What is better: Evil Villains or sympathetic villains?

[November Rain]

I don't believe the joker is insane....

If the joker is insane then so is batman....


they both lie on the outer regions of sanity and are polar opposites, both believing their actions will ultimately resolve some sort of continually driving inner desire to fulfill some purpose. Either redemption or amusement. I don't think either are particularly sympathetic but they work together.

 

[November Rain]

As for the question, I believe every hero needs a villain they can be sympathetic towards regardless if we the viewer find that same amount of sympathy towards them.

I think it would also be nice to have a villain that we as a viewer can sympathise with but the hero simply cannot then drawing some question into if we believe the hero themselves are doing the right thing.

My favourite is a villain with a moral code of his own. A man is their word and their word alone. I like villains that although i don't approve of their methods, I can respect them and know that if the crap hits the fan, they know they have as much to lose as everyone else and will join the fight. In a word, that is Doom. In another, Kraven.

I also like computational villains, those which you cannot reason with, that are programmed to carry out orders based on their own logic which is technically correct although unhumane. That's why I really like skynet from the terminator as well as some forms of braniac.

most other villains end up having issues because they weren't breastfed, meh...

 

[Mutagen]

There's room for all types. I find myself enjoying the whole gamut of villain types.

What I really do not like and do not approve of, on the other hand, is the notion that someone could be or could have been a completely evil bastard...and yet still try to say, "Oh, but see they're actually good deep down, you know?" Like you want it both ways -- an evil guy, but he's actually good! -- but sometimes those both ways simply can not coexist.

I remember the controversy that existed and still exists for Waid's "Unthinkable" arc, where he made Dr. Doom wear the skin of his one true love, and for Morrison's "Planet X" arc, where he made Magneto an out-of-control dictator. And I completely agree with both Waid and Morrison. So many writers and readers have gotten it into their heads what big, fluffy, misunderstood woobies those two actually are, and while that does have its place, it's about high time someone remembered what those big fluffy misunderstood woobies are also capable of. How many times have we heard the fandom actually say out loud "Magneto is right!" or "Doom is right!" at this point? It's ridiculously comical, because they're not right. It got to the point where, when Doom's "resurrection" came about in Civil War, a whole gamut of fanpersons were actually attempting to make the argument that Doom could lift Mjolnir. Which is insanity. Yes, they are tragic figures. Yes, they are sympathetic. Yet they are also tragic, sympathetic figures who have flirted with torture, murder, and genocide more times in canon than most real-world figures have. They're not right. They're not good.

I believe it was more along the lines of who was "worthy," I still think he should've been worthy. Attaining godhood twice can make you worthy enough imo. Oh well, the writers said he wasn't, and it's over and done with.

On a different note, it makes the hero seem more heroic when he decides to spare the life of a completely evil being, someone no one else would let live another second.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Doctor Doom is in no way worthy to lift Thor's hammer. I was terrified that JMS would let him lift it in FF, back before I realized how well JMS understood Thor.

 

[November Rain]

Doom lifting it would have been a sweet twist.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

No. No, it wouldn't.

 

[November Rain]

I'm all in favour of doom wielding all the big focal powers of the universe at one point or another.

Personally I'd rather see him do it via overriding odin's enchantment rather than being deemed worthy if that makes it any more acceptable. Knowing he's the only creature possible of doing so would be completely badass.

 

[The Overlord]

I don't see his interpretation as being incongruous. If anything, I see it as tying all the vastly different interpretations of the character together. While the common trend with The Joker is to portray him as a stone cold killer, the fact remains that his character has varied wildly from writer to writer, even by the standards of mainstream American comics. Morrison's idea takes the stone cold serial killer Joker, the high profile thief Joker, the sarcastic crime boss Joker, the hate filled urban terrorist Joker, the harmless prankster Joker, and the Dadaist cult leader/anti-hero Joker, and says that it's all the same, deeply disturbed individual. I would argue that the reason he almost always plays the role of the villain, and the reason why he often falls into the roll of the sociopathic criminal mastermind, is because of Batman. If he follows any kind of logic, it's the logic of a performer. In his mind, he's an actor on a stage, and his life is a show he's putting on. Batman serves as the perfect straight man, in that regard.

Really, though, the thing is that I just find the idea of The Joker shifting his personality on a whim to simply be much more interesting that just having him be an eccentric sociopath. I think it allows writers to do almost anything they want with the character, making him much more versatile, and I think it illustraits the chaos/order duality of The Joker and Batman a lot more strongly. But I think at this point we're getting down to a matter of personal preference and interpretation.

The problem is Joker has been written solely as a stone cold killer for the past 15 years.

When is the last time he did anything harmless? Also if his personality changes every day, how can he weave complex, pre mediated plans all the time, would he just lose interest the next day?

Joker hasn't been written as insane for a long time, he has been written as psychopathic.

 

[fifthfiend]

I'm a fan of the completely insane Joker. The Joker who would take potshots at random spots in Gotham City with a sniper rifle because he was bored, then disappear when he found something else to do.

See I'd like to see the Joker doing that but only when it fits a punch line. Like some harried lawyer or something is going through the day from hell where client X is demanding this and client Y is demanding that and his wife is ****ing the gardener and he's just like "Oh just ****ing shoot me" and then BLAM! his head explodes from a high-caliber sniper round and the Joker's on an opposing rooftop laughing his ass off.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's so cheesy, though. I like to think the Joker's jokes are only funny to him because, again, he's so bloody cracked that the world looks vastly different through his eyes.

I'm all in favour of doom wielding all the big focal powers of the universe at one point or another.

Personally I'd rather see him do it via overriding odin's enchantment rather than being deemed worthy if that makes it any more acceptable. Knowing he's the only creature possible of doing so would be completely badass.

But, really, a middling sorcerer like Doom, who has to bargain with demons to amass anything close to an impressive command of magic, shouldn't be able to touch Odin's magic with a ten-foot pole. Loki straight up outclassed Dr. Strange when he was starting out as Sorcerer Supreme, and Odin's far, far more powerful than Loki. And we all know worthiness is out of the question because pretty much everything about Doom runs counter to Odin's idea of worth. Basically, the only somewhat plausible way I could see of Doom getting the power of Thor's hammer is by building another machine like the one he stole the Power Cosmic from the Surfer with, and even then, the power's going right back to Thor as soon as Thor gets his hand on Mjolnir again.

 

[Mutagen]

I don't believe the joker is insane....

If the joker is insane then so is batman....


they both lie on the outer regions of sanity and are polar opposites, both believing their actions will ultimately resolve some sort of continually driving inner desire to fulfill some purpose. Either redemption or amusement. I don't think either are particularly sympathetic but they work together.

Insanity is not a bad thing, certainly Batman has characteristic of a mental patient, like obsession and inhuman compassion, even if his ideas make sense on all levels. If it weren't insane to dress up like a Bat and fight a one man war on crime, people would actually do it in real life. Batman and the Joker are crazy, not stupid or wrong, just crazy. Just because it makes sense, doesn't mean it's sane.

 

[PemLam]

Pure, bottomless pit evil...senseless & random acts of violence evil...

No sympathy needed here!

 

[November Rain]

That's so cheesy, though. I like to think the Joker's jokes are only funny to him because, again, he's so bloody cracked that the world looks vastly different through his eyes.

But, really, a middling sorcerer like Doom, who has to bargain with demons to amass anything close to an impressive command of magic, shouldn't be able to touch Odin's magic with a ten-foot pole. Loki straight up outclassed Dr. Strange when he was starting out as Sorcerer Supreme, and Odin's far, far more powerful than Loki. And we all know worthiness is out of the question because pretty much everything about Doom runs counter to Odin's idea of worth. Basically, the only somewhat plausible way I could see of Doom getting the power of Thor's hammer is by building another machine like the one he stole the Power Cosmic from the Surfer with, and even then, the power's going right back to Thor as soon as Thor gets his hand on Mjolnir again.

I don't think it's out for Doom to find a loop hole in one spell, especially if he is purely just concentrating on one spell and has apparently been doing so for a number of years. I don't mind it being taken back as soon as thor gets his hands on it, that'll be the plot device to stop him.

If it was anyone else, i'd understand but this is victor von doom, the most capable human in all fiction.

 

[Havok83]

Try decades. I'm pretty sure he was an X-man in the 80s.


Worst male villain menopause ever.

It made sense. It wasnt an instant thing but something that gradually builded up over years. Magneto works best as an anti-villian. He has good motives, just messed up ways of going about achieving his goals

 

[Arach Knight]

I know that Dr. Doom is fairly high up on the magic user chain of command, but I could not imagine him being able to create a disenchantment that could break the one that Odin placed on Mjolnir. Now I could see Doom creating a device controls Thor, thus essentially allowing him to have indirect use of the hammer...

 

[fifthfiend]

I'd like to see Doctor Doom think he's found a loophole that will let him lift Thor's hammer, and then he tries it and totally fails.

And blames Richards.

 

[THANOSRULES]

I think it depends on the Story.

Sometimes complex villians are cool.

Sometimes a story demands a black moustached top hat wearing bad guy, chaining a chick to the train tracks kind of evil.

Sometimes villians are heroes and heroes are villians...

I like 'em all if executed right.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'd like to see Doctor Doom think he's found a loophole that will let him lift Thor's hammer, and then he tries it and totally fails.

And blames Richards.

That sort of story would be more my speed.

Granted, I'd want it done a little bit better than JMS did it in FF. Doom literally failed to lift the hammer and then just ran away like a little girl.

 

[Vanguard07]

Machinery can be used to lift the hammer. I could see Doom modifying/enchanting his armor to allow him to wield it.
Like it's clear that he himself isnt deemed worthy of the hammer, he's just cheating and hiding himself from the enchantments and using outside forces to tap into the magic.

Either way it's not like he'd manage to keep it for long. Doom or not, Thor "Would have words with" the poor man.

 

[The Question]

When is the last time he did anything harmless? Also if his personality changes every day, how can he weave complex, pre mediated plans all the time, would he just lose interest the next day?

I don't think they Morrison meant that his personality automatically changes every day like clockwork. He'd keep going along with his plans until he lost interest, which could be a week later or on hour later. Perfect example of this is in Gotham Central: The Joker became a humorless, stone cold sniper wielding serial killer just because, and gave up that persona a couple of weeks later later for the same reason.

And like I said, I personally think he's drawn more towards the villainous roles because of Batman.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Machinery can be used to lift the hammer. I could see Doom modifying/enchanting his armor to allow him to wield it.
Like it's clear that he himself isnt deemed worthy of the hammer, he's just cheating and hiding himself from the enchantments and using outside forces to tap into the magic.

Either way it's not like he'd manage to keep it for long. Doom or not, Thor "Would have words with" the poor man.

Machinery can lift it, but it won't transfer its power to the machinery.

 

[venom892]

Didn't the joker give up his Criminal/murderous ways when he thought Batman died?He became Joe Kerr I believe.

 

[The Overlord]

I don't think they Morrison meant that his personality automatically changes every day like clockwork. He'd keep going along with his plans until he lost interest, which could be a week later or on hour later. Perfect example of this is in Gotham Central: The Joker became a humorless, stone cold sniper wielding serial killer just because, and gave up that persona a couple of weeks later later for the same reason.

And like I said, I personally think he's drawn more towards the villainous roles because of Batman.

The problem is, again, how many insane people commit the kind of pre-mediated acts that Joker does? When was the last time he did anything harmless?

For the last 15 years, how often has Joker not been written as psychopath?

 

[The Question]

The problem is, again, how many insane people commit the kind of pre-mediated acts that Joker does? When was the last time he did anything harmless?

For the last 15 years, how often has Joker not been written as psychopath?

Even though he's rarely done anything harmless in the past 15 years (which, as I said, I credit to his interactions with Batman), what he does has been so varied and, in many cases, contradictory, that it supposed Morrison's idea. He's been a serial killer, a terrorist, a political assassin, a cult leader, a crime boss, a thief, and various combinations thereof. And even how he carries himself, from being a quietly smiling psycho to being a flamboyant and over the top cartoonish super villain, has varied.

I go with the Morrison approach for two reasons: One, it helps the continuity, tying all the various versions of the character together, and two, it's a hell of a lot more interesting than simply having him be an eccentric sociopath.

 

[Mutagen]

Even though he's rarely done anything harmless in the past 15 years (which, as I said, I credit to his interactions with Batman), what he does has been so varied and, in many cases, contradictory, that it supposed Morrison's idea. He's been a serial killer, a terrorist, a political assassin, a cult leader, a crime boss, a thief, and various combinations thereof. And even how he carries himself, from being a quietly smiling psycho to being a flamboyant and over the top cartoonish super villain, has varied.

I go with the Morrison approach for two reasons: One, it helps the continuity, tying all the various versions of the character together, and two, it's a hell of a lot more interesting than simply having him be an eccentric sociopath.

What was his life pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths? Did his personality change with the worlds? I'm not too familiar with how his character acts through all these changes.

Yes, it would make sense to give him a mental disorder. However when I was little, growing up, I used to think of him effected by the chemical bath, that created his appearance, to warp his mind into a level not yet conceivable by medical or psychological science. That he's so crazy that he he's crazier than anyone can imagine. I thought that was the idea once. After growing older I kinda forgot about it until I tried to understand his ways once again.

Just a thought.

BTW being an eccentric sociopath is interesting enough for any character, no need to keep adding and adding and adding until you have a cluttered mess no one likes to go through. Keeping it simple is often the better approach.