The Dark Knight To Bleach or Not to Bleach? That is the Question

[Eggyman]

Agreed, Crook. He was an A1 nut boy.

 

[Octoberist]

and grissom knows it

 

[Eggyman]

You are quickly becoming my favourite month

 

[Octoberist]

yes............(punching walls)

 

[shapeshifter]

The Joker's accident had nothing to do with acid; they were unknown chemicals, which had the effect of bleaching his skin and permanently dying his hair.


After the many unrealistic occurences in Batman Begins, it is by no means a stretch to believe that someone has had the pigmentation of their skin chemically altered.

I always thought he was bleached, but did the hair and lips of his own accord, to add the the theatricality of his appearance.

 

[gobrutus]

Ugh, i posted a large reply complete with quotes but it didn't go through. I'll try to rewrite it.

I didn't mean 'humanize' in the way of causing empathy towards him. I simply meant it by its root which is to make him appear human. Yes, you're right that he was a complete dick before and after the accident, but he was just a person. I brought this up to contrast the two adaptations that we have seen with Burton and what we are told from Nolan

Burton's Joker - A horrible person who has an accident that pushes him over the edge. He takes on this persona, but still has human drives (power, money)

Nolan's Joker - A force. Not driven by anything but his own need to cause chaos. He only 'wants to watch the world burn.'

 

[Crook]

Burton's Joker - A horrible person who has an accident that pushes him over the edge. He takes on this persona, but still has human drives (power, money)

Nolan's Joker - A force. Not driven by anything but his own need to cause chaos. He only 'wants to watch the world burn.'

You're excluding many points to create this contrast however.

You don't think a large part of Burton's Joker was driven by creating chaos? The entire film was him causing trouble for the mob, the city, and Batman. He clearly had the intention of having a damn good time during the process, everywhere he went he gleefully killed and danced around.

As for Nolan's Joker, it's heavily implied that he too, was pushed by an accident. There's also no mistake that he's driven by power, as evidenced by bringing the mob under his wing, and his line of "this city deserves a better class of criminal".

The two are more similar than you give credit for.

 

[gobrutus]

Yes, Burton's used chaos, but he used it in an attempt to take power. His 'chaos' against the mob was revenge.

Nolan has already said we don't get an origin, so we dont REALLY know what caused this thing to be what he is, we only know him through his chaos. And by the mobile trailer we know the mob took him under their wing, not the other way around. I wouldn't be surprised if we get to see him turn around and get right back at the mob unprovoked.

 

[Crook]

Yes, Burton's used chaos, but he used it in an attempt to take power. His 'chaos' against the mob was revenge.

Again, how is Nolan's Joker any different in wanting to climb the ranks of the underworld. Even Nolan himself said this was a film about the rise of Joker. His antics call for attention. I'm sure he revels in the destruction he's amassed, but he has no problem widely accepting all the eyes that are now on him. Why else would he bother to hi-jack news stations and make public announcements?

Nolan has already said we don't get an origin, so we dont REALLY know what caused this thing to be what he is, we only know him through his chaos.

It doesn't matter if we don't know exactly what happened to him, just that we know something did happen, that obviously impacted his newfound persona. He wasn't BORN as the Joker. I realize it's the popular thing to say, but logic trumps that idea completely. We are all shaped by the environment.

And by the mobile trailer we know the mob took him under their wing, not the other way around. I wouldn't be surprised if we get to see him turn around and get right back at the mob unprovoked.

We also know from the prologue that he steals the money from the mob, and this is from the beginning of the film. I wouldn't be surprised if the mob turned to him simply because they were being blackmailed.

Besides, it was Alfred that said that. For all intents and purposes, his words are mere speculation.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

I always thought he was bleached, but did the hair and lips of his own accord, to add the the theatricality of his appearance.

Not in most versions of his origin, including the original Red Hood story and "The Killing Joke".

I think the only version in which he applies his own hair is Paul Dini & Alex Ross's B&W story, or so I've heard (never read it).

 

[gobrutus]

Again, how is Nolan's Joker any different in wanting to climb the ranks of the underworld. Even Nolan himself said this was a film about the rise of Joker. His antics call for attention. I'm sure he revels in the destruction he's amassed, but he has no problem widely accepting all the eyes that are now on him. Why else would he bother to hi-jack news stations and make public announcements?

When he said rise, I didn't take it as rise in power, but more as a rise in influence. Like this film is about the 'rise' of chaos. I think we assume that Bats is cleaning up the city of crooks one by one and here comes this Joker guy who slowly begins to mess everything up. There has been a lot of speculation of the sado/masochist mental state of the Joker where he wants to push Bats to kill him out of some sick pleasure as expressed in some of the comics. I tend to agree with this idea, and thats why he craves the attention.

It doesn't matter if we don't know exactly what happened to him, just that we know something did happen, that obviously impacted his newfound persona. He wasn't BORN as the Joker. I realize it's the popular thing to say, but logic trumps that idea completely. We are all shaped by the environment.

I didn't say he was born as the Joker, but simply interject that because we dont see his 'pre-Joker' life, it takes away a very important human element that we saw it Burton's Joker. The the act that started his persona is less relevant which means the paint/chemical argument is moot.

We also know from the prologue that he steals the money from the mob, and this is from the beginning of the film. I wouldn't be surprised if the mob turned to him simply because they were being blackmailed.

Besides, it was Alfred that said that. For all intents and purposes, his words are mere speculation.

As is the 'blackmailed' idea. The only thing we KNOW is that Alfred and Bats believe that the mob recruited him for whatever reason. I personally believe the bank robbery is Joker's way of saying "Hey Batman, I'm here, and I'm such a BAMF, i'm taking on the mob, so you'd better come get me!" The bank manager talks about how criminals 'used to be' and Joker talks about giving them a 'better class of criminal.' I think we're gonna see Joker come in and just rain down on everyone, no matter his supposed allegiances.

BTW: I just wanted to say its very refreshing to be able to talk about this and disagree with someone, yet not resort to childish name calling. so thanks!

 

[shapeshifter]

Not in most versions of his origin, including the original Red Hood story and "The Killing Joke".

I think the only version in which he applies his own hair is Paul Dini & Alex Ross's B&W story, or so I've heard (never read it).

I always figured that he was up to the interpretation of the artist and writer.

 

[magus]

When he said rise, I didn't take it as rise in power, but more as a rise in influence.

Influence and power are complete synonyms in this context. How else would you describe power?

I didn't say he was born as the Joker, but simply interject that because we dont see his 'pre-Joker' life, it takes away a very important human element that we saw it Burton's Joker. The the act that started his persona is less relevant which means the paint/chemical argument is moot.

I understand the logic of this and agree to an extent. I think presenting Joker as a constant is a better way to go than evoking any sympathy from an origin. While Crook is right that not seeing the origin doesn't mean the viewer can't deduce an origin, not actually seeing it, and especially not knowing anything about it, makes the Joker much more frightening, IMO.

BTW: I just wanted to say its very refreshing to be able to talk about this and disagree with someone, yet not resort to childish name calling. so thanks!

There need to be more discussions on the board like that.

 

[Clark Kent]

the paint/chemical argument is moot.

Not quite, not in my opinion. I think if the film makes it obvious that Joker isn't permawhite, then his character has been fundamentally altered.

I always figured that he was up to the interpretation of the artist and writer.

I agree with this, to a certain extent. But I believe that there are certain fundamental principles with every pre-established comic book character that every new artist and writer should stick to. With the Joker, IMO, one of those principles is that he should always be permawhite.

 

[Crook]

When he said rise, I didn't take it as rise in power, but more as a rise in influence. Like this film is about the 'rise' of chaos. I think we assume that Bats is cleaning up the city of crooks one by one and here comes this Joker guy who slowly begins to mess everything up.

Influence and power go hand-in-hand. It results in the acclaim of the individual.

There has been a lot of speculation of the sado/masochist mental state of the Joker where he wants to push Bats to kill him out of some sick pleasure as expressed in some of the comics. I tend to agree with this idea, and thats why he craves the attention.

Yes, and there's also the idea that he's doing what he does to break everything Batman represents. His intro in the mobile trailer indicates a purpose to all this madness, as he's out to crumble the ideology Batman has placed above Gotham. By forcing him to take off his mask, the symbolism of this invincible protector is immediately taken away, and by virtue of that defeat, Joker is left as the lone victor. So in a sense, throughout all this mayhem there is most definitely a mischievous scheme being put into play.

"It's allll....part of the plaaann"

I didn't say he was born as the Joker, but simply interject that because we dont see his 'pre-Joker' life, it takes away a very important human element that we saw it Burton's Joker. The act that started his persona is less relevant which means the paint/chemical argument is moot.

Well again, I bring up that Jack's Joker was far from representing human values. If you can count his need for destruction and massacre as such, then would it not apply to Heath's take as well?

As is the 'blackmailed' idea. The only thing we KNOW is that Alfred and Bats believe that the mob recruited him for whatever reason. I personally believe the bank robbery is Joker's way of saying "Hey Batman, I'm here, and I'm such a BAMF, i'm taking on the mob, so you'd better come get me!" The bank manager talks about how criminals 'used to be' and Joker talks about giving them a 'better class of criminal.' I think we're gonna see Joker come in and just rain down on everyone, no matter his supposed allegiances.

I will agree that he's more than likely playing both sides. At this point, I just do not see Joker becoming a man-for-hire without there being some double-edged sword. The very act of taking the mob's money suggests blackmail, if it's at the beginning of the movie. Surely when the time comes for the mob to face Joker, they'll know about his recent exploits.

BTW: I just wanted to say its very refreshing to be able to talk about this and disagree with someone, yet not resort to childish name calling. so thanks!

No need for the thanks, it's a common courtesy. Likewise to you, nonetheless.

 

[shapeshifter]

Not quite, not in my opinion. I think if the film makes it obvious that Joker isn't permawhite, then his character has been fundamentally altered.



I agree with this, to a certain extent. But I believe that there are certain fundamental principles with every pre-established comic book character that every new artist and writer should stick to. With the Joker, IMO, one of those principles is that he should always be permawhite.

I'm with the white in the comics. I was just saying that I like the idea that he colors his hair himself and does his lips, and not that it was some chemical fluke

 

[Clark Kent]

I like the idea that he colors his hair himself and does his lips, and not that it was some chemical fluke

OK, but that's the way it is in the comics, I'm afraid.

 

[shapeshifter]

OK, but that's the way it is in the comics, I'm afraid.

not in the dark knight returns
or in Alex Ross's interpretations.
I'm just partial I guess
But yeah your right, that is the way it is done in the comics, and I love it, I just like seeing a little artistic license taken with the idea. here and there.

 

[Figs]

This is for Crook and gobrutus.

In that video interview with Eric Roberts, who you know plays Maroni. The interview where he was talking about working with Heath Ledger(during the media around his death), he talked about the scene we saw in the new trailer, where Joker has all the mobsters in that room.

Roberts spilled the beans a little and said

Spoiler

that Joker is in fact blackmailing them

 

[Crook]

Well there ya go. Thanks for the confirmation.

Your check will be in the mail.

 

[Figs]

Well there ya go. Thanks for the confirmation.

Your check will be in the mail.

BONUS!$$$

t:

 

[gobrutus]

haha, nice, but of course i'm gonna have to go with the obligatory link or it didn't happen!!! haha

 

[Figs]

haha, nice, but of course i'm gonna have to go with the obligatory link or it didn't happen!!! haha

I'm having trouble finding it but I believe the interview with him was done on CNN.

 

[jtfaria]

I'm with the white in the comics. I was just saying that I like the idea that he colors his hair himself and does his lips, and not that it was some chemical fluke

I'm with you. To get the white face AND the green hair AND the fire-engine red lips in one go is a bit much. (I mean, what gives you green hair ANYway?)

 

[Crook]

Hint: It's found in the very title of this thread.