Why are the villains in the Ultimate Universe so boring?

[The Overlord]

Why are the villains in the Ultimate Universe so boring? Most of the villains have no interesting motive or back story or personality, most of them are one dimensional characters that twirl mustaches.

Why are there so few sympathetic villains in the ultimate Universe? Ultimate magneto is a one dimensional villain might as well have a mustache to twirl, ultimate doom seems to have none of the nobility 616 Doom has and even ultimate Curt Connors came across as kinda user in the carnage arc.

I mean didn't they do what Bruce Timm did with Mr. freeze and take some B-list villain and make him more sympathetic. I mean how has bendis retooled Electro, Sandman or Vulture in the UU, they are all flat characters, who share the same personality, greedy stupid thugs. They are all inferior to their 616 counterparts. When couldn't Bendis have made one of those sympathetic, instead of another greedy thug.

 

[bryanss3]

you forgot Ultimate Mister Sinister. lol

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

When couldn't Bendis have made one of those sympathetic, instead of another greedy thug.

Lack of ability?

I would honestly say 9/10 times his villains come off as rather boring.

 

[bryanss3]

Have you seen ultimate Red Skull. he's Cap's son, but SHIELD confiscated him? so he's evil and the Red Skull. it probably won't make sense, but Millar's name is on it so it will sell. People complaining about Loeb's Ultimates don't realize Millar's Ultimates(which was much better than Loeb's) only sold because of the names attached.

 

[The Overlord]

you forgot Ultimate Mister Sinister. lol

I actually like Ultimate Sinister, it was at least an interesting twist on the character.

Lack of ability?

I would honestly say 9/10 times his villains come off as rather boring.

Well he did revamp Purple Man, so I know he can do it.

 

[kguillou]

Now way dude. Millar's Ultimates is critically acclaimed for a reason. The quality in that book was a million times better than Loeb's Ultimates. Heck, Ultimates 1&2 is the reason why Millar's books sell now. Loeb's Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum sold purely because of his name and the artist, but there was zero quality in those books.

And i wouldnt say the Ultimate villains are boring, ALOT of them had great personality. Yes Ultimate Mags is an evil f*** compared to 616 Mags, but ultimate Norman Osborn was much more chilling and interesting than 616 norman. Read the first green goblin arc in Ultimate Spiderman and tell me he wasnt a badass villain.

 

[CombatRock319]

I absolutely agree. and i agree even more post-Ultimatum. the ultimate villians were one-dimensional and uninteresting. the most interesting ultimate villian was green goblin (and he really wasn't that interesting). if you read ultimate x-men during the sinister arc, you might also agree that mr. sinister got a really cool treatment. i mean come on, pushing prof x down the stairs? who the hell does that? hahah. anyways i think you've got a really good point, but there is hope. when millar revamps ultimate avengers later this year, it looks like red skull plans to be really cool. he's supposedly cap's illegitimate son, who is now an neo-nazi international terrorist.

idk, i'm looking forward to it.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Now way dude. Millar's Ultimates is critically acclaimed for a reason. The quality in that book was a million times better than Loeb's Ultimates. Heck, Ultimates 1&2 is the reason why Millar's books sell now. Loeb's Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum sold purely because of his name and the artist, but there was zero quality in those books.

And i wouldnt say the Ultimate villains are boring, ALOT of them had great personality. Yes Ultimate Mags is an evil f*** compared to 616 Mags, but ultimate Norman Osborn was much more chilling and interesting than 616 norman. Read the first green goblin arc in Ultimate Spiderman and tell me he wasnt a badass villain.

I liked Ultimate Spider-Man when it first started but 616 Norman is far superior to Ultimate Norman. I actually found Ultimate Green Goblin to be horrendous.

 

[Dark Victory]

Now way dude. Millar's Ultimates is critically acclaimed for a reason. The quality in that book was a million times better than Loeb's Ultimates. Heck, Ultimates 1&2 is the reason why Millar's books sell now. Loeb's Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum sold purely because of his name and the artist, but there was zero quality in those books.

And i wouldnt say the Ultimate villains are boring, ALOT of them had great personality. Yes Ultimate Mags is an evil f*** compared to 616 Mags, but ultimate Norman Osborn was much more chilling and interesting than 616 norman. Read the first green goblin arc in Ultimate Spiderman and tell me he wasnt a badass villain.

Agreed. Don't forget Dock Ock, Hobgoblin, Elektra, and the Kingpin. Bendis did a great job with those characters, imo. I've yet to to complete Millar's Ultimates run; I picked up the first volume and liked it, but I have other tpbs I'm more focused on.

 

[CombatRock319]

Agreed. Don't forget Dock Ock, Hobgoblin, Elektra, and the Kingpin. Bendis did a great job with those characters, imo. I've yet to to complete Millar's Ultimates run; I picked up the first volume and liked it, but I have other tpbs I'm more focused on.

dude, Hobgoblin was possibly the lamest USP arc ever. it was just another green goblin story. nooooo originality.

 

[Drz]

Have you seen ultimate Red Skull. he's Cap's son, but SHIELD confiscated him? so he's evil and the Red Skull. it probably won't make sense, but Millar's name is on it so it will sell. People complaining about Loeb's Ultimates don't realize Millar's Ultimates(which was much better than Loeb's) only sold because of the names attached.

Millar's Ultimates 1 & 2 were awesome because of the heroes. It was a beatiful way of re-making modernized version of beloved characters. I absolutely love Captain America, Thor & Iron Man of the Ultimate Universe, Wasp was also a spicy badass woman but by god i hate Antman/Giantman for having such rage issues. >: (

Red Skull's ultimate origin may seem abit "what?" but how about we wait and see before we judge?

 

[hippie_hunter]

Ultimate Captain America is too much of a *****e and Ultimate Thor is too much of a hippie for me to like

Frankly, I find Millar's heroes to be too damn *****ey.

 

[Dark Victory]

dude, Hobgoblin was possibly the lamest USP arc ever. it was just another green goblin story. nooooo originality.

...then again I haven't read the arc since I was about nine...

 

[CombatRock319]

hahaha nothing personal Dark Victory...

USP was kinda like the Roman Empire. it was good for a while, before it went to hell, clones started running around, and kitty pride (yes kitty. i know she's an x-man. don't ask me) was magically peter parker's girlfriend.

where's ultimate power pack when you need it?

 

[Drz]

Ultimate Captain America is too much of a *****e and Ultimate Thor is too much of a hippie for me to like

Frankly, I find Millar's heroes to be too damn *****ey.

Hey just because they are heroes doesn't mean they can't be *****es. Besides i love how everyone kept saying Thor was a insane nutjob and then in Ultimates 2 we get the Asgard army coming thru a rainbow! BRILLAINT I TELL YA!

 

[hippie_hunter]

Hey just because they are heroes doesn't mean they can't be *****es. Besides i love how everyone kept saying Thor was a insane nutjob and then in Ultimates 2 we get the Asgard army coming thru a rainbow! BRILLAINT I TELL YA!

Except their all *****es. Captain America was a French hating *****e who refused to look past 1945. Hank Pym was a wife beating *****e. The Wasp was a stupid *****e who keeps going back to her abusive husband. Iron Man is an untrusting *****e named Antonio. Black Widow is a traitorous *****e. Thor is a hippie *****e. Hulk is a sociopathic *****e. And Loeb turned Hawkeye into a *****e.

I mean having one *****e on a team is enough. But an entire team of them for crying out loud!

 

[The Overlord]

Agreed. Don't forget Dock Ock, Hobgoblin, Elektra, and the Kingpin. Bendis did a great job with those characters, imo. I've yet to to complete Millar's Ultimates run; I picked up the first volume and liked it, but I have other tpbs I'm more focused on.

Personality wise I don't see how any of those villains are that different from their 616 counterparts. I mean you can't reinvent the wheel so there isn't much you do could to improve the originals, but you can't see they have been retooled if they have the same personality.

Here's the real question, what has Bendis done to retool Electro, Sandman or Vulture? Because non iconic villains, B-listers, is really where you can improve a character. Look at what Bruce Timm did Mr. Freeze, he redefined the character. All three of those characters are vastly inferior to their 616 counterparts.

Plus after reading the first volume of Ultimates, can you really say the villains were that important to the story? Kleiser was ok, he was relevant to the plot, but he was hardly memorable.

Ultimate Captain America is too much of a *****e and Ultimate Thor is too much of a hippie for me to like

Frankly, I find Millar's heroes to be too damn *****ey.

Meh, I consider them like a fun house mirror version of the avengers, its kinda interesting that they are warped and twisted. I wouldn't have wanted them to be exactly like the 616 avengers.

I do think they take the black and gray morality theme too far though, to the point the heroes can seem like jerks and the villains all seem like cartoon characters.

 

[Drz]

Except their all *****es. Captain America was a French hating *****e who refused to look past 1945. Hank Pym was a wife beating *****e. The Wasp was a stupid *****e who keeps going back to her abusive husband. Iron Man is an untrusting *****e named Antonio. Black Widow is a traitorous *****e. Thor is a hippie *****e. Hulk is a sociopathic *****e. And Loeb turned Hawkeye into a *****e.

I mean having one *****e on a team is enough. But an entire team of them for crying out loud!

So how should these modern era superheroes be like then? =X I'm curious now how would you change them if you can be bothered ofcourse!

 

[hippie_hunter]

So how should these modern era superheroes be like then? =X I'm curious now how would you change them if you can be bothered ofcourse!

I would like these so called "modern era" superheroes act slightly less *****ey. Frankly, Bendis would have been more suited for the Ultimates if you ask me.

With his Ultimate Spider-Man, sure there were some changes, but Spider-Man still felt like Spider-Man. Millar just decided to have some *****e dress up like Captain America, go way too far with the abusive angle of Hank Pym, raped Black Widow's character, made Thor a ****ing hippie for crying out loud, etc. The only character I think he got right was Nick Fury.

Even in Civil War, Millar made the heroes act like a bunch of *****ebags, especially Captain America and Iron Man. At least Bendis and the Knaufs tried to make Iron Man sympathetic by making him regret his actions and Brubaker tried to make Captain America intelligent.

 

[kguillou]

Well, I do agree that Ultimate Cap is a bit more hardcore than 616 Cap, but there's a reason for that. The whole purpose of the Ultimate Universe was to answer the question "What would the classic marvel heroes be like in today's modern society?". That was what was so great about Ult. Spidey and the Ultimates, they were more down to earth versions of the iconic characters. Come on let's face it, nobody was even interested in Thor until Millar toned him down in Ultimates and now even Stracynski is following his lead with his GREAT run on Thor. Ultimate Iron Man was badass, remember during the fight with the Liberators when Tony pulled out that humongous Ironman model and obliterated everyone? When Has 616 Tony done that? Look at Ultimate Hawkeye too. The guy took out a whole room of badguys with his fingernails! Brilliant! For once even the Wasp actually seemed like a cool superhero as well and no one's ever cared about the wasp.

And Cap, yes, Ultimate Cap is a bit of a *****e, no argument there, but he's still the same patriotic man who fights for his country. He's willing to do the things that 616 Cap would not do to protect America. Now was for this new Red Skull storyline, personally i think its brilliant. What would you do if the diabolical man who stood against everything you believed in was your own son? The story practically writes itself. At least its much better than the same old Nazi wannabe who somehow shot 616 Steve Rogers through time and space with a magic bullet.

 

[Drz]

Hippie Hunter i don't really see why you got so much againts Thor being a "hippie" >_> The guy was pretty much: "hey American goverment! You want my help? Well start spending some money on these organizations you bastards!" I mean he was on a quest to save the earth, do you really think him just being a happy scoutboy and doing what the American goverment wanted would have been better? :X Also we have to remember Captain America is a 1930s/1940s man. He respects women hugely, he has christian beliefs and i wonder will he feel guilt about having a bastard son, i doubt there gonna go all "jesus christ" on since its more about Captain America having a son, and really Red Skull having the captain america serum on his blood veins is just brilliant! The guy might be +60 years old but he might be just in his 20s/30s physically.

 

[GyLocke]

For me, making villains "sympathetic" feels extremely forced in most cases. The Spider-man movie franchise is particularly guilty of this (I could take Doc Ock, and his tragic loss of wife and mentoring peter in one - ONE - scene, but when Sandman had a little sick girl to take care of... without resolution... damn! And they've used the same thing on Vulture in the comics.) Like Doc Ocks "I'll just run the city for you, because I'm a good guy, but I mess it up for anger issues... HOW TRAGIC!" plan in ASM 600. it doesn't work. There are no fates like this.
Ultimate always aimed to be more realistic so that's why there are lots of superpowered thugs - because in our world, there are lots of thugs. People who do crimes for a variety of complex reasons (society, genes, upbringing, mental problems etc) and not some life changing accident or some noble cause.

But if you want Ultimate Villains who are not outright evil, look at the Regulators from Ultimates 2. From their perspective, they were defending their countries. They were patriots, manipulated by Loki's magic. That's pretty sympathetic.

 

[The Overlord]

For me, making villains "sympathetic" feels extremely forced in most cases. The Spider-man movie franchise is particularly guilty of this (I could take Doc Ock, and his tragic loss of wife and mentoring peter in one - ONE - scene, but when Sandman had a little sick girl to take care of... without resolution... damn! And they've used the same thing on Vulture in the comics.) Like Doc Ocks "I'll just run the city for you, because I'm a good guy, but I mess it up for anger issues... HOW TRAGIC!" plan in ASM 600. it doesn't work. There are no fates like this.
Ultimate always aimed to be more realistic so that's why there are lots of superpowered thugs - because in our world, there are lots of thugs. People who do crimes for a variety of complex reasons (society, genes, upbringing, mental problems etc) and not some life changing accident or some noble cause. .

Not really there lots of people in history where people can argue whether that person is good or bad (Napoleon, Josif Tito, Che Guevara), not everything is black and white, there are gray areas. So saying gray villains are not realisitic is not true.

Also can you really say there are have not any good examples of sympathetic, can you really say 616 Magneto was a better character before Claremont revamped into a sympathetic character, where he was one dimensional villain before that. What about Mr. Freeze, can you really say that he has better character before he was revamped into a sympathetic character. What Captain Cold, written by Geoff Johns, was it a bad thing that johns

Besides there lots of evil characters go didn't work, Carnage is one of the worst Spidey villains ever, because all he did was chop people up, every time. Ultimate Magneto is another bad evil villain, he seems act like a dick for no reason, why is he like that, he just seems evil for evil's sake and he's dull. So there many evil villains that are bad characters as well. It depends on the writing.

What I want is a balance, some evil villains and some sympathetic ones, just so you have villains who don't all have same personality.

t if you want Ultimate Villains who are not outright evil, look at the Regulators from Ultimates 2. From their perspective, they were defending their countries. They were patriots, manipulated by Loki's magic. That's pretty sympathetic.

You mean the Liberators?

I disagree, Abomination and Crimson Dynamo seemed ready to commit mass murder at the drop of hat, they were monsters and the group is immoral for having them as members. Plus they were killed off so quickly I didn't attached to them.

Well, I do agree that Ultimate Cap is a bit more hardcore than 616 Cap, but there's a reason for that. The whole purpose of the Ultimate Universe was to answer the question "What would the classic marvel heroes be like in today's modern society?". That was what was so great about Ult. Spidey and the Ultimates, they were more down to earth versions of the iconic characters. Come on let's face it, nobody was even interested in Thor until Millar toned him down in Ultimates and now even Stracynski is following his lead with his GREAT run on Thor. Ultimate Iron Man was badass, remember during the fight with the Liberators when Tony pulled out that humongous Ironman model and obliterated everyone? When Has 616 Tony done that? Look at Ultimate Hawkeye too. The guy took out a whole room of badguys with his fingernails! Brilliant! For once even the Wasp actually seemed like a cool superhero as well and no one's ever cared about the wasp.

And Cap, yes, Ultimate Cap is a bit of a *****e, no argument there, but he's still the same patriotic man who fights for his country. He's willing to do the things that 616 Cap would not do to protect America. Now was for this new Red Skull storyline, personally i think its brilliant. What would you do if the diabolical man who stood against everything you believed in was your own son? The story practically writes itself. At least its much better than the same old Nazi wannabe who somehow shot 616 Steve Rogers through time and space with a magic bullet.

You really saying red Skull as written by Brubaker is a bad character and not better then say Kleiser? Considering we haven't even seen Ult. Red skull in action we can't say he is better then 616 Skull.

And there plenty of villains where the 616 versions are better then the Ultimate version, like Doom and Magneto.

 

[GyLocke]

Not really there lots of people in history where people can argue whether that person is good or bad (Napoleon, Josif Tito, Che Guevara), not everything is black and white, there are gray areas. So saying gray villains are not realisitic is not true.

Also can you really say there are have not any good examples of sympathetic, can you really say 616 Magneto was a better character before Claremont revamped into a sympathetic character, where he was one dimensional villain before that. What about Mr. Freeze, can you really say that he has better character before he was revamped into a sympathetic character. What Captain Cold, written by Geoff Johns, was it a bad thing that johns

Besides there lots of evil characters go didn't work, Carnage is one of the worst Spidey villains ever, because all he did was chop people up, every time. Ultimate Magneto is another bad evil villain, he seems act like a dick for no reason, why is he like that, he just seems evil for evil's sake and he's dull. So there many evil villains that are bad characters as well. It depends on the writing.

What I want is a balance, some evil villains and some sympathetic ones, just so you have villains who don't all have same personality.

You mean the Liberators?

I disagree, Abomination and Crimson Dynamo seemed ready to commit mass murder at the drop of hat, they were monsters and the group is immoral for having them as members. Plus they were killed off so quickly I didn't attached to them.

Yes, there are some. But not every single villain needs a tragic backstory. I don't need Sandman or Electro to be some misunderstood tragic character. There are *******s in the world, and if some of them get powers, they behave like that: *******s with powers.

Carnage wasn't that bad in his first appearance: someone with Superpowers who you can't reason with, someone, who doesn't have complicated plans, who won't take hostages. He just wants to kill, and now, he has the power to do it. I liked it. Too bad it was the 90's so we soon had Maximum Carnage and whatnot.

 

[The Overlord]

Yes, there are some. But not every single villain needs a tragic backstory. I don't need Sandman or Electro to be some misunderstood tragic character. There are *******s in the world, and if some of them get powers, they behave like that: *******s with powers.

But to contrast that, if every villain was just some SOB, its going to get really boring, because all the villains are same and one dimensional and they get boring. I like a balance, having some evil villains and sympathetic villains, like in AoV there was contrast between Magneto and the Red Skull or the X-Men universe there is a contrast between Magneto and Apocalypse or in Daredevil there is a good contrast between sympathetic villains like Elektra or Typhoid Mary or Gladiator and really evil villains like Bullseye or Mr. Fear. In DC Captain Cold is often contrastred with more evil villains who have no standards. All of that is more interesting then in the UU, where Magneto eats puppies for no reason. I think contrasting sympathetic and evil villains is far more intresting then just having bunch of evil villains get into a puppy eating contest. Variety is the spice of life, why wouldn't you want some variety in the villains' personality?

Plus not all criminals are really bad people, same are criminals because of where they grew up or lack of a good education. That's 616 Sandman's backstory and I think that's interesting, more interesting then Ultimate Sandman who is evil for no reason. Also in the real world they are criminally insane people who have no cotrol over their actions, those people can be seen as tragic. In the 616 universe Gladiator's mental illness is treated like a tragic event, in the UU, its treated like a joke, one is more interesting then the other.

Plus there are ways of making a villain sympathetic without getting into their back story. One could just put the character in a story where they are a victim instead of victimizer, like Ultimate Electro:

"When Electro seems to escape from prison with outside help, Spider-Man begins to worry about the return of this powerful foe, but when Electro is not seen from for weeks, this worry begins to slip his mind. Meanwhile Obadiah Stane has opened a new experimental power station that sells free ulimaited power to NYC. At first this seems like God send, until Spidey disocers the truth behind this so called free umlited power."

Carnage wasn't that bad in his first appearance: someone with Superpowers who you can't reason with, someone, who doesn't have complicated plans, who won't take hostages. He just wants to kill, and now, he has the power to do it. I liked it. Too bad it was the 90's so we soon had Maximum Carnage and whatnot.

That's lame, that's like a circular motive, he's a serial killer because he kills and he kills because he kills because he's serial killer, there's no direction that can take the character. He's completely one dimensional. He's not even clever or stylish, he's just some brute, so every story with him is the same, he chops up innocent civilians, yawn. He doesn't fit with Spider-Man's world, he sucks, he's a prime example of 90s extremeness. The story featuring Doc Ock in ASM 600 is way better then any story that featured Carnage ever!

I would take any sympathetic villain over an "extreme" villain like Carnage, any day.