Comics The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

[Donald Thomas]

Maybe "sense of entitlement" wasn't that fair, but I do feel like he's a lot more selfish than he used to be, even thoughtless. Like saving his elderly aunt at the expense of his marriage (not Slott's fault I know) or his ghost recently admitting he didn't want SpOck to save the girl in the hospital because it would tip him off to his presence. There's other examples. Maybe "too wrapped him up in himself" is a more accurate description. So I just don't see him caring about whether the Doctorate was earned fair and square.

Aloha,
I would disagree. I wrote just a while ago that Peter is greatly motivated by GUILT. When the true Peter gets his life back, he will be a Ph.D and Spidey will be a blackmailer,state sanctioned police force and a murderer. When the Black costume was controlling him in his sleep, it was only for crime fighting.Marvel will be able to feed off of Peter's guilt for another 50 years!The point with that little girl is that for one milli-second Peter considered NOT doing the right thingl Ock played on that Big Time. Peter was making a life and death decision-I don't think it's being "wrapped up in himself" to at least weigh the option.
Spidey rules

 

[KaineMorrison]

Donald, you just hit it home, but actually the opposite of what you wrote...
This is why when Peter comes back it will be in a different body...
That GhostPeter was specifically said to NOT be the real Peter! They needed the readers to know that the TRUE Peter would never feel, think or act that way! Since then Otto has done a lot more heinous stuff "in the name of good."
Peter will never be THAT Spider-Man again.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I didn't understand any of that.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Maybe "sense of entitlement" wasn't that fair, but I do feel like he's a lot more selfish than he used to be, even thoughtless. Like saving his elderly aunt at the expense of his marriage (not Slott's fault I know) or his ghost recently admitting he didn't want SpOck to save the girl in the hospital because it would tip him off to his presence. There's other examples. Maybe "too wrapped him up in himself" is a more accurate description. So I just don't see him caring about whether the Doctorate was earned fair and square.

I think you are confusing a lot of the BND day stuff with Slott's solo run. I agree with you that BND Pete was horrible, so many things wrong with the character. But, since Slott has taken over with Big Time, he's restored Pete to pretty much how he was, if not the 90's, but the 80's, and that is probably due to the marriage thing.

As far as saving the girl, first Pete did not trust Ock, second it was a momentary panic he would be discovered. Something any of us would feel in that situation. Pete did not continue to stop Ock and allowed him to continue. Ock only played on Pete's sense of guilt in that one instant to defeat a lingering conciousness of Pete. (We know the real Pete's "soul molecule" is probably floating out there, awaiting his return.)

 

[JewishHobbit]

I think you are confusing a lot of the BND day stuff with Slott's solo run. I agree with you that BND Pete was horrible, so many things wrong with the character. But, since Slott has taken over with Big Time, he's restored Pete to pretty much how he was, if not the 90's, but the 80's, and that is probably due to the marriage thing.

And therein lies the reason why it's the Inferior Spider-Man

 

[runawayboulder]

This knock against the 80's time-frame is ridiculous. Was Pete living a successful life...? No but he was nowhere as bad as he was a decade later under Mackie's pen.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I'd take the 90s Spider-Man over the 80s any day. And it isn't that I have anything against the 80s version of the character as much as we've already HAD that version. Things move forward and I like that things move forward. Starting from OMD, it does feel like it's just started going backward as far as characterization goes, and that's what I don't like. As you know, I hate character regression.

But we've had that debate before. No point in getting into it again.

 

[runawayboulder]

My point is that since Big Time started, the character had progressed...yet everyone still argues he regressed and points to BND to support their argument. That god damn story was 5 years ago.

 

[JewishHobbit]

My point is that since Big Time started, the character had progressed...yet everyone still argues he regressed and points to BND to support their argument. That god damn story was 5 years ago.

That's debatable. I remember when I was reading Big Time, I still felt like I was reading a regressed Peter Parker/Spider-Man. The stories themselves were good, but I didn't care for the depiction of the main character. Giving a character a job and money doesn't progress them. It's a temporary storyline.

But then, it'll probably always feel regression until he reaches the point from which he was first regressed. There might be progression from BND, but if it isn't caught up to pre-OMD, it's still a regressed book. Unfortunately, that's the way Quesada laid out the book's future due to how he handled OMD.

 

[Themanofbat]

Even though it was a crappy story, OMD was the best thing to happen to Spider-Man in 20 + years...

 

[ReignInBlood]

As a generalization, most comic characters are stagnant. Peter is the rare character that has grown as much as he has. High school, college, marriage. He was you and I and Marvel made the choice to make him do the things you and I do. But yeah they changed their minds. Hard to not feel he has regressed but I'm mostly over OMD, etc.

With that said, Spock is going to be with us as long as the book sells. I won't be surprised if he is still here when the second movie comes out. Also still think he is actually a brainwashed Pete. The doctorate will be earned and the ramifications will be all the more interesting when he regains his senses.

 

[runawayboulder]

Even though it was a crappy story, OMD was the best thing to happen to Spider-Man in 20 + years...

I disagree. I think they could have revitalized the character without that nonsense. And OMIT...? That made things even worse. Whatever, it's all in the past now. I know it has lasting ramifications and all but I'm satisfied where things are at the moment. I'm just glad that interference from outside is over.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Even though it was a crappy story, OMD was the best thing to happen to Spider-Man in 20 + years...

Oh, TMoB... you say the funniest things.

 

[HELL N' SPIDERS]

I think him joining the avengers and having his family move in with them was the smartest thing he had done in a long time...it solidified his hero role in the general public and made Mary Jane and Aunt May more immediate characters in other books...it was smartly written.

 

[runawayboulder]

Joining the Avengers, yes. Moving in with them, no. I didn't like the idea of MJ and Aunt May becoming Avengers support staff when they are so much more than that. I didn't like the unmasking either. It's painting yourself into a corner. They did a lot of that to the point where OMD almost became a necessity to fix all of those mistakes.

 

[Themanofbat]

Oh, TMoB... you say the funniest things.

I'll be here all week...

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Even though it was a crappy story, OMD was the best thing to happen to Spider-Man in 20 + years...

TMOB, I love ya, but, um.... no.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Joining the Avengers, yes. Moving in with them, no. I didn't like the idea of MJ and Aunt May becoming Avengers support staff when they are so much more than that. I didn't like the unmasking either. It's painting yourself into a corner. They did a lot of that to the point where OMD almost became a necessity to fix all of those mistakes.

All of those stories were stupid too. It's clear JMS's first couple years were a lot stronger than his last couple (starting around Sins Past).

However, I believe OMD was already in the pipeline when the unmasking happened. They knew where they were going with it.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Even though it was a crappy story, OMD was the best thing to happen to Spider-Man in 20 + years...

I doubt even Quesada believes that. Sometimes I really don't get you. If you really believe that... wow. Talk about drinking the single Spidey Kool-Aid at all costs.

 

[runawayboulder]

All of those stories were stupid too. It's clear JMS's first couple years were a lot stronger than his last couple (starting around Sins Past).

However, I believe OMD was already in the pipeline when the unmasking happened. They knew where they were going with it.

I think it was more of an out than it was a payoff. They knew those moves could backfire and it did. So we all had to suffer through OMD because they were so brazen about it.

 

[KaineMorrison]

If you go back and read the interviews around the time of Civil War a lot of the cryptic statements were about Spider-Man and the unmasking, and going on the run, and eventually getting remasked...
They knew exactly what they were doing...

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Yeah it wasn't an out. Have to agree with KM here. Remember OMD was originally going to be a JMS story, but instead of a Mephisto deal, Pete was going to go back in time to his college days and drop a dime on Harry for being a smackhead and save Gwen (yes, BND could have been worse. Gwen was supposed to come back). Quesada disagreed, JMS threw a tantrum and they basically rewrote the story they had been planning. But the broad idea of a marriage reset had been brewing long before the unmasking. It's just the details that came later.

 

[optimus2861]

Remember OMD was originally going to be a JMS story, but instead of a Mephisto deal, Pete was going to go back in time to his college days and drop a dime on Harry for being a smackhead and save Gwen (yes, BND could have been worse. Gwen was supposed to come back). Quesada disagreed, JMS threw a tantrum and they basically rewrote the story they had been planning. But the broad idea of a marriage reset had been brewing long before the unmasking. It's just the details that came later.

I thought it was still going to be a Mephisto deal, but the history-change in question was going to be, as you say, saving Harry from drugs. I think in JMS's words that would have enabled Marvel to bring back Gwen if they so desired but not necessarily demanded that they do so (although I think JMS was certainly leaning in that direction, since a no-drugs Harry doesn't cause Norman to revert to his GG persona in ASM #121).

JMS's error was in trying to write a logical change of history to undo the marriage, when all Quesada wanted was a magical hand-wave (which drove JMS nuts).

Ah well. Old tales.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I'd have hated either way but would have taken JMS' approach over Quesada's. I can at least appreciate when a story makes sense, even if I don't care for the story. Quesada's was a bad story that did bad things that made no sense. And his art wasn't that good either.

Plus, even with the marriage ended, I'd have likely been curious enough about Gwen's return to keep going for at least a trial time period.

 

[Themanofbat]

I thought it was still going to be a Mephisto deal, but the history-change in question was going to be, as you say, saving Harry from drugs. I think in JMS's words that would have enabled Marvel to bring back Gwen if they so desired but not necessarily demanded that they do so (although I think JMS was certainly leaning in that direction, since a no-drugs Harry doesn't cause Norman to revert to his GG persona in ASM #121).

JMS's error was in trying to write a logical change of history to undo the marriage, when all Quesada wanted was a magical hand-wave (which drove JMS nuts).

Ah well. Old tales.

I'd have hated either way but would have taken JMS' approach over Quesada's. I can at least appreciate when a story makes sense, even if I don't care for the story. Quesada's was a bad story that did bad things that made no sense. And his art wasn't that good either.

Plus, even with the marriage ended, I'd have likely been curious enough about Gwen's return to keep going for at least a trial time period.

JMS' ending would have DELETED over 30 YEARS of Spider-Man history.

EVERY story from ASM #96/98 onward would have never counted.

As bad as OMD was, at least it didn't take away from any of the stories that we've read. Say what you want about "married" versus "living together", but all those stories occured within canon, with Pete & MJ as a couple. The JMS ending would have meant that none of it happened.... which would have been FAR WORSE than the **** we got with OMD... in MY opinion

JMS's error was that he tried to "undo" most of the crap stories that he wrote during the last 3 years of his tenure as ASM writer.