people, robs banks and seems to enjoy doing it.
Sounds like The Joker

 

[Judson Caspian]

So his arms and neck are white then?

 

[Keyser Soze]

So his arms and neck are white then?

Because through The Joker's long and storied history, nothing has defined him quite like what color artists choose to color his hands and neck...

 

[Judson Caspian]

Yes.

Cool. It's gonna be great to see that.

 

[ronny]

So his arms and neck are white then?

His hands are partially burned. What does that tell you?

 

[Judson Caspian]

How do you know they're burned?

 

[Closerframe]

I love how hard it is for people to face change, I could just imagine if the Hulk was still gray and a director decided to make him green for the movie, people would loss their minds and say the Hulk is no longer the Hulk.

 

[ronny]

How do you know they're burned?

Empire picture.
Leaked picture showing white discolourisation of fingers.
He's bleached or otherwise deformed in some areas, possibly through making bombs or creating Joker venom.

 

[The Joker_1000]

Joker venom? What in the world is that? The acid he uses on some of his victims?

 

[Keyser Soze]

I love how hard it is for people to face change, I could just imagine if the Hulk was still gray and a director decided to make him green for the movie, people would loss their minds and say the Hulk is no longer the Hulk.

I've seen it happen so often before. This just reminds me of the infamous organics war back in the time of the first "Spider-Man" film. It was so frustrating. I'd show the organic-haters pictures of Spider-Man from the film, in full costume, and say:

"So you're telling me that this is nothing like Spider-Man, and is Spider-Man in name alone?"

And they'd reply with:

"No that's not Spider-Man! That bears no resemblance to Spider-Man whatsoever! He doesn't have webshooters so he doesn't deserve the name Spider-Man! He should be called MAN-SPIDER!"

And you just wanted to scream "AAAAAAAAAAAAARGH YOU WOULDN'T EVEN BE ABLE TO SEE THE WEBSHOOTERS IF THEY WERE THERE, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE!?"

And I'm seeing a similar mentality here.

"Nope. That white faced, green haired, red-lipped, clown-faced killer in a purple suit, who laughs like a maniac, loves chaos and hates Batman is nothing like The Joker I know."

 

[ronny]

Joker venom? What in the world is that?

The poison that Joker uses on victims. It induces a fatal fit of laughter and the victim probably dies of suffocation as they can barely breathe. Sometimes the face of the dead guy actually takes on a more Jokerish appearance too, white skin, red lips, but that is at the discretion of the artist.
It can be in a gas or a liquid form.
There's actually a real illness that forces you into a smile, so the whole idea isn't a great leap. Plus, it could allow for us to see the warehouse from The Man Who Laughs. In which Gordon finds a room full of grinning corpses, The Joker having experimented on tramps and vagabonds before taking his creation public.

 

[Closerframe]

I've seen it happen so often before. This just reminds me of the infamous organics war back in the time of the first "Spider-Man" film. It was so frustrating. I'd show the organic-haters pictures of Spider-Man from the film, in full costume, and say:

"So you're telling me that this is nothing like Spider-Man, and is Spider-Man in name alone?"

And they'd reply with:

"No that's not Spider-Man! That bears no resemblance to Spider-Man whatsoever! He doesn't have webshooters so he doesn't deserve the name Spider-Man! He should be called MAN-SPIDER!"

And you just wanted to scream "AAAAAAAAAAAAARGH YOU WOULDN'T EVEN BE ABLE TO SEE THE WEBSHOOTERS IF THEY WERE THERE, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE!?"

And I'm seeing a similar mentality here.

"Nope. That white faced, green haired, red-lipped, clown-faced killer in a purple suit, who laughs like a maniac, loves chaos and hates Batman is nothing like The Joker I know."

People are just ******s. That can't face reality. I would love to see a documentary of this entitled "Fans vs. Fans"

 

[Keyser Soze]

People are just ******s. That can't face reality. I would love to see a documentary of this entitled "Fans vs. Fans"

I wouldn't call them ******s. I just think its a strong degree of stubbornness, and an unwillingness to compromise in their very specific vision of a character. All or nothing, my way or the highway, etc.

 

[The Joker_1000]

The poison that Joker uses on victims. It induces a fatal fit of laughter and the victim probably dies of suffocation as they can barely breathe. Sometimes the face of the dead guy actually takes on a more Jokerish appearance too, white skin, red lips, but that is at the discretion of the artist.
It can be in a gas or a liquid form.
There's actually a real illness that forces you into a smile, so the whole idea isn't a great leap. Plus, it could allow for us to see the warehouse from The Man Who Laughs. In which Gordon finds a room full of grinning corpses, The Joker having experimented on tramps and vagabonds before taking his creation public.

Alright, gotcha. I didn't really pay attention to the name of the venom but I know what it is. It was heavily emphasized in TAS.

 

[MillsOfGod]

I've seen it happen so often before. This just reminds me of the infamous organics war back in the time of the first "Spider-Man" film. It was so frustrating. I'd show the organic-haters pictures of Spider-Man from the film, in full costume, and say:

"So you're telling me that this is nothing like Spider-Man, and is Spider-Man in name alone?"

And they'd reply with:

"No that's not Spider-Man! That bears no resemblance to Spider-Man whatsoever! He doesn't have webshooters so he doesn't deserve the name Spider-Man! He should be called MAN-SPIDER!"

And you just wanted to scream "AAAAAAAAAAAAARGH YOU WOULDN'T EVEN BE ABLE TO SEE THE WEBSHOOTERS IF THEY WERE THERE, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE!?"

And I'm seeing a similar mentality here.

"Nope. That white faced, green haired, red-lipped, clown-faced killer in a purple suit, who laughs like a maniac, loves chaos and hates Batman is nothing like The Joker I know."

I was not complaining about Spider-Man's organic webshooters because that does not define the character.

Perma-white skin defines the Joker's character. Everyone I've showed the trailer to says "It looks good, I liked Batman Begins...but I don't like the Joker's look, it looks like smeared make-up."