World Webbing formula - Part 1

[White_widow]

Of course not. His design was highly inefficient. The point is, 50 psi has the power to make that volume of water fly that far. We will be using materials to make sure that the fluid flies in a more direct path in a more concentrated area. I mean the viscosity of the formula is going to be different, so we will have to increase the pressure, but you catch my point.

Man this is fun! ^^ I haven't had to think my way through an argument like this in a long time!

 

[Peter Parkerish]

Ok..., let me simplify things:

The formula is a dissolved Plastic and an adhesive.

Plastic= polymer (PO) + plasticizer (PL) + additives(a)

The plastic provides strength, the plasticizer adds elasticity, and additives change other properties.

Adhesive= rubber (R) + tackifier (T)

Rubber produces bond strength, and tackifier increases hold.

Solvent (s)

solvent dissolves the plastic.

So, as it stands, there are two formulas with modifications.

Cellustick-

PO: Cellulose acetate
PL: glycerine
A:N/A
R: Contact cement
T: PVA or aerosol spray and stick (super 77)
S: Acetone

vinylon-

PO: PVA
PL: Water
A:N/A
R: water soluble Contact cement
T: aerosol spray and stick (super 77)
S: water

Now. The way we prepare these formulas depend on the method by which we spin them.

Right now, as it stands we are looking into PVA because if we can extrude it properly, it can be close to stainless steel or more in strength and it will be cheap. We will try dry spinning or gel spinning. If we can't get it right, who cares? We can dissolve it down and use it in cellustick.

Now a lot of you have referred to sodium tetraborate, also known as borax. That crosslinking agent is no good for PVA. It will completely ruin your tensile strength and adhesion. Basically, all the reasons you would want PVA you lose when it comes int ocontact with borax.

WW, what I was trying to ask at first is that you stated the preparation is changed depending on the spin type, so I wanted to know how to prepare it for the gel version

 

[spidey44]

that was a good argument, Krinkleneck you do a lot of research don't you?

 

[White_widow]

which formula? Cellustick or vinylon?

 

[Peter Parkerish]

Vinloyn

 

[Krinkleneck]

I guess a regulator wouldn't be too bad, but I don't think I'll use it, It seems like your formula is similar to some of ours, Oh yeah and welcome to the forums.

If i wasn't I would be surprised. Yours is a good concept that I am working from along with the actual spider formula. The problem is it will be equally sticky on all sides.

 

[White_widow]

I'm not exactly sure to tell you the truth. I'm still learning about vinylon. I'm experimenting with coldness and tensile strength in films. If it can retain water and a decent tensile strength then we can test it in a shooter. If not, well have to find a way to remove water. That's all excluding the adhesive though.

 

[Krinkleneck]

Of course not. His design was highly inefficient. The point is, 50 psi has the power to make that volume of water fly that far. We will be using materials to make sure that the fluid flies in a more direct path in a more concentrated area. I mean the viscosity of the formula is going to be different, so we will have to increase the pressure, but you catch my point.

Man this is fun! ^^ I haven't had to think my way through an argument like this in a long time!

Yes I get your point but his valve was a slow and inefficient ball valve. That isn't adding to the fact it was 1.5". With the diameters we are talking about we should be able to double that with blindfolded welded leaving holes. At that rate 1000 psi should give us plenty of shots, and our valves should be more efficient if they are butterfly or quick turn ninties.

 

[Krinkleneck]

lol i restated i got it but ididn't idiot moments brought to you by this guy

 

[Krinkleneck]

that was a good argument, Krinkleneck you do a lot of research don't you?

No I just work with these types of things a lot. That and my dad worked a lot longer in high psi in the navy and I learned everything mechanical I know from him, my grandfather who is a welder, and my uncle who is a machinist.

 

[Krinkleneck]

That's not including the microsoldering that I learned from my mom, and chemical processing from my aunt, mom, and dad.

 

[White_widow]

True. There's a few things I do have issue with though.

My heating coil would only be enough to make the shooter warm, and you stated that it would cause a combustion. How do you figure that an electric plasma arc won't? I mean the heat would be way intense, even if it's distanced from the fluid. Also, you claimed that the heating coil would drain the battery. I agree with that. I also agree that a plasma ark would act quicker than a heating coil, but talk about battery drainage. The amount of resistance it takes for an electric current to jump it's wire will drain the battery very quickly.

Also, when you were talking about using the powerlet cartridges, it that for fluid, compressed propellant, or both? It's very hard to compress a fluid. getting that much in a small cartridge won't give you a lot of shots.

Finally, you mentioned a plate that pushed the fluid. If that acts as a piston, then it's good stuff. I think that's good for the shooter.

So my problem for your shooter is that electric arc as a heating system, and drastic amount of pressure you are trying to use.

 

[Krinkleneck]

True. There's a few things I do have issue with though.

My heating coil would only be enough to make the shooter warm, and you stated that it would cause a combustion. How do you figure that an electric plasma arc won't? I mean the heat would be way intense, even if it's distanced from the fluid. Also, you claimed that the heating coil would drain the battery. I agree with that. I also agree that a plasma ark would act quicker than a heating coil, but talk about battery drainage. The amount of resistance it takes for an electric current to jump it's wire will drain the battery very quickly.

Also, when you were talking about using the powerlet cartridges, it that for fluid, compressed propellant, or both? It's very hard to compress a fluid. getting that much in a small cartridge won't give you a lot of shots.

Finally, you mentioned a plate that pushed the fluid. If that acts as a piston, then it's good stuff. I think that's good for the shooter.

So my problem for your shooter is that electric arc as a heating system, and drastic amount of pressure you are trying to use.

The plasma wouldn't be active when the fluid shoots just a little bit when the temperature is too low (hence no flame). The arc wouldn't use much you can have lots of battery time. (We aren't even looking into designing a cassimir battery off the cassimir effect to have as much battery life we could ever want). For the piston think of it like a syringe only on the other side was tremendous amounts of pressure. Another thing we could do is run air with the fluid so a non reactive gas force evaporates the acetone from rapid cooling. This would negate a need for a heating element and battery. For the cartridges you compress gas not as much liquid, but you could use cartridges if we increase the strength to about 600-800 mpa. We could get away with 1/16 inch strings then with it bulbed up at the end for weight in flight. So our first goals is find a pressure system that works, increase formula strength, and if we can make it degradable.

 

[Krinkleneck]

for the gas with the fluid think of it like blowing on water on a surface so it evaporates

 

[Krinkleneck]

as for the coil fire it all depends if it arcs if the fluid comes in contact with it causing a fire.

 

[White_widow]

I can buy into that. To tell you the truth the idea of arcing electricity hadn't occurred to me. I simply wanted an explanation as to why you'd think it wouldn't spark the flame. I still think that the designing would have to be perfected, but I'm satisfied.

If you're looking into designing a sustainable power source, why not look into neodymium magnetic generators? We can design those much easier than the casimir crystals, and they'll probably produce more energy. My memory is spotty, but doesn't the casimir effect require a vacuum? (Generators? That's also something that I haven't considered. You're like an idea power house.)

The tensile strength has indeed been an issue, but that's why we need a proper spinneret. So far we are a little limited in our spinning techniques because we can't use a coagulation bath. Dry spinning is the easiest for us, though it requires warm air to remove the solvent. The next was electro-spinning as all it takes is a current running through the fluid. the only issue with that is that the fibers produced are too small. Finally we have gel spinning, though that one is unlikely in a way unless we can replace the cooling water bath with the freezing powers of CO2.

How much pressure are you thinking about generating? I have an idea that's remained untapped due to the limitations of our pressure vessels.

Also, welcome to the forums!

 

[Peter Parkerish]

I'm not exactly sure to tell you the truth. I'm still learning about vinylon. I'm experimenting with coldness and tensile strength in films. If it can retain water and a decent tensile strength then we can test it in a shooter. If not, well have to find a way to remove water. That's all excluding the adhesive though.[/

First off WW, I just wanted to let you know that when it comes to chemistry I'm not really te brightest chap, and I really don't take offense of getting picked on. Most of these question I'm asking you is maintain a safety first environment
so once again I'm going to annoy with some more qeustions

1) will this formula give 3rd degree burns

2) If vinland has not been explored yet has cellustick, would you know how to prepare that for gel spinning

3) My final question is have you tried out any of these formulas

 

[White_widow]

The answer for all of those things is no. Let me explain them.

1.) No, burns are due to a chemical reaction. Since diamines (the cross-linking agents for many strong polymers) aren't biodegradable and because their by products tend to be harmful (not mention fumes), we won't be using them. Due to our limited resources, we are trying to use traditional polymer spinning techniques from the 50's and avoid using harmful chemicals. The most harmful thing you will find is acetone.

2.)Gel spinning requires a chemical bath. Now it might be possible to do it anyway if we can use the water and acetone in coordination with co2

3.) Cellustick, like vinylon and elastyrene are mostly theoretical. I've tested elastyrene, and it is too brittle. However, despite this, there were certain strands that came out that were cohesive enough to not lose their shape due to pressure.

I'm currently testing vinylon, because though it's hardening process is going to be a pain to figure out, it will be cheaper for us, stronger than any other idea we have if created correctly. The strength range of these fibers go from as strong as cotton to near as strong as steel (though those fibers are treated with more chemicals than we have access to)

Cellulose acetate is completely theoretical, but I know for a fact that it would work. It's a liquid that when forced through holes and heated (with WARM air) will turn into strands that were good enough to spin in the 50's. The only reasons I haven't tried this one immediately is because it would be more expensive and only as strong as polystyrene or weaker nylon.

 

[Peter Parkerish]

Well I wanted to try out the vinloyn formula, and try to add different adhesives I had in mind to it but I can't seem to find water soluable cement at homedepot, do any of you guys know where to get it?

 

[White_widow]

It's kind of rare. It doesn't necessarily have to be water soluble. I recommend any kind of easily soluble rubber.

 

[Peter Parkerish]

Ok thanks

 

[White_widow]

No prob.

 

[infinitecrator0]

so in an all summed up sort of way what is the best formula to go with for a spinning spinneret?

 

[Krinkleneck]

I can buy into that. To tell you the truth the idea of arcing electricity hadn't occurred to me. I simply wanted an explanation as to why you'd think it wouldn't spark the flame. I still think that the designing would have to be perfected, but I'm satisfied.

If you're looking into designing a sustainable power source, why not look into neodymium magnetic generators? We can design those much easier than the casimir crystals, and they'll probably produce more energy. My memory is spotty, but doesn't the casimir effect require a vacuum? (Generators? That's also something that I haven't considered. You're like an idea power house.)

The tensile strength has indeed been an issue, but that's why we need a proper spinneret. So far we are a little limited in our spinning techniques because we can't use a coagulation bath. Dry spinning is the easiest for us, though it requires warm air to remove the solvent. The next was electro-spinning as all it takes is a current running through the fluid. the only issue with that is that the fibers produced are too small. Finally we have gel spinning, though that one is unlikely in a way unless we can replace the cooling water bath with the freezing powers of CO2.

How much pressure are you thinking about generating? I have an idea that's remained untapped due to the limitations of our pressure vessels.

Also, welcome to the forums!

Stay away from magnetic generators. They are for transferring different types of power to electricity. These energies include but not only to combustion, wind, and water. Not only that they are clunky and usually over sized. I would use a hydrogen fuel cell before the mythical magnet generators which make over unity. Which unlike the cassimir effect it defies the laws of conservation of matter and energy for perpetual motion and over unity. Trust me if it existed I would be able to find news papers where people were killed my flying magnets due to the instability of their designs, and the ever increasing speed of the magnets.

 

[Krinkleneck]

for the cooling instead of using water we can quick cool it by having c02 discharge over our firing container or get some dry ice. It's 2.a.m. so I am throwing science at the wall and seeing what sticks.