Hawkeye Vincent D'Onofrio returning as Wilson Fisk / The Kingpin

[TheVileOne]

I just presented to you evidence of co ownership. I'm just gonna copy paste since I'm on mobile.

Marvel was the production company and Netflix was the distributor. Certain things about how the show was developed was dictated by Disney themselves; they're the reason why there was no full frontal nudity or no real F word, things that many other Netflix original shows have plenty of.

Plenty of Netflix shows don't have nudity and the F-word either. That's not really evidence of anything, *shrugs*

The Witcher had nudity and sex in S1 and very little in the way of that in S2.

Netflix was clearly a financier for the Netflix shows and was more than just a mere "distributor." Marvel TV/ABC TV packaged the 60 episodes together and put it out to buyers. Netflix bought the whole package. The package was 13 episodes each of Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist, and eight episodes of Defenders. That was the initial deal.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Plenty of Netflix shows don't have nudity and the F-word either. That's not really evidence of anything, *shrugs*

The Witcher had nudity and sex in S1 and very little in the way of that in S2.

Netflix was clearly a financier for the Netflix shows and was more than just a mere "distributor." Marvel TV/ABC TV packaged the 60 episodes together and put it out to buyers. Netflix bought the whole package. The package was 13 episodes each of Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist, and eight episodes of Defenders. That was the initial deal.

No, there is not a single R rated Netflix show without the F word or nudity. The non Marvel ones, anyway.

I believe there is joint ownership involved of the Netflix MCU shows just like there is joint ownership of Sweet tooth between Netflix and WB.

 

[TheVileOne]

No, there is not a single R rated Netflix show without the F word or nudity. The non Marvel ones, anyway.

The Witcher Season 2 has no nudity in it. Cowboy Bebop has no actual nudity in it. So you're wrong.

I believe there is joint ownership involved of the Netflix MCU shows just like there is joint ownership of Sweet tooth between Netflix and WB.

Basically why they aren't going to use or reference footage or material they do not own.

 

[Spider-Fan]

This argument is moot. Sony owns the Spider-Man movies, which the MCU recognize. Universal owns TIH, which they recognize and reference often. So Netflix having the distribution rights means jack in terms of continuity being there or not. The actor himself says the general idea was to be playing that same character from the show. So if that is the approach we are running with, then this entire debate is just moot. If ya want to look at these as new versions, that is your prerogative a go right ahead. But that doesn't seem to be the approach Marvel is taking. At least, that is how they are directing their actors to play these roles.

So until further notice, these would seem to be cannon. But again, people will continue supporting their own idea of what is cannon. So may as well just move on with our days. Will they get new costumes and such? Probably, but the universe itself has moved on YEARS beyond where these are in continuity and the characters change costumes. Is anyone arguing HC and FFH are not connected because Spider-Man has 100 costumes? None of that matters.

 

[TheVileOne]

This argument is moot. Sony owns the Spider-Man movies, which the MCU recognize. Universal owns TIH, which they recognize and reference often. So Netflix having the distribution rights means jack in terms of continuity being there or not. The actor himself says the general idea was to be playing that same character from the show. So if that is the approach we are running with, then this entire debate is just moot. If ya want to look at these as new versions, that is your prerogative a go right ahead. But that doesn't seem to be the approach Marvel is taking. At least, that is how they are directing their actors to play these roles.

So until further notice, these would seem to be cannon. But again, people will continue supporting their own idea of what is cannon. So may as well just move on with our days. Will they get new costumes and such? Probably, but the universe itself has moved on YEARS beyond where these are in continuity and the characters change costumes. Is anyone arguing HC and FFH are not connected because Spider-Man has 100 costumes? None of that matters.

When they start directly referencing events specific to the Netflix shows, then I might believe it.

 

[Spider-Fan]

When they start directly referencing events specific to the Netflix shows, then I might believe it.

You do you. But what you do also doesn't effect me or how I view the situation. So until someone specifically says they ain't, they are cannon.

 

[TheVileOne]

You do you. But what you do also doesn't effect me or how I view the situation. So until someone specifically says they ain't, they are cannon.

I view it as until Feige says they are, they ain't canon.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I view it as until Feige says they are, they ain't canon.

Vincent got the call from Feige, and Vincent's understanding from his own words were that he is the same character. So seems pretty official to me

 

[TheVileOne]

Vincent got the call from Feige, and Vincent's understanding from his own words were that he is the same character. So seems pretty official to me

Then I will wait until Feige confirms for certainty.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

The Witcher Season 2 has no nudity in it. Cowboy Bebop has no actual nudity in it. So you're wrong.



Basically why they aren't going to use or reference footage or material they do not own.

That's true, I didn't realize that about the Witcher or CB. But I am certain that Disney is the reason there is no nudity or f word in the Netflix MCU.

 

[Dark Raven]

That's true, I didn't realize that about the Witcher or CB. But I am certain that Disney is the reason there is no nudity or f word in the Netflix MCU.

There was nudity in the Netflix MCU. Misty Knight got her boobs out in the first episode of Luke Cage.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

There was nudity in the Netflix MCU. Misty Knight got her boobs out in the first episode of Luke Cage.

That's not nudity. She had her clothes on. Edit: I meant you didn't see her nipples

 

[Dark Raven]

That's not nudity. She had her clothes on. Edit: I meant you didn't see her nipples

But you wouldn't get even that in a Disney+ show.

 

[TheVileOne]

That's true, I didn't realize that about the Witcher or CB. But I am certain that Disney is the reason there is no nudity or f word in the Netflix MCU.

The thing is about that, some of that comes down to the actors and producers too, what they are willing to show onscreen and how the producers want those scenes to be shot and come across.

 

[metaphysician]

Obviously to each their own, but I definitely feel like the general consensus is that Dark Reign-era Norman is the favorite/most popular take on the character in the comics.

"Favorite/Most Popular" is not the same thing as "Well Written". For it to actually be good, it would have to be even halfway plausible that said character could actually achieve. . . any of the things he achieved, by anything other than sheer arbitrary writer's favor. It was a particularly cancerous case of the Wolverine Effect, in its villainous variation: 'this character is popular and well known, so we will let him do things that he has no business doing'. Only in the case of Norman Osborne, he was popular and well known *specifically* for a story whose end point is "the villain dies due to being a short-sighted psychopath", which is pretty much the exact opposite end of the spectrum from anything resembling a grand mastermind.

 

[Heretic]

1) What's this based on? I see no reason for Norman not to exist in the MCU?

2) Cox as Echo did great. Wish we could have gotten more of her here, to really get to know her, but I also understand why they included Yelena. We really need to end this whole "Stoic character didn't show enough emotion, therefore this is bad acting" thing.

Oscorp doesnt exist in the MCU..and it would be really dumb to start a new Norman from scratch now, given the events and reaction to No Way Home. I think it's fairly clear that they made their Norman film here.

It wasn't bad acting because she was stoic. There's plenty of great stoic characters. It was bad acting because it was bad acting. Hawkeye is her very first acting role, and it shows.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

But you wouldn't get even that in a Disney+ show.

Of course not. You wouldn't get anything the way you got it on Netflix MCU if they were on Disney plus. They're rated R for television, and nothing on Disney plus is rated R.

The thing is about that, some of that comes down to the actors and producers too, what they are willing to show onscreen and how the producers want those scenes to be shot and come across.

That is true too. There was one nude scene I think in the very first episode of Daredevil, but it still wasn't full frontal nudity. But I think that actress was willing to do it, and may have even done it in True Blood.

 

[NotNickFury]

Of course not. You wouldn't get anything the way you got it on Netflix MCU if they were on Disney plus. They're rated R for television, and nothing on Disney plus is rated R.


That is true too. There was one nude scene I think in the very first episode of Daredevil, but it still wasn't full frontal nudity. But I think that actress was willing to do it, and may have even done it in True Blood.

I know there was at least some side boob from Karen when she was at Matt's place. I haven't watched True Blood since it ended, but I'm beyond certain that Deborah Ann Woll did much more than side boob in that show.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

I know there was at least some side boob from Karen when she was at Matt's place. I haven't watched True Blood since it ended, but I'm beyond certain that Deborah Ann Woll did much more than side boob in that show.

Yup, there was side boob right in the first episode. It was short, but that's as far as the show went or even could go with nudity.

 

[Dark Raven]

I know there was at least some side boob from Karen when she was at Matt's place. I haven't watched True Blood since it ended, but I'm beyond certain that Deborah Ann Woll did much more than side boob in that show.

I don't remember that scene. But if Deborah does return in the MCU now, the name "Karen" is in tatters in real life since that show.

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

So I'll admit when I'm wrong. D'Onferio's new comments definitely point to at least him being led to understand this as a continuation of his Daredevil storyline. In which case it's definitely easy to believe that he got his hands on some manner of black market super soldier serum during The Blip. It would be cool to see Sharon/Power Broker's storyline intersect with his when it is presumably picked back up again in Echo.

I get that we all want a lot more of him ASAP, but personally I don't want him to be the Big Bad of Echo. She already got a showdown with him, and I don't want him to return AGAIN only to get beat AGAIN. Instead, have Echo deal with the inevitable turf war fallout of gangs trying to take Fisk's place. Insert Bullseye into the mix as a wildcard before revealing in the end once Echo and Daredevil have seemingly won that Fisk is alive and coming for vengeance.

I wonder if it was the plan to have a seemingly stable super soldier formula available to Fisk but not others? The battle scenes went far beyond Disney not showing the human body's reaction to trauma like the productions for Netflix did from Murdock's fist.

Of course with the fanbase talking the possibility of a near variant Fisk due to the lack of Netflix blood comments like these on fan sites can be picked up and added to the backstory in a later Fisk appearance.

 

[Dark Raven]

Maybe Kingpin just worked out a lot during the Blip and practised throwing around his henchmen like ragdolls (which is why none of the original ones from the Netflix series have survived).

 

[metaphysician]

Maybe Kingpin just worked out a lot during the Blip and practised throwing around his henchmen like ragdolls (which is why none of the original ones from the Netflix series have survived).

Being fair, there's another more serious reason why none of his original henchmen might be around. *points at the title of the show*

That said, I feel like trying to explain why or how Fisk is superhuman is a trap. In the comics there never was such an explanation, and potential explanations like "is he a mutant?" actively got shot down. He just was some weird freak of nature who had naturally occurring class 5-10 brickiness or so, as long as he worked out and stayed in shape ( his downgrades in power tended to loosely correlate with long term injury, letting himself go mentally, etc ).

Could you come up with a new, original explanation for where he got superpowers? Sure. Maybe he hired a mad scientist to get him bootleg SSS, or lightly copy Luke Cage's treatment, or such. Maybe he tracked down a supernaturally enlightened Yokozuna to teach him chi-empowered sumo. Would this actually be a *good* idea, in terms of contributing to the story? I am skeptical about that- plot logic is not the same as story, and so far, there isn't really much sign that the stories Fisk would be in, would be meaningfully aided by "and this is why Fisk is so strong".

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Being fair, there's another more serious reason why none of his original henchmen might be around. *points at the title of the show*

That said, I feel like trying to explain why or how Fisk is superhuman is a trap. In the comics there never was such an explanation, and potential explanations like "is he a mutant?" actively got shot down. He just was some weird freak of nature who had naturally occurring class 5-10 brickiness or so, as long as he worked out and stayed in shape ( his downgrades in power tended to loosely correlate with long term injury, letting himself go mentally, etc ).

Could you come up with a new, original explanation for where he got superpowers? Sure. Maybe he hired a mad scientist to get him bootleg SSS, or lightly copy Luke Cage's treatment, or such. Maybe he tracked down a supernaturally enlightened Yokozuna to teach him chi-empowered sumo. Would this actually be a *good* idea, in terms of contributing to the story? I am skeptical about that- plot logic is not the same as story, and so far, there isn't really much sign that the stories Fisk would be in, would be meaningfully aided by "and this is why Fisk is so strong".

I am just viewing it as a retcon of his strength from the Netflix show. I'm viewing Born Again as a soft reboot, so Marvel Studios will simply pick and choose what they want to keep canon and what not to acknowledgement.