Villains that should reform

[LouFerignoDemon]

Man Question, you have a hard on for Nefaria.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Mistress is hilarious. Everytime someone brings up what an ******* Iron Man is she pulls out the "Hes not as bad as____" card.

No, it's the "He's not as bad as ____, who you're hailing as a hero" card.

I do so love half done arguments, they're my favourite.

 

[The Question]

Man Question, you have a hard on for Nefaria.

I'm sorry, but Nefaria deserves better than this ****. He was the head of one of the largest crime families in the United States, is a scientific and tactical genius, and has the power to go toe to toe with the likes of Thor and hold his own. The Kingpin should be ****ing scared of this guy.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I'm sorry, but Nefaria deserves better than this ****. He was the head of one of the largest crime families in the United States, is a scientific and tactical genius, and has the power to go toe to toe with the likes of Thor and hold his own. The Kingpin should be ****ing scared of this guy.

Agreed. I'm just poking fun. t: *Hug.* God knows the guy EASILY handed Iron Man his ass like it was nothing on more than one occassion, the same with the Avengers.

 

[The Question]

Agreed. I'm just poking fun. t: *Hug.* God knows the guy EASILY handed Iron Man his ass like it was nothing on more than one occassion, the same with the Avengers.

Exactly. He took on Thor in one on one combat. The two were evenly matched in all regards. You want to know how The Avengers beat him? The Vision flew up into the upper atmosphere, increased his density to maximum, a level at which he weighs roughly 90 tons, and body slammed into Nefaria at terminal velocity. It took that level of badassery on The Vision's part to bring him down. He should be running organized crime in the U.S.

 

[incurock31]

Does Nefaria still wear that gaudy outfit?
He should change that if he wants to be, like, Kingpin or whatever.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

That Vision maneuver should've only defeated him at less than 50% of his power. But yeah, he's THAT badass.

As for that "gaudy" outfit? I wear ye olde stuff like that, so back off. T.T

 

[Dread]

Truthfully, i'm not up for this reforming villains thing. There aren't that many really good ones anymore as it is. I mean, we haven't had a decent Masters of Evil in years because of the T-Bolts. How about just improving the villains and having them organize like The Society.

Total agreement. Marvel has some great villians, and more of them honestly than DC does, but Marvel seems more willing on relying on the same dozen faces over and over, and blurring the lines between good and evil. Just look at CIVIL WAR.

I would also question The Overlord's assertion about criminals. YES, the vast majority of them lacked education, skills, and oppurtunity. But not all. Think of all the millionare football players who've committed crimes (and that is a LONG list). Or quite a few well educated, seemingly successful men who later were exposed as pedophiles, serial killers or so forth. Dark inner desires can exist regardless of social oppurtunity, and can even defy logic. Sometimes applying reason to unreasonable acts is folly.

I'm with some of the others here that I am getting tired of seeing "reformed" supervillians. Creating new villians is a chore and amping up old ones beyond their stereotypical limitations is apparently even harder. New villians tend to fall by the wayside once their creators leave, and only a handful of writers have the balls to take B and C listers and revamp them, and even THOSE improvements can fall by the wayside when that writer isn't there (Electro is a good example; godly under the pen of some, wimpy under the pen of most). And many times when a new villian or a villian who hasn't made many appearences in years has been off camera but could have potential, they're merely trucked out to die, like Black Tarantula.

This isn't merely a Marvel problem; Conduit back in the 90's had potential for Superman, but he was naturally axed off outright before he could develop. It takes many appearences for villians to improve, and they should. If the villian never improves their game, and thus forces the hero to improve to match them, then the villian becomes pointless, just an excuse for action sequences. I think this to some extent has happened, which is why Marvel seems to believe that having "good vs. evil" stories is old-hat and is fixated on making bad guys good and good guys bad, and blurring the lines.

And THUNDERBOLTS, I'm sorry to say for fans of it, has taken any halfway decent, competant, or challenging villian who wasn't, say, one of the Top 12 A-List world megalomaniacs and just made them anti-heroes or superheroes and drained a good wealth of good opponents from superheroes. Fans of that series go, "Well, make new villians or amp old ones." That almost NEVER, EVER, EV-ER HAPPENS! Name me 10 villians in the past 3 years who have somehow been upgraded or rewritten into being decent (for longer than one writer's arc). You could find a couple, but not 10. Next I'll ask for 10 new villians from the past 3 years who were good or who have at least made B list. You also can't. For the reasons I stated above. Old villians remain stagnant or become THunderbolts, and new villians either suck or go into limbo once their creators leave.

I'd rather have competant villians than yet any more reformed anti-heroes. As much as I cared for "lethal protector" Venom in the 90's, it was not handled very well and the character has NEVER had the same appeal since.

This vaccuum of good adversaries is part of what leads to needing stories like CIVIL WAR to happen to create them in the shells of good heroes, IMO. This is really something I would address as an EIC. Like I would have a creator summit, have my editors and top writers, and hell some of the mid level writers, in a room, dish out a Handbook list of villians and go, "okay, what needs to improve here to make this fella/lady the next 'Purple Man'?" But what do I know? An EIC's real job entails, apparently, stoking the audience's ire for cheap sales and making grade school jokes regarding the competition.

 

[The Question]

Does Nefaria still wear that gaudy outfit?
He should change that if he wants to be, like, Kingpin or whatever.

He's Count Luchino Nefaria. He can rip your intestines out anf strange you to death with them. He can wear whatever the **** he wants.

That Vision maneuver should've only defeated him at less than 50% of his power. But yeah, he's THAT badass.

Most definately.

 

[The Overlord]

I actually had an idea for a new group of Masters. There'd be a core group comprising of Count Nefaria, Green Goblin, Hippolyta, Klaw, Tiger Shark, Taskmaster, and the Abomination. They'd have a huge criminal organization based all around the midwest with with plenty of hitmen, enforcers, and footsoldiers at their disposal. They'd sort of be a blend of the mafia and an terrorist group.



His gear isn't that revolutionary. I doubt he invented many of the chemicals he uses if he invented any of them. And his deployment system is basically a high pressure pump. And really, he didn't come up with most of that stuff until after he was wanted by the police.

No he was a chemist who developed the first super-adhesive and then turned to crime, he invented the super-adhesive before embarking on his criminal career. again, I ask, why is he a criminal when he can sell that super-adhesive for millions of dollars.

 

[The Question]

No he was a chemist who developed the first super-adhesive and then turned to crime, he invented the super-adhesive before embarking on his criminal career. again, I ask, why is he a criminal when he can sell that super-adhesive for millions of dollars.

Maybe he just didn't think he was good enough. Alot of really smart people end up screwing up their lives because, for whatever reason, they never thought they were capable of anything better.

 

[Zoken]

The Rhino. I've never seen him depicted as crazy or cruel (I missed the part where he was temporarily enlightened). Just slow witted and easily manipulated. what if, for once, Peter took pity on Aleksi and helped him out. Think of it as an extention of that concept of "Unintended Consequences" that JMS brought up on his stint on ASM. I see Peter hanging upside down talking with Aleksi about all of this, getting Aleksi to see people just keep using him and hanging him out to dry. Aleksi agrees to go Vil-anon. in the end we see Aleksi mopping a floor in Midtown High, smiling at the kids who go past.

Peter comments to his fellow teacher, "Dual purpose. Aleksi's happy being around kids and doing honest work, and I don't think there's a kid stupid enough to bring a gun in with him working here."

 

[The Overlord]

Maybe he just didn't think he was good enough. Alot of really smart people end up screwing up their lives because, for whatever reason, they never thought they were capable of anything better.

They may have worked as an excuse at first (but even I find that bit doubtiful that he wouldn't have done obvious and sold his glue for millions) but consider his total failure as a criminal, the total lack of respect and outright abuse he has recieved from other villians, why wouldn't he patent his glue and try to make money legitimately? What's his motive for staying criminal after all the failure and abuse when there is possibility he can make millions legitimately? Do you really think any company would care about his criminal record, he has the best glue in the world, that has a million households.

 

[The Overlord]

Total agreement. Marvel has some great villians, and more of them honestly than DC does, but Marvel seems more willing on relying on the same dozen faces over and over, and blurring the lines between good and evil. Just look at CIVIL WAR.

I would also question The Overlord's assertion about criminals. YES, the vast majority of them lacked education, skills, and oppurtunity. But not all. Think of all the millionare football players who've committed crimes (and that is a LONG list). Or quite a few well educated, seemingly successful men who later were exposed as pedophiles, serial killers or so forth. Dark inner desires can exist regardless of social oppurtunity, and can even defy logic. Sometimes applying reason to unreasonable acts is folly.

That's because most of the people you mentioned are psychopaths, that's why they commit crimes (which I already covered in my post about why people become criminals). People who are well off usually only commit white collar or coprate crime, unless they are psychopaths or made their money in orgainized crime, they usually don't knock off banks. they take drugs, but they won't resort bank robbing to feed their habits. Name one modern rich person who knocked over a bank.

The fact is if your a well adjusted person with a high level of education, is fairly well adjusted and has a great talent in science, will tend to try and make money legitimately, rather than become criminals. Seriously Trapster using his glue for crime makes about as much sense as Bill Gates using his computer skills for crime instead of becominjg a billionaire. It makes no sense.
Can you think of any motive for trapster being criminal despite the failure, abuse and huimilation he has suffered during his criminal career, what is motive to stay a criminal.

 

[Artistsean]

I remember reading this Marvel Visions thing where they had Hawkeye become leader of the Thunderbolts, and they would go arounde recruting and reforming villians like Rhino, Stiltman and so on.
I thought they should totally do that.

Then I was thinking they could still do that, just use dead villians. Have a dead hero like Thunderbird (the original who died in his first X-Men appearence) or Hawkeye (since he is still dead).
It could be that whenever a villian dies they get put on the team as their last chance for redemption.

Villians like Cyber, Baron Zemo, the Living Monolith, Destiny, Calisto, Harry Osborne, Kraven, Baron Blood, Mysterio, big time villians, small time villians, even the guy who killed Uncle Ben, they all get forced into the team and MUST complete missions and work together and repay the universe for their crimes.

the team leader, a former hero who died in battle, is given power to control them incase they get out of line. Occassionalloy someone would try to challenge the leader's authority but in the end that villian is removed from the team. Villians would leave the team, going to heaven or the next plain of existance, but some would die too soon or fail to redeem themselves and go to hell or limbo or leave existance forever.
The team roster would always be rotating, with only the leader staying the same the whole time, and even then the leader could eventually be replaced.

The point would be to bring back villians and a hero that were killed off without actually bringing them back to life. AND, it would be a good study in character and character development. Showing a character like Cyber who was a monsterous killer and have him over time become a true hero and good human being.
It would be cool to see him at first be mean and hateful and not care about anything or anyone, and after several storyarcs have him risk his own life to save the lives of his team mates. To see him become like Batman or something.

So thats my idea for Thunderbolts, or a new title I guess, maybe called Redeemers or something. Or Redeemed Souls.

 

[Dread]

That's because most of the people you mentioned are psychopaths, that's why they commit crimes (which I already covered in my post about why people become criminals). People who are well off usually only commit white collar or coprate crime, unless they are psychopaths or made their money in orgainized crime, they usually don't knock off banks. they take drugs, but they won't resort bank robbing to feed their habits. Name one modern rich person who knocked over a bank.

Wynona Ryder shoplifted from a store despite the fact that she is well off. You also never commented on my point about professional atheletes who usually are millionares many times over (who, even after retiring can often get gigs as sports commentators or coaches) who sometimes commit crimes. Robert Blake also famously shot his wife and got off. True, a lot of times these are crimes of passion, but there you go.

The fact is if your a well adjusted person with a high level of education, is fairly well adjusted and has a great talent in science, will tend to try and make money legitimately, rather than become criminals. Seriously Trapster using his glue for crime makes about as much sense as Bill Gates using his computer skills for crime instead of becominjg a billionaire. It makes no sense.
Can you think of any motive for trapster being criminal despite the failure, abuse and huimilation he has suffered during his criminal career, what is motive to stay a criminal.

I guess Trapster is your "special project". I'll put it this way; he'd make more sense than Bullseye.

His motive is that he, like many villians, was created in the 60's and so thus his motives are a bit simplistic when compared to creations made today. Some people have certain skills and they put them to oddly poor uses. Plus, after so long as a criminal it may be hard for him to be taken seriously as a legit person. Besides, adhesives can only take you so far. Spidey once tried to sell his web formula back in some old ASM issues (he'd quit for an issue after May had a heart attack and wanted to cash in), and they declined when it was temporary, maybe they wouldn't hear Trapster out properly afterwards. Who knows. I didn't create Trapster. But at this point he's a convicted murdered (he killed Joey Z after all, right) so unless he made a deal with Stark, he's stuck. Maybe he gets a power trip from it, who knows.

 

[3dman27]

The Rhino. I've never seen him depicted as crazy or cruel (I missed the part where he was temporarily enlightened). Just slow witted and easily manipulated. what if, for once, Peter took pity on Aleksi and helped him out. Think of it as an extention of that concept of "Unintended Consequences" that JMS brought up on his stint on ASM. I see Peter hanging upside down talking with Aleksi about all of this, getting Aleksi to see people just keep using him and hanging him out to dry. Aleksi agrees to go Vil-anon. in the end we see Aleksi mopping a floor in Midtown High, smiling at the kids who go past.

Peter comments to his fellow teacher, "Dual purpose. Aleksi's happy being around kids and doing honest work, and I don't think there's a kid stupid enough to bring a gun in with him working here."

therecent spider-man novel the darkest hours went with this concept

 

[The Question]

That's because most of the people you mentioned are psychopaths, that's why they commit crimes (which I already covered in my post about why people become criminals). People who are well off usually only commit white collar or coprate crime, unless they are psychopaths or made their money in orgainized crime, they usually don't knock off banks. they take drugs, but they won't resort bank robbing to feed their habits. Name one modern rich person who knocked over a bank.

But the Trapster is not and has never been well off.

The fact is if your a well adjusted person

He's a hired killer. How the hell is he a well adjusted person?

with a high level of education, is fairly well adjusted and has a great talent in science, will tend to try and make money legitimately, rather than become criminals.

And The Trapster didn't. I have no idea what was going on in his head when he decided to become a criminal. Most likely, his inventions were simply improvements on pre-existing technology that had little other purposes besides being weapons.

Seriously Trapster using his glue for crime makes about as much sense as Bill Gates using his computer skills for crime instead of becominjg a billionaire. It makes no sense.
Can you think of any motive for trapster being criminal despite the failure, abuse and huimilation he has suffered during his criminal career, what is motive to stay a criminal.

Like I said, he probably didn't think he was good enough to be anything else. The reason alot of really smart people turn out bad is because they have low self esteem. People always told them they weren't worthy anything, and they believed it. As for why he's still a criminal, simple: He's a convicted killer on the run from the law. There is no turning back now.

 

[Dwarf lord]

I recently saw the new T-Bolts line up and I'm f***in' excited. It looks and reminds me so much of Suicide Squad and Secret Six. I love getting back issues of the old Suicide Squad series and I currently am enjoying Secret Six. Marvel found a way to get me to pick this up not in trade. How does this have to do with the topic you asked? It will probably deal with a slight reform of Bullseye, Green Goblin and Venom, which will be interesting to see, seeing as their some of Marvel's biggest villains

 

[The Overlord]

But the Trapster is not and has never been well off.



He's a hired killer. How the hell is he a well adjusted person?



And The Trapster didn't. I have no idea what was going on in his head when he decided to become a criminal. Most likely, his inventions were simply improvements on pre-existing technology that had little other purposes besides being weapons.



Like I said, he probably didn't think he was good enough to be anything else. The reason alot of really smart people turn out bad is because they have low self esteem. People always told them they weren't worthy anything, and they believed it. As for why he's still a criminal, simple: He's a convicted killer on the run from the law. There is no turning back now.

Who has Trapster ever killed? Besides Beetle killed someone and he reformed, so what's stopping Trapster from doing the same thing?

Besides tell me why an super-adhesive would work better an a weapon rather than the millions of house hold and industrial uses it had. Tons of inventions are merely improvements over what someone else made, the guy who makes the best clock in the world will become a millionaire, even if the clock is not an original invention. Trapster created the best adhesive in the world, that is worth millions right there.

Besides you haven't answered the question, why is he a hired killer? Seriously what was motive for becomming a criminal. A lot of people have low self esteem, but they don't use million dollars ideas to knock over banks. Seriously what's a better way to feel better about yourself, knocking over banks in a stupid costume and getting laughed at or have millions of dollars and trophy wife. Everyone would pick the second option, not first. Trapster needa a better motive, because all we have now is:

Trapster: Ha, ha, ha! I'm the Trapster, I am a criminal who commits crimes because.... uh.... did I mention I'm the Trapster?

That just makes for a very lame and one dimensional villain.

 

[The Question]

Who has Trapster ever killed?

Norman Osborn hired him to kill a drug dealer and frame Spider-Man for it. Plus, he's been working as more of an enforcer/hitman than a thief as of late.

Besides Beetle killed someone and he reformed, so what's stopping Trapster from doing the same thing?

If memory serves, Jenkins got a government pardon. Those aren't easy to get.

Besides tell me why an super-adhesive would work better an a weapon rather than the millions of house hold and industrial uses it had. Tons of inventions are merely improvements over what someone else made, the guy who makes the best clock in the world will become a millionaire, even if the clock is not an original invention. Trapster created the best adhesive in the world, that is worth millions right there.

Who says that he invented his adhesives? Maybe he just weaponized pre-existing chemicals.

Besides you haven't answered the question, why is he a hired killer? Seriously what was motive for becomming a criminal. A lot of people have low self esteem, but they don't use million dollars ideas to knock over banks. Seriously what's a better way to feel better about yourself, knocking over banks in a stupid costume and getting laughed at or have millions of dollars and trophy wife.

Like I said, alot of really smart people who could be highly succesful end up being thieves, junkies, or gang members because they just don't think they're good enough to be anything but.

 

[Anubis]

How about we try thinking about somebody else to Reform. How about Cardiac or whatever his name is.

 

[Tokyo Vigilante #1]

I feel enough villains have "reformed" for now.

If other villains were to try it for a brief period then that's fine. Maybe Constrictor joins Shield for a few missions before deciding, "You know what? This just isn't me." And screws everyone over. Or maybe having some masterplan to screw everyone over to begin with. That's fine.

Or maybe, to give the villains more personality, they have brief moments of heroics. Like that Silver Surfer issue during the IG crossover where the world looked like it was going to end and Rhino released all the animals from the NYC zoo to give them one last moment of freedom. Okay the idea was a bit dumb, but we're talking about Rhino and it did reveal a sweat side.

I don't want to see Electro turn into a full-blown hero. However, if he's working for Hydra for a while and doing some dirty deed until they ask him to something that crosses a moral line for him. Let's say Max was okay with stealing some money here and there for the group, but when he's asked to hijack a school bus full of kids he puts his foot down and says no. From there he quits and tries to warn some heroes to stop the event. And if that doesn't work he deals with it himself.

Electro can still be shown as a villain, but not without a shread of humanity. Those brief moments of humanity can make for great stories. The full on reform idea seems to have run it's course in Thunderbolts. The first volume of it at least.

 

[The Question]

How about we try thinking about somebody else to Reform. How about Cardiac or whatever his name is.

Cardiac's not really a villain. He's The Punisher with electric powers.

 

[The Overlord]

Wynona Ryder shoplifted from a store despite the fact that she is well off. You also never commented on my point about professional atheletes who usually are millionares many times over (who, even after retiring can often get gigs as sports commentators or coaches) who sometimes commit crimes. Robert Blake also famously shot his wife and got off. True, a lot of times these are crimes of passion, but there you go.


I guess Trapster is your "special project". I'll put it this way; he'd make more sense than Bullseye.

His motive is that he, like many villians, was created in the 60's and so thus his motives are a bit simplistic when compared to creations made today. Some people have certain skills and they put them to oddly poor uses. Plus, after so long as a criminal it may be hard for him to be taken seriously as a legit person. Besides, adhesives can only take you so far. Spidey once tried to sell his web formula back in some old ASM issues (he'd quit for an issue after May had a heart attack and wanted to cash in), and they declined when it was temporary, maybe they wouldn't hear Trapster out properly afterwards. Who knows. I didn't create Trapster. But at this point he's a convicted murdered (he killed Joey Z after all, right) so unless he made a deal with Stark, he's stuck. Maybe he gets a power trip from it, who knows.

Wynona Ryder was kleptomaniac and likely got a thrill from stealing stuff. Besides shop lifting carries a much lighter punishment than bank robbery. Again kleptomania would explain why someone like Catwoman was a criminal, not Trapster. Robert Blake commited a crime of passion, didn't make a career out of knocking off banks.

Bullseye is a criminal because he is a psychopath-sadist, that's what a lot of assissins and serial killers are in real life. He cares more about killing people than he does making money. Plus at least he has a ton of money and respect from the underworld. That makes more sense than Trapster, who contiues to be criminal despite being a total failure at it.

A lot of villains who created in the 50s and 60s and had dodegey motives, had their back story expanded in the 80s and 90s to give them a motive. after the "Obit for an Octopus" story from the early 90s, I can better understand why Octavious is a criminal. Likewise after Mr. Freeze was given the frozen the wife, we better understood why he is a criminal. Trapster was never given an expanded backstory, all we get is this:

Trapster: Ha, ha, ha! I'm the Trapster, I am a criminal who commits crimes because.... uh.... did I mention I'm the Trapster?

That just makes for a very lame and one dimensional villain. Frankly since Trapster adhesives have far more uses than Spidey's webbing, consdering they don't disolve in a hour. Also frankly I doubt Trapster is on power trip, he is considered a joke by everyone and all his "friends" in the super villain community (from Shocker to the Wizard) have turned against him and tried to kill him. Also Beetle once killed someone, but reformed and is now a member of the Thunderbolts, why can't Trapster do the same?

There a lot of godd mtovies for beiong a super villain: your too too evil, insane, psychopathic to do good (Green Goblin, Bullseye), your an idiot (Rhino and Electro), you suffered a tragic event that makes you villainious (Magneto being a Holocaust survivor) or you get a thrill out of being a criminal do it for that reason instead of profit (Catwoman, Flash Rogues). Trapster doesn't fit into any of those motives, so he comes across as a lame criminal with no motive.