Hawkeye Vincent D'Onofrio returning as Wilson Fisk / The Kingpin

[TheVileOne]

The canon thing annoys me, but the whole Netflix situation sounds nebulous right now.

I imagine the reason Feige isn't alkinga bout Netflix because Netflix still owns all those shows. In other words, Disney can't use any of those scenes or footage.

One ten-minute appearance and D'Onofrio is already an MCU MVP.

Unless he's dead.

 

[Snow Queen]

The chances of him being dead are only slightly higher than the chances of Marvel firing Kevin Feige and deciding I should run their universe now.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

Spoiler

If they were going to definitively off Kingpin they wouldn't have cut to a wide shot as the gun was fired.

Besides, isn't Echo getting her own show?

 

[metaphysician]

Spoiler: Yeah

I mean, dramatically speaking they theoretically want their to be uncertainty, and I imagine if they couldn't get Donofrio back it would provide a convenient cover. However, logically speaking, given that they already established that Fisk was nigh invulnerable, and cut away? He *shouldn't be* dead, certainly. The fact that apparently there is a major Echo plotline which centers on Fisk getting shot in the face by Echo and needing to spend time getting an eye transplant before returning should clinch it.

 

[Detective Conan]

Vincent D'Onofrio Addresses That Hawkeye Cliffhanger, Potential Daredevil Reunion with Charlie Cox

 

[Spider-Fan]

So at the very least, he says the general idea is he is the same character and he played it as much. Only he is stronger now

 

[Pennywise]

‘Hawkeye’: How Kate and Eleanor Bishop Go Up Against Kingpin — and Win

“We were getting to the moment of shooting when this idea took hold, we're going to do this,” Thomas explains to Marvel.com. “It's going to be Kingpin; he's going to [be the] end. It's great to see these worlds crossing over, and Vincent was wonderful and cool and everything you want him to be. It was a thrill.”

“He's one of the greatest actors ever, and this is a character that he's already obviously spent a long time with,” Thomas continues. “Once the idea came in that he was going to be in the show, we got on the phone with him and had some long discussions about the character. He was really the source of so much knowledge and understanding…he really helped craft those scenes, even on-set. He's just so specific; every little detail and every moment he understands it and feels it. It's a new iteration to the MCU. It was bizarre, crazy and so exciting when I found out.”

 

[Pennywise]

Exclusive: Hawkeye Finale Changes and Kingpin’s Future in the MCU, The Cosmic Circus

 

[CaptainWagner]

So I'll admit when I'm wrong. D'Onferio's new comments definitely point to at least him being led to understand this as a continuation of his Daredevil storyline. In which case it's definitely easy to believe that he got his hands on some manner of black market super soldier serum during The Blip. It would be cool to see Sharon/Power Broker's storyline intersect with his when it is presumably picked back up again in Echo.

I get that we all want a lot more of him ASAP, but personally I don't want him to be the Big Bad of Echo. She already got a showdown with him, and I don't want him to return AGAIN only to get beat AGAIN. Instead, have Echo deal with the inevitable turf war fallout of gangs trying to take Fisk's place. Insert Bullseye into the mix as a wildcard before revealing in the end once Echo and Daredevil have seemingly won that Fisk is alive and coming for vengeance.

 

[Detective Conan]

 

[Pennywise]

Vincent D'Onofrio answers whether 'Hawkeye' and 'Daredevil' share the same Kingpin

Fans on Twitter constantly tell you how much they want you back as Kingpin. Were you surprised when the call came through, or were you always holding out hope that you'd been able to reprise the role?

I was surprised. I had held out hope that Daredevil would somehow survive even after we stopped, but that ended quickly. But I always kept supporting the fans and their excitement about Daredevil, and also their excitement about my character. But you know, I never really thought it was going to happen, so it was obviously a pleasant surprise that Hawkeye was one of the things that Kevin wanted me to do. It's amazing.

Based on that last quote, he’ll be back.

 

[Enriquespy]

I'm so glad he is back. It seems like a take on Fisk that is quite not identical to the Netflix series, but that was to be expected, we still got our boy back, just less gory and a bit more superhuman.
I'm curious to see where they go with this.

I also hope we get to see Vanessa with the same actress, she is quite a sight.

 

[Holy Slapper]

I think she might be back too?

 

[Heretic]

So I'll admit when I'm wrong. D'Onferio's new comments definitely point to at least him being led to understand this as a continuation of his Daredevil storyline. In which case it's definitely easy to believe that he got his hands on some manner of black market super soldier serum during The Blip. It would be cool to see Sharon/Power Broker's storyline intersect with his when it is presumably picked back up again in Echo.

I get that we all want a lot more of him ASAP, but personally I don't want him to be the Big Bad of Echo. She already got a showdown with him, and I don't want him to return AGAIN only to get beat AGAIN. Instead, have Echo deal with the inevitable turf war fallout of gangs trying to take Fisk's place. Insert Bullseye into the mix as a wildcard before revealing in the end once Echo and Daredevil have seemingly won that Fisk is alive and coming for vengeance.

Since Norman Osborne won't exist in the main MCU, I'd like to see Fisk take on the level of importance Osborne had in some big comic arcs. This is one of the best characters in the entire MCU...keep him around. Certainly don't job him out to the worst new hero character in the history of the MCU. Echo sucks and the actress is terrible (she had one facial expression the entire series and it wasn't convincing).

 

[CaptainWagner]

Since Norman Osborne won't exist in the main MCU, I'd like to see Fisk take on the level of importance Osborne had in some big comic arcs. This is one of the best characters in the entire MCU...keep him around. Certainly don't job him out to the worst new hero character in the history of the MCU. Echo sucks and the actress is terrible (she had one facial expression the entire series and it wasn't convincing).

1) What's this based on? I see no reason for Norman not to exist in the MCU?

2) Cox as Echo did great. Wish we could have gotten more of her here, to really get to know her, but I also understand why they included Yelena. We really need to end this whole "Stoic character didn't show enough emotion, therefore this is bad acting" thing.

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

Since Norman Osborne won't exist in the main MCU, I'd like to see Fisk take on the level of importance Osborne had in some big comic arcs. This is one of the best characters in the entire MCU...keep him around. Certainly don't job him out to the worst new hero character in the history of the MCU. Echo sucks and the actress is terrible (she had one facial expression the entire series and it wasn't convincing).

Assuming the Netflix backstory remains in play Fisk is an ex convict. It would take more time than a movie to lay out how he could go into the things beyond the Goblin that folks want Osborne for.

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

1) What's this based on? I see no reason for Norman not to exist in the MCU?

2) Cox as Echo did great. Wish we could have gotten more of her here, to really get to know her, but I also understand why they included Yelena. We really need to end this whole "Stoic character didn't show enough emotion, therefore this is bad acting" thing.

There is always Sony to consider and their ability to snatch characters back. Since plan B has to be ready for anything Sony owned you can't make them major players in MCU mega story treads.

 

[metaphysician]

There is always Sony to consider and their ability to snatch characters back. Since plan B has to be ready for anything Sony owned you can't make them major players in MCU mega story treads.

This. And frankly, its for the better, Norman Osborne has always been at his worst when they've tried to turn him into Bootleg Lex Luther. Wilson Fisk does a better job at being the "street level supervillain man behind the man" niche, seeing as "Is a highly effective behind the scenes manipulator" is a core part of his concept from the early days to the present, as opposed to with Norman where its a badly conceived addition born of badly conceived storylines.

 

[CaptainWagner]

This. And frankly, its for the better, Norman Osborne has always been at his worst when they've tried to turn him into Bootleg Lex Luther. Wilson Fisk does a better job at being the "street level supervillain man behind the man" niche, seeing as "Is a highly effective behind the scenes manipulator" is a core part of his concept from the early days to the present, as opposed to with Norman where its a badly conceived addition born of badly conceived storylines.

Obviously to each their own, but I definitely feel like the general consensus is that Dark Reign-era Norman is the favorite/most popular take on the character in the comics.

 

[Iceman]

The closets we ever got to “confirmation” is Gunn saying the Pre-Marvel Studios shows aren’t canon.

But last I checked, Gunn isn’t President of Marvel Studios - Kevin Feige is, and he has always refrained from answering the canon questions definitively when asked about it in interviews. So as of now, the canonicity status of those shows remain in question.

Feige benefits from leaving it vague and keeping his options open.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

I didn't mind the retcon of the Mandarin in Shang Chi as I thought the actual Mandarin should be played by a Chinese actor.

before Iron Man 3 released and Ben Kingsley was cast as the Mandarin, I really think it was just Disney staying consistent with Jon Favreau's modernization of what a terrorist organization looks like; which is why in the first Iron Man movie, the Ten Rings were all cast as brown or Middle Eastern people.

Then in Shang Chi, the Ten Rings is back to being made more comic book accurate as an East Asian terrorist organization led by a Chinese man, who overseas factions of the Rings worldwide including in the Middle East. The Rings were pretty much redeemed by the end of the movie, but nothing about the Middle Eastern faction was so whatever was perceived of them from the first movie remains the same; nothing about them is redeemed.

This a bit of a tangent I'm going off on but this isn't the thread for it! So my bad

He was throwing Kate around like a ragdoll until she briefly incapacitated him with a trick.


That's... not remotely how canon works.

Also, this is a Multiverse, so all those stories can be canon, just not part of the 'Prime Universe.'

I think storytelling wise, making the Netflix MCU canon to the main MCU is not as simple as just saying "the MCU established that there is a multiverse, so everything is canon now." People also have to keep in mind that the MCU means two things now. The MCU mean both MCU the multimedia franchise, and MCU the fictional universe where most of its IPs take place in as the setting.

First of all, the first Netflix MCU show was Daredevil which debuted in 2015. Netflix didn't automatically have the rights to film the show. Disney had to wait for Fox's rights to Daredevil to expire, and get the rights back. When that happened, Disney chose to partner with Netflix to create a Daredevil series instead of a movie. That was a decision made by Disney, the owner of Marvel. And back in 2015, there were absolutely no conversations about "multiverse" and "multiple timelines" or anything like that. For all intents and purposes, the Netflix series was 100% meant to be filmed and portrayed as part of the MCU setting.

Fast forward half a decade later and there is all this trouble between Marvel Television and Marvel Studios and only fans arguing that the shows aren't canon because they have nothing to do with Marvel Television which honestly doesn't make any sense because of the shows themselves but after Avengers: Endgame, and this year's introduction of the MCU multiverse, some of these fans now saying "sure they can be canon because it's an alternate timeline" to me, that doesn't really work.

Firstly, to say that the Netflix MCU is canon because it is an alternate timeline adds even more implications. Number one, okay, if the Netflix MCU is an alternate timeline, does that mean that the main timeline has its own versions of those characters? We see that there is a Kingpin so yes if that is the case, then the MCU does have its own versions. However, beyond that, the Netflix series still exists. And with that being the case, if they are an alternate timeline, then does this alternate timeline matter? Will it become relevant as the main MCU progresses with its storytelling? If the answer is no, then 1 it means that the Netflix and everything that occurred there is just being left behind and 2 that also tells me that if the events of the Netflix MCU are not brought back in any way shape or form then it means they aren't an alternate timeline; it just means that to the main MCU, the Netflix MCU just never happened - multiverse or not.

Secondly, as I explained earlier when these shows were incepted, they were never being portrayed as an alternate timeline to the MCU, but all part of the same timeline as Marvel Studios films. Back then there were no conversations about a multiverse at all. So it shouldn't be seen as unreasonable for fans to want the Netflix MCU to either be canon to the main MCU or at least be soft rebooted into the MCU, meaning to say that that the events are all in the same continuity but Disney takes some liberties and doesn't keep everything the same; just retcons some things here and there. And I don't think that's unreasonable either seeing as how the MCU films has had its own fair share of retcons already.

Not to mention an explosion did nothing to him except have him limping a little lol. They went too over the top with it. It made no sense that he's invulnerable and super strong, yet he punches Kate and she gets right back up. It would've been easy to have a more believable fight: No ripping doors off cars, her arrow hits him in the arm, he's further away from the explosion, or instead of an explosion he gets shocked, etc. It's kind of mindblowing that they got so stupid with it. Then you add in Kazi suddenly being able to catch an arrow...

Yes that was really fxcking stupid, however I have to admit Kazi's actor did a really good job making me hate his guts.

The closets we ever got to “confirmation” is Gunn saying the Pre-Marvel Studios shows aren’t canon.

But last I checked, Gunn isn’t President of Marvel Studios - Kevin Feige is, and he has always refrained from answering the canon questions definitively when asked about it in interviews. So as of now, the canonicity status of those shows remain in question.

Yup. James Gunn says one thing, Clark Gregg says another thing and not one thing said by one person is any more valid than things said by the other. They both worked for Marvel Studios; one person just got hired to act and the other was hired to direct. And the only thing I remember Feige saying is that you cannot just disregard the fan base of the Netflix MCU. When he was asked, instead of saying that it's not canon, he says that which is easily a very open ended answer.

The canon thing annoys me, but the whole Netflix situation sounds nebulous right now.

I imagine the reason Feige isn't alkinga bout Netflix because Netflix still owns all those shows. In other words, Disney can't use any of those scenes or footage.

I don't know if that's true. Feige has talked about Daredevil on Netflix before and I don't think it is the case that Netflix just straight up owns it fully, I think it is joint ownership between Netflix and Marvel Television. Marvel was the production company and Netflix was the distributor. Certain things about how the show was developed was dictated by Disney themselves; they're the reason why there was no full frontal nudity or no real F word, things that many other Netflix original shows have plenty of.

So at the very least, he says the general idea is he is the same character and he played it as much. Only he is stronger now

Exactly, and in my opinion that could easily just be seen as a retcon instead of a different version of the character.

 

[TheVileOne]

before Iron Man 3 released and Ben Kingsley was cast as the Mandarin, I really think it was just Disney staying consistent with Jon Favreau's modernization of what a terrorist organization looks like; which is why in the first Iron Man movie, the Ten Rings were all cast as brown or Middle Eastern people.

Then in Shang Chi, the Ten Rings is back to being made more comic book accurate as an East Asian terrorist organization led by a Chinese man, who overseas factions of the Rings worldwide including in the Middle East. The Rings were pretty much redeemed by the end of the movie, but nothing about the Middle Eastern faction was so whatever was perceived of them from the first movie remains the same; nothing about them is redeemed.

This a bit of a tangent I'm going off on but this isn't the thread for it! So my bad

I think storytelling wise, making the Netflix MCU canon to the main MCU is not as simple as just saying "the MCU established that there is a multiverse, so everything is canon now." People also have to keep in mind that the MCU means two things now. The MCU mean both MCU the multimedia franchise, and MCU the fictional universe where most of its IPs take place in as the setting.

First of all, the first Netflix MCU show was Daredevil which debuted in 2015. Netflix didn't automatically have the rights to film the show. Disney had to wait for Fox's rights to Daredevil to expire, and get the rights back. When that happened, Disney chose to partner with Netflix to create a Daredevil series instead of a movie. That was a decision made by Disney, the owner of Marvel. And back in 2015, there were absolutely no conversations about "multiverse" and "multiple timelines" or anything like that. For all intents and purposes, the Netflix series was 100% meant to be filmed and portrayed as part of the MCU setting.

Fast forward half a decade later and there is all this trouble between Marvel Television and Marvel Studios and only fans arguing that the shows aren't canon because they have nothing to do with Marvel Television which honestly doesn't make any sense because of the shows themselves but after Avengers: Endgame, and this year's introduction of the MCU multiverse, some of these fans now saying "sure they can be canon because it's an alternate timeline" to me, that doesn't really work.

Firstly, to say that the Netflix MCU is canon because it is an alternate timeline adds even more implications. Number one, okay, if the Netflix MCU is an alternate timeline, does that mean that the main timeline has its own versions of those characters? We see that there is a Kingpin so yes if that is the case, then the MCU does have its own versions. However, beyond that, the Netflix series still exists. And with that being the case, if they are an alternate timeline, then does this alternate timeline matter? Will it become relevant as the main MCU progresses with its storytelling? If the answer is no, then 1 it means that the Netflix and everything that occurred there is just being left behind and 2 that also tells me that if the events of the Netflix MCU are not brought back in any way shape or form then it means they aren't an alternate timeline; it just means that to the main MCU, the Netflix MCU just never happened - multiverse or not.

Secondly, as I explained earlier when these shows were incepted, they were never being portrayed as an alternate timeline to the MCU, but all part of the same timeline as Marvel Studios films. Back then there were no conversations about a multiverse at all. So it shouldn't be seen as unreasonable for fans to want the Netflix MCU to either be canon to the main MCU or at least be soft rebooted into the MCU, meaning to say that that the events are all in the same continuity but Disney takes some liberties and doesn't keep everything the same; just retcons some things here and there. And I don't think that's unreasonable either seeing as how the MCU films has had its own fair share of retcons already.

Yes that was really fxcking stupid, however I have to admit Kazi's actor did a really good job making me hate his guts.

Yup. James Gunn says one thing, Clark Gregg says another thing and not one thing said by one person is any more valid than things said by the other. They both worked for Marvel Studios; one person just got hired to act and the other was hired to direct. And the only thing I remember Feige saying is that you cannot just disregard the fan base of the Netflix MCU. When he was asked, instead of saying that it's not canon, he says that which is easily a very open ended answer.

I don't know if that's true. Feige has talked about Daredevil on Netflix before and I don't think it is the case that Netflix just straight up owns it fully, I think it is joint ownership between Netflix and Marvel Television. Marvel was the production company and Netflix was the distributor. Certain things about how the show was developed was dictated by Disney themselves; they're the reason why there was no full frontal nudity or no real F word, things that many other Netflix original shows have plenty of.

Exactly, and in my opinion that could easily just be seen as a retcon instead of a different version of the character.

As I said before, it's all very nebulous and still is.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

As I said before, it's all very nebulous and still is.

I know you said it's very nebulous, but in that same post you also said Netflix owns it and that's where I feel like the case is actually joint ownership.

 

[TheVileOne]

I know you said it's very nebulous, but in that same post you also said Netflix owns it and that's where I feel like the case is actually joint ownership.

They own it, and I've seen no evidence otherwise they don't.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

They own it, and I've seen no evidence otherwise they don't.

I just presented to you evidence of co ownership. I'm just gonna copy paste since I'm on mobile.

Marvel was the production company and Netflix was the distributor. Certain things about how the show was developed was dictated by Disney themselves; they're the reason why there was no full frontal nudity or no real F word, things that many other Netflix original shows have plenty of.