Villains that should reform

[The Question]

No, let's not have some grand supervillian plot, let's just have Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic ACT like some.

Well, like I said, I really don't think a grand evil plot would work in the context of Civil War. I mean, a registration act, in of itself, wouldn't really benifit the criminal element at all. There's no way anyone in the MU would have expected both sides to completely over react.

 

[The Overlord]

To be fair, DC plays the "make any villian who even begins to become cool or competant into an anti-hero" card a lot less frequently than Marvel does, especially since the SUICIDE SQUAD spent years on the shelf. They have a buttload of villians who have remained as such without flexing. However, Marvel's tend to be more interesting, a shame they aren't capitilized on more often lately. No, let's not have some grand supervillian plot, let's just have Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic ACT like some.

What about Catwoman and ton of the Flash Rogues (Piper, Heatwave, etc)? A lot of DC villains reformed. Villain reformations can be very interesting when done correctly and can be a pain when done incorrectly (like Venom)

Now see that's one thing I don't really care for. I think heroes should spend more time fighting villains rather than other heroes, it makes the heroes like kinda dumb when they fight eachother. You would think they would learn to work together after 40 years plus. Plus it seems like Zemo is the only one capitalizing on Civil war, no other villains are taking advantage (granted a lot of them have been drafted by Zemo, but still, you would think the Mad Thinker or Red Skull or someone take advantage of the stituation.

 

[The Overlord]

Well, like I said, I really don't think a grand evil plot would work in the context of Civil War. I mean, a registration act, in of itself, wouldn't really benifit the criminal element at all. There's no way anyone in the MU would have expected both sides to completely over react.

Still, why aren't more super villains taking advantage of this. The only one doing so is Zemo, why haven't the mad thinker or someone else made a move?

 

[The Overlord]

I still find it highly unlikely that any police department would support someone who's essentially a serial killer.

Well then you haven't been reading Punisher for the last six years.


And who would those be, besides the Wizard?

Norman Osborn (an employer) and Shocker (an ally) have also turned against him. What allies does he have left in the super villain community, besides maybe Sandman?

Maybe it's just impossible. Or, maybe he could, but the process would be too expensive to be practical.

Why do you know its impossible?


The Human Torch was the first guy to collar him. He wanted revenge. He's rarely atacked the FF since, besides a few times when he did wit with The Wizard out of a sense of loyalty to him. I doubt that would happen again.

He still picks fights with guys who are tougher than him, like the thing and Spider-man recently. He can't even get bullying down correctly.

Maybe because he wants to prove himself? Besides, he's been a bit more low profile since his Frightful Four days.

Prove himself to a bunch of jerks who abuse him and tried to kill him. seriously is he a masochoist?

He killed five assassins sent after him by Norman Osborn in a few minutes by filling their windpipes with glue.

What kind of assassins, are they above the cannon fodder level? How amy times has taken out the target he was hired to kill?

Yes, he is pathetic. Why is that a bad thing character wise? That actually opens the door to some interesting character developement.

Really now, what do you think people want to read about villains who provide villains who provide a look into the nature of evil or have a a sense of honour and conflicted morals or the guy whose gimmck is he's pathetic. I guess don't want to red about Joker evil insanity or magneto's conflicted morals, when they can read about trapster, the total loser who likely shouldn't have been a criminal in the first place. seems like his motive is a lack of common sense.

Not if they're trying to prove themselves or get revenge. And, like I said, he's been alot more low profile as of late.

If he wanted to mantain a real low profile he would move Boston and be criminal there. Seriously that would make more sense then what he does.


I do. Not every villain has to be a complete success. I mean, that's actually what makes Petruski kind of deep. He's a failure at alot of things. He turns to crime because he doesn't see himself at being anything better and because he wants to get back at the world. He gets his ass kicked and gets arrested. He tris to get revenge, and fails. He vents his anger by hurting people, becoming a hitman. He eventually gets beaten again, and vents his furthur anger by hurting more people, thus sinking even furthur. That sounds like a pretty interesting character to me.

That just makes him a fool, some character development is having him realize he's going nowhere in life and try to change it, in any way. seriously only an idiot doesn't learn from their mistakes, it makes for a very shallow character. Besides the low self esteem thing has been done better by a whole bunch of villains : Electro once treid to blow himself up to get attention and be remembered, Abomination (whose appearance is reflection of his own self loathing) once felt he had hide from the surface world and seek accpetance amongst the homeless living in the sewers. Seriously those are way better tales of villains with low self esteem then anything you have suggested with Trapster. frankly low self esteem is a hard trait to explot in a villain and its been done far better in other villains, Trapster is schmuk compared Electro or Abomination and their dealings with self loathing. Why not give him some character development, instead of having repeat the same mistake over and over again?

 

[The Question]

Well then you haven't been reading Punisher for the last six years.

And I'm assuming that Punisher, for the last six years, has had a completely idiotic veiw of the police department.

Norman Osborn (an employer) and Shocker (an ally) have also turned against him. What allies does he have left in the super villain community, besides maybe Sandman?

Normon Osborn wasn't a friend. He was someone hiring him. He had to expect the possibility of being betrayed by someone hiring him to kill someone else.

Why do you know its impossible?

I didn't say I knew anything. I said "maybe."

He still picks fights with guys who are tougher than him, like the thing and Spider-man recently. He can't even get bullying down correctly.

Who said he's trying to bully them? He was hired by the Maggia to blow up The Thing's new building. And he did bring along Sandman, someone who is equal to The Thing in strength. So it's not like he came unprepared.

Prove himself to a bunch of jerks who abuse him and tried to kill him. seriously is he a masochoist?

No. Just to prove himself. Why the hell do you think he's a masochist just because his only option left is crime?

What kind of assassins, are they above the cannon fodder level?

He still killed five guys in only a few minutes. That's pretty damn impressive.

How amy times has taken out the target he was hired to kill?

I really don't know.

Really now, what do you think people want to read about villains who provide villains who provide a look into the nature of evil or have a a sense of honour and conflicted morals or the guy whose gimmck is he's pathetic.

1) It's not his gimick. It's simply his nature as a character.

2) Why not both? I mean, there is a thing called variety.

I guess don't want to red about Joker evil insanity or magneto's conflicted morals, when they can read about trapster, the total loser who likely shouldn't have been a criminal in the first place. seems like his motive is a lack of common sense.

No, they're just spectacular. Besides, you're not even giving it a chance. You're assuming that there's no way he could be written in an interesting way, and yet I think a story about someone who's life has completely gone out of his control and who's become a violent thug simply to feel better about his shortcomings is very interesting under the proper writer.

That just makes him a fool, some character development is having him realize he's going nowhere in life and try to change it, in any way.

You obviously haven't been listening to me at all. He can't change his life. He's wanted for a very high profile murder, is a suspect in at least five others, and is also wanted for atempting to blow up a New York City youth center and a plethora of robberies. He's sunk too deep to turn back now.

seriously only an idiot doesn't learn from their mistakes, it makes for a very shallow character.

Having poor common sense doesn't make him a shallow character at all.

Besides the low self esteem thing has been done better by a whole bunch of villains

That's because very few people have ever given the Trapster a chance. The only time in recent memory that he was written particularly well, I think, was in the Spider-Man: Identity Crisis arc. Besides that, no one wants to even give him a chance.

Seriously those are way better tales of villains with low self esteem then anything you have suggested with Trapster. frankly low self esteem is a hard trait to explot in a villain and its been done far better in other villains, Trapster is schmuk compared Electro or Abomination and their dealings with self loathing.

Again, that's only because people refuse to actually give him a chance.

Why not give him some character development, instead of having repeat the same mistake over and over again?

That's what I have been suggesting. Like I said, he no longer has any choice but to continue being a criminal. He's a wanted criminal who's face has been all over the news.

 

[The Overlord]

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And I'm assuming that Punisher, for the last six years, has had a completely idiotic veiw of the police department.

Your comapring regular NYC, with MU NYC, big mistake,

Normon Osborn wasn't a friend. He was someone hiring him. He had to expect the possibility of being betrayed by someone hiring him to kill someone else.

Why would he contiue a a hitman if two of his employers already tired to kill him. If he were smart he would take counter measures by now.


I didn't say I knew anything. I said "maybe."
And maybe not, he may very well could have made at on money of that and think considering he is one of the leading experts on adhesives in the world, I see no reason why he couldn't do that.
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Who said he's trying to bully them? He was hired by the Maggia to blow up The Thing's new building. And he did bring along Sandman, someone who is equal to The Thing in strength. So it's not like he came unprepared.

Why not try and kill some businessmen instead? seriously, if he has low esteem, you would think he would stick with targewts who couldn't fight back.

No. Just to prove himself. Why the hell do you think he's a masochist just because his only option left is crime?

Its that's not a criminal, its the type of criminal he is. Why doesn't he move to Boston and be a criminal there? Considering how ineffective the police are in comics, he may have shot there, that's better than picking fighyts with guys he can't beat. seriously Stan Lee said interesting conflicts come from the villain being more powerful than the hero and the hero hgaving to work for their victory. With trapster you wonder why the Hell is taking on Spider-man or the Thing, is he stupid or something?
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He still killed five guys in only a few minutes. That's pretty damn impressive.

Cannon fodder, anyone in comics can kill cannon fodder. Unless he has good sucess rate against the targets he's hired to take out, no one will care.



I really don't know.

[/COLOR]

1) It's not his gimick. It's simply his nature as a character.

And its a really boring nature at that.

2) Why not both? I mean, there is a thing called variety.

Well tell many kids are going to excited to pick up comics with trapster, the villain whose only trait is low self esteem, instead of comics that feature villains with much more interesting character traits? That's an easy choice for a kid with 5 bucks.


No, they're just spectacular. Besides, you're not even giving it a chance. You're assuming that there's no way he could be written in an interesting way, and yet I think a story about someone who's life has completely gone out of his control and who's become a violent thug simply to feel better about his shortcomings is very interesting under the proper writer.

That's his problem he's just a petty thug, their a dime a doesen in comics, frankly there are petty thugs who are far interesting than him. frankly their petty thugs with self esteem issues that are far interesting then him. You have presented nothing new or unique that sets Trapseter apart from the millions of others petty thugs in MU. Hell petty thugs are not interesting in real life.

You obviously haven't been listening to me at all. He can't change his life. He's wanted for a very high profile murder, is a suspect in at least five others, and is also wanted for atempting to blow up a New York City youth center and a plethora of robberies. He's sunk too deep to turn back now.

And he can't move to Boston and be a criminal there because...


Having poor common sense doesn't make him a shallow character at all.

Lack of common sense only works for villains in comedies, not serious villains.

That's because very few people have ever given the Trapster a chance. The only time in recent memory that he was written particularly well, I think, was in the Spider-Man: Identity Crisis arc. Besides that, no one wants to even give him a chance.

You haven't given me a reason to give him a chance, all you presented was a petty thug with self issues, nothing about that makes him unique or a cut above any other petty thug in MU. Petty thugs are not interesting overall, IMO

Again, that's only because people refuse to actually give him a chance.



That's what I have been suggesting. Like I said, he no longer has any choice but to continue being a criminal. He's a wanted criminal who's face has been all over the news.

No you keepp sduggesting that keep on digging this hole he's gotten himself into. I'm suggesting he should do something different , stop digging, try and get over his self esteem problems. What's wrong with a little character growth.

 

[The Question]

Your comapring regular NYC, with MU NYC, big mistake,

No, it's not. Because a police department is still a police department. And no police department would ever support the actions of someone like The Punisher. So, I feel that I'm being quite fair when I say that Ennis' version of the NYPD is bull****.

Why would he contiue a a hitman if two of his employers already tired to kill him. If he were smart he would take counter measures by now.

Hitmen have to expect the possibility of being betrayed by their employers. It's the nature of the job.

And maybe not, he may very well could have made at on money of that and think considering he is one of the leading experts on adhesives in the world, I see no reason why he couldn't do that.

And I see no reason that it couldn't be said that he doesn't because such a process would be far to expensive to be practical.

Why not try and kill some businessmen instead? seriously, if he has low esteem, you would think he would stick with targewts who couldn't fight back.

Because he wanted revenge on The Human Torch for stopping his first heist. And he only went after The Thing, with the help of Sanmdan, mind you, so he wasn't ill prepared, because the mob payed him to.

Its that's not a criminal, its the type of criminal he is. Why doesn't he move to Boston and be a criminal there?

Why doesn't every criminal in NYC move to Boston? If you apply that arguement to The Trapster, you have to apply it to every other villain in the MU.

Considering how ineffective the police are in comics,

Since when are the police ineffective?

he may have shot there, that's better than picking fighyts with guys he can't beat. seriously Stan Lee said interesting conflicts come from the villain being more powerful than the hero and the hero hgaving to work for their victory. With trapster you wonder why the Hell is taking on Spider-man or the Thing, is he stupid or something?

Why can't the interesting conflict be on the part of the villain for once?

Cannon fodder, anyone in comics can kill cannon fodder. Unless he has good sucess rate against the targets he's hired to take out, no one will care.

That's a stupid arguement. He killed five people. The police care.

And its a really boring nature at that.

No, it's not. Not every criminal has to be insanely succesful or a criminal mastermind to be an interesting character.

Well tell many kids are going to excited to pick up comics with trapster, the villain whose only trait is low self esteem, instead of comics that feature villains with much more interesting character traits? That's an easy choice for a kid with 5 bucks.

Being a succesful and well adjusted human being doesn't make a character especially more interesting than someone who's a messed up failure. If he's written properly, The Trapster can be a very deep and interesting character.

That's his problem he's just a petty thug, their a dime a doesen in comics, frankly there are petty thugs who are far interesting than him. frankly their petty thugs with self esteem issues that are far interesting then him.

That's because no one gives him a chance. Alot of people have the same aditude you do: He's the Trapster, he sucks, I ain't touching him. If someone actually took the time to try and do something good with him as a character, we might get somewhere. It's not The Trapster who's flawed. It's the aditude alot of people have about him.

And he can't move to Boston and be a criminal there because...

And The Shocker, The Rhino, Electro, Dr. Octopus, Bullseye, The Owl, Hammerhead, The Scoprion, Green Goblin, The Vulture, Sandman, and every other non cosmic villain in the Marvel Universe can't move to Boston because...

Lack of common sense only works for villains in comedies, not serious villains.

That's not true at all. You're thinking from the standpoint of "succesful villain = good character." And that's not true. Good character = good character.

You haven't given me a reason to give him a chance, all you presented was a petty thug with self issues, nothing about that makes him unique or a cut above any other petty thug in MU. Petty thugs are not interesting overall, IMO

You haven't given a reason not to give him a chance. All you say is that he's a pathetic, low level villain. Yes, that's true. But someone could work with that and make it into something great.

No you keepp sduggesting that keep on digging this hole he's gotten himself into. I'm suggesting he should do something different , stop digging, try and get over his self esteem problems. What's wrong with a little character growth.

Nothing at all. And I've even suggested that. But you obviously haven't been listening to me. He can't get out of crime now. He's too deep in it to get himself out.

 

[The Question]

Well, like I said, I really don't think a grand evil plot would work in the context of Civil War. I mean, a registration act, in of itself, wouldn't really benifit the criminal element at all. There's no way anyone in the MU would have expected both sides to completely over react.

You know, on second thought, it would make alot of sense if it were revealed that someone like Purple Man has been manipulating the heroes' minds. He didn't cause the Standford incident, nor did he cause the registration act to come into being. But, he did manipulating both sides into extreme over reaction, which has caused all the chaos we've seen thus far.

 

[Dread]

What about Catwoman and ton of the Flash Rogues (Piper, Heatwave, etc)? A lot of DC villains reformed. Villain reformations can be very interesting when done correctly and can be a pain when done incorrectly (like Venom)

Now see that's one thing I don't really care for. I think heroes should spend more time fighting villains rather than other heroes, it makes the heroes like kinda dumb when they fight eachother. You would think they would learn to work together after 40 years plus. Plus it seems like Zemo is the only one capitalizing on Civil war, no other villains are taking advantage (granted a lot of them have been drafted by Zemo, but still, you would think the Mad Thinker or Red Skull or someone take advantage of the stituation.

Catwoman has had a bit of a sordid history. Pre-Crisis she turned into a bit of a love interest and romance figure for Batman, and after she has shifted. Isn't she still a thief, though? The fact that she has an ongoing also helps.

The point is, if you reform some villians, you need to create others to take their place. Marvel isn't doing that. Otherwise, why have they never gotten a competant Masters of Evil after the Thunderbolts? Why must Magneto keep getting trucked out for the billionth time? Why has Norman Osborn, post resurrection, become an almost satiric cliche? So I'd rather not see a buttload of villians become anti-heroes when all that means to me is Rhino needing to take their place and get jobbed all the time, or something.

FYI, the Red Skull is doing stuff in a new body in CAPTAIN AMERICA, and Mad Thinker, along with Puppet Master, actually are capitilizing. They worked together to stage an explosion during the last two issues of FF that they hoped would kill some "captured superheroes" but instead killed a Yancy Streeter when Thing intervened, earning both his vengence and his retirement from heroics.

You know, on second thought, it would make alot of sense if it were revealed that someone like Purple Man has been manipulating the heroes' minds. He didn't cause the Standford incident, nor did he cause the registration act to come into being. But, he did manipulating both sides into extreme over reaction, which has caused all the chaos we've seen thus far.

The aforementioned Mad Thinker's entire schtick is being able to make almost-psychic-esque predictions about people and events. And unlike Purple Man, he's actually showed up so far, alongside Puppet Master, and neither are Thunderbolts yet. Heck, the pair were manipulating events during the last issues of FF.

Granted, Marvel's EIC and writers have sworn up and down that they wouldn't use "a supervillian cop-out" for the finale of CW. But that said, if there was such a scheme, I'd deny it too to keep it a surprise. Otherwise you have a lot of heroes who are, as mentioned, overreacting and behaving horribly out of character.

 

[The Question]

The aforementioned Mad Thinker's entire schtick is being able to make almost-psychic-esque predictions about people and events. And unlike Purple Man, he's actually showed up so far, alongside Puppet Master, and neither are Thunderbolts yet. Heck, the pair were manipulating events during the last issues of FF.

Granted, Marvel's EIC and writers have sworn up and down that they wouldn't use "a supervillian cop-out" for the finale of CW. But that said, if there was such a scheme, I'd deny it too to keep it a surprise. Otherwise you have a lot of heroes who are, as mentioned, overreacting and behaving horribly out of character.

It really works, I think. The Stamford incident happens, and congress passess the registration act. Some villain, probably the Mad Thinker as you mentioned, realizes that such an act will obviously ruffle some feathers, and that with the proper push, it could turn from a heated political debate to a second civil war. So, he tapps the Pupet Master, and the two of them start manipulating Tony Stark, Captain America, SHEILD Director Maria Hill, and other key individuals into taking their reactions to the act to their illogical extremes, thus creating mass chaos.

 

[The Overlord]

Catwoman has had a bit of a sordid history. Pre-Crisis she turned into a bit of a love interest and romance figure for Batman, and after she has shifted. Isn't she still a thief, though? The fact that she has an ongoing also helps.

The point is, if you reform some villians, you need to create others to take their place. Marvel isn't doing that. Otherwise, why have they never gotten a competant Masters of Evil after the Thunderbolts? Why must Magneto keep getting trucked out for the billionth time? Why has Norman Osborn, post resurrection, become an almost satiric cliche? So I'd rather not see a buttload of villians become anti-heroes when all that means to me is Rhino needing to take their place and get jobbed all the time, or something.


FYI, the Red Skull is doing stuff in a new body in CAPTAIN AMERICA, and Mad Thinker, along with Puppet Master, actually are capitilizing. They worked together to stage an explosion during the last two issues of FF that they hoped would kill some "captured superheroes" but instead killed a Yancy Streeter when Thing intervened, earning both his vengence and his retirement from heroics.


The aforementioned Mad Thinker's entire schtick is being able to make almost-psychic-esque predictions about people and events. And unlike Purple Man, he's actually showed up so far, alongside Puppet Master, and neither are Thunderbolts yet. Heck, the pair were manipulating events during the last issues of FF.

Granted, Marvel's EIC and writers have sworn up and down that they wouldn't use "a supervillian cop-out" for the finale of CW. But that said, if there was such a scheme, I'd deny it too to keep it a surprise. Otherwise you have a lot of heroes who are, as mentioned, overreacting and behaving horribly out of character.

There are a ton of B-List villains that could be used, frankly none of the Thunderbolts villains had personalities beyond generic criminals, but others: Mr. Hyde, Controller, King Cobra, the Ghost, Living Laser, Bushwacker, Count Nefaria and a ton of other B list villains are interesting and have motives and easily take the place of any reformed villains. Who said anything about being an anti hero, why can't someone like Stilt-Man, who is a bad criminal, has no motive and gets beaten often, become a civilian, instead of being a punching bag all the time. besides the only reason we haven't seen a good new MoE is laziness, its not the Thunderbolts fault, exactly why do the thunderbolts prevent another threatening MoE from forming?

 

[The Question]

I think the reason you and I are disagreeing, Overlord, is due to our expectations. You're thinking pf using The Trapster as a villain in a series where another character, a hero, is the main focus. Most of my ideas have The Trapster in a book where he is one of the main recurring characters.

 

[The Overlord]

I think the reason you and I are disagreeing, Overlord, is due to our expectations. You're thinking pf using The Trapster as a villain in a series where another character, a hero, is the main focus. Most of my ideas have The Trapster in a book where he is one of the main recurring characters.

The character has no chache with me, he isn't even a lovabe loser like Rhino or an evil loser like Ultimate Mr. Sinister, he's just a loser, with no other defining character traits. Seriously you pitched the same idea with Stilt-Man is your just repeating yourself, I didn't like the idea then and I don't like it now, being a loser in of itself does not make for interesting character, he needs a character trait besides low esteem to be interesting. He isn't professional like Shocker (who at least has a code and doesn't break it by killing civilains or cops) or a character you can feel sorry for like Rhino, who commits crimes to provide for his family back in Russia.

There are far more interesting loser characters out thewre and i haven't done anything to convince that trapster would be a interesting one. Either give him something besides self esteem problems, ghave him get over his self esteem problems or ditch him and send him into limbo. character who just a loser and just sends all his time being angry about being a loser, is not interesting to me.

 

[toya thegr8]

The Craptastic Four from the Daughters of the Dragon mini. Mediocre villians but possibly powerful heroes?

 

[3dman27]

The Craptastic Four from the Daughters of the Dragon mini. Mediocre villians but possibly powerful heroes?

i missed thad mini could you explain please?

 

[The Question]

The character has no chache with me, he isn't even a lovabe loser like Rhino or an evil loser like Ultimate Mr. Sinister, he's just a loser, with no other defining character traits. Seriously you pitched the same idea with Stilt-Man is your just repeating yourself, I didn't like the idea then and I don't like it now, being a loser in of itself does not make for interesting character, he needs a character trait besides low esteem to be interesting. He isn't professional like Shocker (who at least has a code and doesn't break it by killing civilains or cops) or a character you can feel sorry for like Rhino, who commits crimes to provide for his family back in Russia.

You want to know why that is? Because people have the same aditude you do and won't give him a chance. The Rhino and The Shocker were both much less well defined before someone came along and said "You know, with a little work, these guys wouldn't be hald bad." And now their cult favorites amung Marvel fans. Like I said, I'm not thinking of The Trapster as a major villain in Spider-Man or anything. I'm thinking of him being in a continuing series where he is one of the central characters, in which is violent and somewhat self destructive aditudes would be adressed.

There are far more interesting loser characters out thewre and i haven't done anything to convince that trapster would be a interesting one. Either give him something besides self esteem problems, ghave him get over his self esteem problems or ditch him and send him into limbo. character who just a loser and just sends all his time being angry about being a loser, is not interesting to me.

That is a terrible aditude to have about any character. If everyone had it, then we wouldn't have Captain Cold, Catman, The Shocker, Purple Man, and a plethora of other characters around today.

 

[LadyMoira]

I always wanted Moonstone to recover and start working for the good guys.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

^Ditto. She's always been my fave Thunderbolt aside from Amazon.

 

[The Overlord]

You want to know why that is? Because people have the same aditude you do and won't give him a chance. The Rhino and The Shocker were both much less well defined before someone came along and said "You know, with a little work, these guys wouldn't be hald bad." And now their cult favorites amung Marvel fans. Like I said, I'm not thinking of The Trapster as a major villain in Spider-Man or anything. I'm thinking of him being in a continuing series where he is one of the central characters, in which is violent and somewhat self destructive aditudes would be adressed.



That is a terrible aditude to have about any character. If everyone had it, then we wouldn't have Captain Cold, Catman, The Shocker, Purple Man, and a plethora of other characters around today.

You haven't given me a reason to care about him, you haven't given a good reason why his self esteem resulted in putting on a stupid costume and being a punching bag. Look at Rainbow raider, Johns felt he could do nothing with him and killed him off, how is Trapster eally a better character than rainbow raider. besides most of the characters you emntioned became your evil or more honourable not more pathetic (purple man became more evil, Cold and catman became more honourable, even Shocker became more professional, though he still needs more work) all your suggestions is Trapster has self esteem problems, that doesn't make respect him or hate him or even find him interesting, it makes him have contempt for him. Also considering your reclying the same idea you had with Stilt-Man, it seems like your trying to fit the same idea into many different characters. You want me to give him a chance, explain why I should, there a about a billion B list villains I would revamp before giving Trapster the time of day.

 

[toya thegr8]

i missed thad mini could you explain please?

It was Freezer Burn, 8-Ball, Humbug and Whirlwind. They couldn't get away with stealing candy from a baby if their lives depended on it.

 

[The Question]

You haven't given me a reason to care about him, you haven't given a good reason why his self esteem resulted in putting on a stupid costume and being a punching bag. Look at Rainbow raider, Johns felt he could do nothing with him and killed him off, how is Trapster eally a better character than rainbow raider. besides most of the characters you emntioned became your evil or more honourable not more pathetic (purple man became more evil, Cold and catman became more honourable, even Shocker became more professional, though he still needs more work) all your suggestions is Trapster has self esteem problems, that doesn't make respect him or hate him or even find him interesting, it makes him have contempt for him. Also considering your reclying the same idea you had with Stilt-Man, it seems like your trying to fit the same idea into many different characters. You want me to give him a chance, explain why I should, there a about a billion B list villains I would revamp before giving Trapster the time of day.

First of all, my aproach to The Trapster and Stilt Man would not be the same. Similar? Yes. But they're not the same character. Stilt Man, way I see it, isa reluctant criminal. He became one out of desperation and now he's just trying to do the best with what he has. Trapster's a fellow who let his emotional issues and anger consume him, and has bassically been digging his own grave. Are they pathetic? Kind of. But that doesn't make them bad characters. All of The Flash's rogues were idiotic on every level when they first started out. Now they're some of the most popular villains in comics. Why? Because someone gave them a ****ing chance. The Trapster doesn't need to be a succesful criminal to be an interesting character. Like I said, put him in a series where he's one of the main characters. A series about a gang of criminals. Have his anger and self destructive tendancies be a major issue in his character arc. Have the others in the gang actually trying to help him with these issues.

 

[The Overlord]

First of all, my aproach to The Trapster and Stilt Man would not be the same. Similar? Yes. But they're not the same character. Stilt Man, way I see it, isa reluctant criminal. He became one out of desperation and now he's just trying to do the best with what he has. Trapster's a fellow who let his emotional issues and anger consume him, and has bassically been digging his own grave. Are they pathetic? Kind of. But that doesn't make them bad characters. All of The Flash's rogues were idiotic on every level when they first started out. Now they're some of the most popular villains in comics. Why? Because someone gave them a ****ing chance. The Trapster doesn't need to be a succesful criminal to be an interesting character. Like I said, put him in a series where he's one of the main characters. A series about a gang of criminals. Have his anger and self destructive tendancies be a major issue in his character arc. Have the others in the gang actually trying to help him with these issues.

Those ideas are very similar, seems like your not trying hard.. If you wqant to make Trapster a good villain, give something more than some vague nonsense about low self esteem and make him somewhat of a threat. Here's an idea he's the Trapster, right, why not make him the sinister masters of traps, instead of loser with a glue gun. Instead of charging in like a fool with a bad costume and a glue gun, he is sutble and cunning. He lures his targets into areas that he has rigged with dangerous traps, in order to kill them or force information out of them.

Pete decided that his crimianl career didn't work so he decided to change it, got rid of the gimmick that didn't work and adopted a new one. About he has a little character growth he gets over his self esteem problems too a degree. Instead he is calm, cool and in control, his previous self esteem problems and betryal by his employers has given a desire to be in control, instead of running that bad costume (what kind of hitman wants to attract attention to himself like that) he wears a smart business suit and is very relaxed, sipping wine will tormenting his targets from the safety of his control booth. He will no longer freak out when people call him "Paste Pot Pete", he will always be in control.

That if the kind of hitman that will get hired, not the sniveling fool in a bad costume that Wizard sent into a time loop just to get rid of him. In fact have this new Trapster rely more on his traps rather than needing other teamates who could betray him and let him try be proactive, let him try and rig a trap for those abused him, like the Wizard. That is a million times more interesting then some guy with self esteem issues.

 

[The Question]

Those ideas are very similar, seems like your not trying hard.. If you wqant to make Trapster a good villain, give something more than some vague nonsense about low self esteem and make him somewhat of a threat.

Okay, here's where you and are aren't communicating properly. I'm not concerned with making The Trapster a good villain. I'm concerned with maming him a good character. Wether or not he's succesful at crime isn't my prime concern. And my Trapster and Stilt Man ideas aren't that similar at all. Stilt Man became a criminal because he felt he had no other options. The Trapster became a criminal because he has some emotional issues. He wanted to be famoud, it backfired, and now all of his anger and self esteem issues are eating him alive.

Here's an idea he's the Trapster, right, why not make him the sinister masters of traps, instead of loser with a glue gun. Instead of charging in like a fool with a bad costume and a glue gun, he is sutble and cunning. He lures his targets into areas that he has rigged with dangerous traps, in order to kill them or force information out of them.

He already evolved from an adhesive guy to a general chemical weapons expert a while ago. He often uses acids and explosives in his arsenal these days.

Pete decided that his crimianl career didn't work so he decided to change it, got rid of the gimmick that didn't work and adopted a new one. About he has a little character growth he gets over his self esteem problems too a degree. Instead he is calm, cool and in control, his previous self esteem problems and betryal by his employers has given a desire to be in control, instead of running that bad costume (what kind of hitman wants to attract attention to himself like that) he wears a smart business suit and is very relaxed, sipping wine will tormenting his targets from the safety of his control booth. He will no longer freak out when people call him "Paste Pot Pete", he will always be in control.

He hasn't worn a stupid costume in a while. Nowadays, he tends to wear more practical outfits with his gear over them. And why would making him very calm and well put together make him a better character? I kind of like that he has a temper and vents his frustrations by hurting people. There's alot you can work with there.

That if the kind of hitman that will get hired, not the sniveling fool in a bad costume that Wizard sent into a time loop just to get rid of him.

When have we talked about him being a sniveling fool? A porr self image doesn't make him a sniveling fool. In his case, it makes him stuborn and violent.

In fact have this new Trapster rely more on his traps rather than needing other teamates who could betray him and let him try be proactive, let him try and rig a trap for those abused him, like the Wizard. That is a million times more interesting then some guy with self esteem issues.

No, it's not. You're changing his gimmick, not his character. Nothing you mentioned his character driven at all. It's simply him wearing a buisness suit and sipping wine while killing people. There's no depth. The self esteem thing at least gives a ****ing reason as to why he's screwed up. The self esteem thing gives a writer something to work with to make Pete a more interesting character. I'm not talking about making him a more badass villain. I'm talking about making him a more interesting character. The two are very different things. I'm sorry, but I really dislike your aditude towards characters. It seems very short sighted.

 

[The Overlord]

Okay, here's where you and are aren't communicating properly. I'm not concerned with making The Trapster a good villain. I'm concerned with maming him a good character. Wether or not he's succesful at crime isn't my prime concern. And my Trapster and Stilt Man ideas aren't that similar at all. Stilt Man became a criminal because he felt he had no other options. The Trapster became a criminal because he has some emotional issues. He wanted to be famoud, it backfired, and now all of his anger and self esteem issues are eating him alive.

If wanted to be famous he could brought his glues to a major corpoartion and worked with them to into a useful household item. If OCk can build undrwater bases without outside aid, why couldn't the Trapster change his adhesives for household use? Trapster can devlop a way to dissolve adhesive X but can't make his glues product friendly, can you prove he couldn't do that?

He already evolved from an adhesive guy to a general chemical weapons expert a while ago. He often uses acids and explosives in his arsenal these days.
So what the DD villain the gael uses chemicals and explosives, how Trapster a better hitman then him. the Gael has a better track record then him and isn't consider a joke, who would most crime bosses hire? Frankly why not just hire a sniper instead of Trapster, its cheaper and more effective.


He hasn't worn a stupid costume in a while. Nowadays, he tends to wear more practical outfits with his gear over them. And why would making him very calm and well put together make him a better character? I kind of like that he has a temper and vents his frustrations by hurting people. There's alot you can work with there.

is it still purple? Who is going to hire a assassin with purple costume, assassins use sleath and just screams for attetion, its not good busines sense.

When have we talked about him being a sniveling fool? A porr self image doesn't make him a sniveling fool. In his case, it makes him stuborn and violent.

In the last appearance with the Wizard, he was acting like sivileing fool and that's why Wizard stuck him in a time loop

No, it's not. You're changing his gimmick, not his character. Nothing you mentioned his character driven at all. It's simply him wearing a buisness suit and sipping wine while killing people. There's no depth. The self esteem thing at least gives a ****ing reason as to why he's screwed up. The self esteem thing gives a writer something to work with to make Pete a more interesting character. I'm not talking about making him a more badass villain. I'm talking about making him a more interesting character. The two are very different things. I'm sorry, but I really dislike your aditude towards characters. It seems very short sighted.

I guess what I don't give a flying fig what you think I think about my opinions on characters. I think most of your ideas to revamp characters suck and I don't like them. I don't respect your ideas or your opinion. at least this version of trapster is threat, people like villains who can pose a threat better than ones who can't. Frankly just repeating self esteem problems over and over again, isn't giving him depth either. Frankly calculator changed his gimmck and people loive him now. Why should he remain the guy with the glue gun?

 

[The Question]

If wanted to be famous he could brought his glues to a major corpoartion and worked with them to into a useful household item. If OCk can build undrwater bases without outside aid, why couldn't the Trapster change his adhesives for household use? Trapster can devlop a way to dissolve adhesive X but can't make his glues product friendly, can you prove he couldn't do that?

Maybe he just can't. Maybe the process to make his adhesives household usable would be too expensive to be practical. I'm not saying I can prove he can't, but you haven't proved that he can. It's entirely speculative.

So what the DD villain the gael uses chemicals and explosives, how Trapster a better hitman then him. the Gael has a better track record then him and isn't consider a joke, who would most crime bosses hire?

I have never heard of Gael before in my life.

Frankly why not just hire a sniper instead of Trapster, its cheaper and more effective.

Not really, no. It depends on the situation.

is it still purple? Who is going to hire a assassin with purple costume, assassins use sleath and just screams for attetion, its not good busines sense.

This is th suit I was thinking of:

Very dark purple jacket with gloves and a backpack. Not overly showy.

In the last appearance with the Wizard, he was acting like sivileing fool and that's why Wizard stuck him in a time loop

Alright then.

I guess what I don't give a flying fig what you think I think about my opinions on characters. I think most of your ideas to revamp characters suck and I don't like them. I don't respect your ideas or your opinion. at least this version of trapster is threat, people like villains who can pose a threat better than ones who can't. Frankly just repeating self esteem problems over and over again, isn't giving him depth either. Frankly calculator changed his gimmck and people loive him now. Why should he remain the guy with the glue gun?

Making him a threat doesn't make him a better character. And you can't say that self esteem issues doesn't give him depth because simply saying self esteem issues doesn't paint a picture of how his character arc would be exicuted. You'd have to see it in action to see if there'd be depth to it. There's no depth in making him more of a threat. And, like I said, he evolved from a guy with a glue gun to a chemical weapons expert a while ago. That makes him plenty of a threat if the writers just actually try to do something good with him.