Comics The SUPERIOR Spider-Man - Part 1

[runawayboulder]

I just pretend that OMD never happened and Pete and MJ just broke up after Back in Black.

Make believe is fun.

 

[KaineMorrison]

No 121 means no Jackal, no Ben, no Kaine...
Granted a LOT more and devastating effects would have happened, but still...

 

[Spider-Gnome]

JMS' ending would have DELETED over 30 YEARS of Spider-Man history.

EVERY story from ASM #96/98 onward would have never counted.

As bad as OMD was, at least it didn't take away from any of the stories that we've read. Say what you want about "married" versus "living together", but all those stories occured within canon, with Pete & MJ as a couple. The JMS ending would have meant that none of it happened.... which would have been FAR WORSE than the **** we got with OMD... in MY opinion

JMS's error was that he tried to "undo" most of the crap stories that he wrote during the last 3 years of his tenure as ASM writer.

This is true. JMS's solution would have wiped out EVERYTHING I read since I started back in '73! And I think JMS's story still had the Mephisto deal, so it was actually worse than Joe Q's idea. As nonsensical as it was, it left the stories more or less in tact.

Yeah, and it made things worse because JMS thought he could write crap like Sins Past, because he thought he was going to have it erased.

 

[runawayboulder]

Sins Past was supposed to be Peter's kids, not Norman's. Editorial interference was the bane of Spider-comics in the late 00's.

 

[JewishHobbit]

JMS' ending would have DELETED over 30 YEARS of Spider-Man history.

EVERY story from ASM #96/98 onward would have never counted.

As bad as OMD was, at least it didn't take away from any of the stories that we've read. Say what you want about "married" versus "living together", but all those stories occured within canon, with Pete & MJ as a couple. The JMS ending would have meant that none of it happened.... which would have been FAR WORSE than the **** we got with OMD... in MY opinion

JMS's error was that he tried to "undo" most of the crap stories that he wrote during the last 3 years of his tenure as ASM writer.

Then maybe instead of dividing Spider-Man's readership and giving the finger to 90s fans, they'd tick off the rest of you and everything would have been undone and Spider-Man would be readable. Because as far as I'm concerned, if they erased the marriage and the stories that came as a result (and no, OMIT's bull crap excuses do not erase that fact) then they can burn the whole rest of his history for all I care. They already ruined what I consider the best years of his life. I don't have any attachment to the rest that came before.

And if the idea of that upsets you in any way then you might have an inkling of what it was and is for people like me. Only for me it's a freaking reality.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Sins Past was supposed to be Peter's kids, not Norman's. Editorial interference was the bane of Spider-comics in the late 00's.

And I would have loved to see that.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Sins Past was supposed to be Peter's kids, not Norman's. Editorial interference was the bane of Spider-comics in the late 00's.

And that would of have been worse...

I mean the whole thing back then is worring Pete was too old because he's married... so you're going to give him ADULT KIDS??!!

I don't care who the father is, a retcon of fast growing twins from Gwen's past was/is IDIOTIC!!!

 

[runawayboulder]

Eh, whatever at this point. Like I said, I've made it a policy to ignore most of that stuff. Honestly, I think Marvel is heading towards a massive reboot in the next decade.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Tonight, on a whim, I decided to download "No One Dies" - the two-part Amazing Spider-Man story from Dan Slott and Marcos Martin that covered issues #655-#656 - on Comixology. And damn, that might just have been one of the best Spider-Man stories I've ever read.

 

[Themanofbat]

 

[runawayboulder]

Tonight, on a whim, I decided to download "No One Dies" - the two-part Amazing Spider-Man story from Dan Slott and Marcos Martin that covered issues #655-#656 - on Comixology. And damn, that might just have been one of the best Spider-Man stories I've ever read.

It's certainly in the conversation. Best Spidey story of the previous 20 years.

 

[Donald Thomas]

Tonight, on a whim, I decided to download "No One Dies" - the two-part Amazing Spider-Man story from Dan Slott and Marcos Martin that covered issues #655-#656 - on Comixology. And damn, that might just have been one of the best Spider-Man stories I've ever read.

Aloha,
Agreed.
Even before his Gung fu training, Peter operated from a code of conduct regarding his powers and what he should do with them. No One Dies reflected Peter at his highest principles.
Spidey rules

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Best Spidey story of the previous 20 years.

In all honesty I haven't read those issues, but it'd be pretty tough to top ASM # 400. But I'll give it a shot on comixology, which is honestly my favorite app on my iPhone. Hardly ever have to hunt for back-issues now, at least from Marvel and DC. Wish they carried more indie books though.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I'd have hated either way but would have taken JMS' approach over Quesada's. I can at least appreciate when a story makes sense, even if I don't care for the story. Quesada's was a bad story that did bad things that made no sense. And his art wasn't that good either.

I just don't understand how they thought a deal with the Devil to sacrifice his marriage and retcon their future child would somehow be less controversial than a simple divorce. I would have disliked a divorce, but we wouldn't be talking about it five plus years later (at least not nearly as much as we are). At least a divorce, as out of character as it may be, could have been rooted in reality since Spidey is intended to be a street-level character, not a book for devil-dealing, mass mindwiping nonsense.

 

[JewishHobbit]

In all honesty I haven't read those issues, but it'd be pretty tough to top ASM # 400. But I'll give it a shot on comixology, which is honestly my favorite app on my iPhone. Hardly ever have to hunt for back-issues now, at least from Marvel and DC. Wish they carried more indie books though.

Amazing 400 is better in my opinion, but Amazing Spider-Man #655-#656 (particularly #655) is right up there in that range.

I just don't understand how they thought a deal with the Devil to sacrifice his marriage and retcon their future child would somehow be less controversial than a simple divorce. I would have disliked a divorce, but we wouldn't be talking about it five plus years later (at least not nearly as much as we are). At least a divorce, as out of character as it may be, could have been rooted in reality since Spidey is intended to be a street-level character, not a book for devil-dealing, mass mindwiping nonsense.

Or just kill her off. I know they didn't want to go through a long period of grieving, but it'd have been better than what we got.

 

[optimus2861]

JMS' ending would have DELETED over 30 YEARS of Spider-Man history.

I loathe this argument. The 30-year-old comics would still be in your hands. You could still read them, still enjoy their stories, still be emotionally moved by them. I still own the wedding annual, still own many of the issues from when Peter & MJ were married. I still own Harry Osborn's death issue, and Aunt May's; those issues are beautiful reads to this day. Marvel's stupid magical hand-waving of all that history doesn't remove those books from my possession or mean those stories didn't happen. I didn't like what Marvel did in any of those cases (and I don't read the comics any more anyway) but those books aren't "deleted from history".

All stories end, or move on, or are rebooted or reimagined. I admit I find it mildly amusing that a retcon is something to be so vigorously opposed, but Marvel can kill the hero and replace him with the villain and that's ... celebrated? I don't get comic book fans sometimes.

But as I said, I gave up on reading comic books quite some time ago. I stick to the cartoon & movie adaptations instead. So take my $.02 worth at a discount.

 

[JewishHobbit]

While I disagree with you, optimus, TMoB has always agreed with what you said there.

At least... until it shifted from the marriage era to comics HE cares about

 

[Themanofbat]

I loathe this argument. The 30-year-old comics would still be in your hands. You could still read them, still enjoy their stories, still be emotionally moved by them. I still own the wedding annual, still own many of the issues from when Peter & MJ were married. I still own Harry Osborn's death issue, and Aunt May's; those issues are beautiful reads to this day. Marvel's stupid magical hand-waving of all that history doesn't remove those books from my possession or mean those stories didn't happen. I didn't like what Marvel did in any of those cases (and I don't read the comics any more anyway) but those books aren't "deleted from history".

I can't get into it 'too much" on account that I'm at work...

Yes, you're right... they did happen, and like the "after the marriage" stories, they still happened... it all happened... it's all canon, it's all part of Spider-Man's history...

The OMD solution did not erase those stories, as they all still exist within Marvel history, but in lieu of a married couple, they were just "living together"... that might seem like a HUGE difference, or maybe just a small hindrance, depends on which side of the fence you are standing, but THEY STILL HAPPENED according to the character's right history.

IF the JMS solution had gone into effect... yes, those stories are still available and within some type of history, but it would have meant a "hardcore reboot" of the character. We'd be starting over with something brand new.

The beautiful aspect of writing Spider-Man today is you can STILL reference any of those old stories, because they occurred in said character's history.

The JMS solution would have made that effectively impossible.

There is a difference.

There IS a difference between reading a "married Spider-Man" comic that is now a "living together Spider-Man" comic, versus a "Gwen gets killed" comic to a "it never happened in New Continuity" comic.

And you know it.

No need to be obtuse.

All [/B]stories end, or move on, or are rebooted or reimagined. I admit I find it mildly amusing that a retcon is something to be so vigorously opposed, but Marvel can kill the hero and replace him with the villain and that's ... celebrated? I don't get comic book fans sometimes.

Monthly serialized fiction, by it's very definition, means that there is no end... not without a hard reboot, something which I believe Marvel wants to avoid so as to not eliminate its rich history, as well as wanting to avoid being "NewDC", and a good story is a good story, so "Superior" is merely another chapter in the never ending life of our featured hero, Peter Parker... whose story is far from over.

 

[Themanofbat]

While I disagree with you, optimus, TMoB has always agreed with what you said there.

At least... until it shifted from the marriage era to comics HE cares about

I like and care about ALL my Spider-Man comics... I don't place any importance to any "era", though admittedly, I like some of them more than others.

Christ, it's 5 years later and I feel like I still have to explain myself.

I wasn't a fan of OMD when it happened... I don't like "reboots" for lack of a better word, but I was willing to give Marvel the benefit of the doubt and gave them within 18 to 24 months to explain all the "differences" between pre OMD and BND... and as time went on, things were given logical explanations... some of them were dumb, but an explanation is better than NO explanation at all... as long as I can connect the dots, then it works with me.

 

[optimus2861]

There IS a difference between reading a "married Spider-Man" comic that is now a "living together Spider-Man" comic, versus a "Gwen gets killed" comic to a "it never happened in New Continuity" comic.

And you know it.

No need to be obtuse.

I'm as big a Star Trek fan as they come. The new movies rebooted the entire Trek universe via time travel. By your .. "argument", that should mean that I can't watch nor enjoy an episode of classic Star Trek, or Next Generation, or any other series any more. Simply untrue. Nothing obtuse about it. (That said, Into Darknesssucked and all but drained my enthusiasm for the new series...)

Eh, this isn't really the place to go into my views on the long history of comic book universes. Since I'm no longer a buyer of their books, Marvel don't care what I think anyway

 

[Themanofbat]

I'm as big a Star Trek fan as they come. The new movies rebooted the entire Trek universe via time travel. By your .. "argument", that should mean that I can't watch nor enjoy an episode of classic Star Trek, or Next Generation, or any other series any more. Simply untrue.

I agree with you.

You can "enjoy" anything at the time that you happen to be "enjoying" it...

The word "enjoy" is not the correct word...

What I mean to say is that ALL the Spider-Books, likewise, all the old Star Trek episodes, still have REVERENCE to one another, old and new books alike... there's a connection, and what happened in any of these books still matter in regards to the new books that come in month in and month out...

A "hard reboot" makes the older material, while still enjoyable, irrelevant.

The JMS ending would have resulted in a hard reboot... something Marvel did not want.

Just my two cents...

 

[runawayboulder]

Or just kill her off. I know they didn't want to go through a long period of grieving, but it'd have been better than what we got.

It had already been done by Howard Mackie during his loathsome run. Yeah, it was a fake death but most of those types of stories had already been done (awfully, might I add).

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

It had already been done by Howard Mackie during his loathsome run. Yeah, it was a fake death but most of those types of stories had already been done (awfully, might I add).

It was awful. But it wasn't nearly as awful as OMD. Look, there were no good solutions to separate Pete and MJ (which is why it shouldn't have been done in the first place) but there were less-bad solutions. Death, divorce, banishment... almost any hackneyed story would have been better than what we got.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

It was awful. But it wasn't nearly as awful as OMD. Look, there were no good solutions to separate Pete and MJ (which is why it shouldn't have been done in the first place) but there were less-bad solutions. Death, divorce, banishment... almost any hackneyed story would have been better than what we got.

People always say that, and it's a terribly stupid thing to say. How do you know anything would've been better? Stories are always dependent on both idea and execution. Just because you like the idea of MJ dying over the deal with Mephisto doesn't mean it would've been better. It would've had just as much chance to be worse than OMD than it did better.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

It was awful. But it wasn't nearly as awful as OMD. Look, there were no good solutions to separate Pete and MJ (which is why it shouldn't have been done in the first place) but there were less-bad solutions. Death, divorce, banishment... almost any hackneyed story would have been better than what we got.

There's your answer. No problems...