Why are the villains in the Ultimate Universe so boring?

[random_havoc]

Except their all *****es. Captain America was a French hating *****e who refused to look past 1945. Hank Pym was a wife beating *****e. The Wasp was a stupid *****e who keeps going back to her abusive husband. Iron Man is an untrusting *****e named Antonio. Black Widow is a traitorous *****e. Thor is a hippie *****e. Hulk is a sociopathic *****e. And Loeb turned Hawkeye into a *****e.

I mean having one *****e on a team is enough. But an entire team of them for crying out loud!

Ult Cap is far superior to 616 Cap at least as far as being realistic to the origin he was given. 616 cap is a soldier yet refuses to kill? The attitude they gave ult Cap, the fact that he's willing to kill, and the fact that he's prejudiced against the french (who surrendered to the nazis) all make perfect sense given the character.

The wasp returning to her abusive husband is also realistic as the majority of abused women return to the abuser (sad but true).

How is iron man untrusting?

Black Widow was a traitor. A former communist spy who actually betrays the US? Ridiculous! She should have stayed completely loyal and been exactly like the 616 character!

I could go on...

 

[kguillou]

I agree random_havoc, i think alot of people are just so used to the marvel heroes being such noble do-gooders that its a little jarring seeing a more hardcore version of them. Of course Millar injected just the right amount of "hardcore" into them and then Loeb blew it way out of proportion. Millar's Ultimates were still very noble but they were willing to go a little bit further than their 616 counterparts.

 

[random_havoc]

That's lame, that's like a circular motive, he's a serial killer because he kills and he kills because he kills because he's serial killer, there's no direction that can take the character. He's completely one dimensional. He's not even clever or stylish, he's just some brute, so every story with him is the same, he chops up innocent civilians, yawn. He doesn't fit with Spider-Man's world, he sucks, he's a prime example of 90s extremeness. The story featuring Doc Ock in ASM 600 is way better then any story that featured Carnage ever!

I would take any sympathetic villain over an "extreme" villain like Carnage, any day.

And yet Carnage is a favorite Spidey villain to many people, and on top of that is a realistic portrayal in the sense that many brutal killers out there don't have any understandable reason for being as sick as they really are. So it's not only a realistic character but a popular one (which is probably a contributing reason why they changed venom into a nearly exact copy when they made Gargan into venom)

 

[DACMAN]

Agreed. I think, they think it's trendy to beat up on the Ultimate Universe or something.

 

[kguillou]

I think people are still shocked that Captain America actually stabbed somebody with a lightsaber. lol

 

[random_havoc]

Anyway I'm going to talk about two villains who thought were vastly inferior in the UU: Dr. Doom and Magneto.

Ultimate Doom is pretty lame, he has goat legs, he was bum in his first appearance, then he became a less impresive clone of 616 Doom, then he went to zombie world and then Thing killed him. That just sucks. Also his origin is lame, its the usual cliched "Daddy beat me, so now I'm bad" stuff you have seen a billion times before, instead of the epic origin 616 Doom. Ultimate Doom is not a Magnificent Bastard, like 616 Doom is. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard

Ultimate Magneto is another vastly inferior villain, he went from a complex anti Villain to one dimensional mustache twirling monster with no real motive in the UU and contradictary back story. He was lame before, but Ultimatum made him even worse, where he seemed to try to destroy the world for no reason other then he was obessed with the story of Noah's Ark. What, did he get high one night, read the bible and liked the story of Noah's Ark so much that he decided to play it out in the real world? Then he decides he was wrong because Jean Grey reveals mutants were created by humans (which was stupid in the first place.)

All of that is really stupid, it be like Dr. Octopus reading Hansel and Gretel, dressing up like witch and luring children to house made out of candy, so he can cook them in pies.

Magneto and Doom are interesting characters in the 616 universe, but in the UU, they suck.

Okay, regarding Doom, yes, the Ult version is vastly inferior to 616. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone that disagrees with that.

However, you're arguments that Magneto needs a reason to want to kill all humans baulks in the face of real-life's greatest mass-murderer: Hitler.

All Hitler really did was take the evolutionist philosophy to it's ultimate logical conclusion: that there are those who are superior and those who are inferior. Having concluded that the Germans were superior and jews, blacks, handicapped, etc inferior he set about exterminating the inferior so that their inferior genetics would not contaminate that of the superior and so that the superior wouldn't have to deal with the actions of the inferiors.

Ult Magneto is like Hitler except that he is actually right in that he knows for a fact that mutants are genetically superior (not in intellect or morality but at least in capability). Therefore his actions make perfect sense.

P.s. Yes, Hitler was a monster, don't think me explaining his logic means I agree with it at all

P.p.s. Although Ultimatum was comics at their worst, Magneto deciding to wipe out most of the earth was actually one of the few things in it that made sense. He's already been shown to be willing to murder en masse, the idea that he'd do it to the world in order to eliminate all his enemies at once is not a big stretch at all.

 

[kguillou]

I had no problem with the concept behind Ultimatum, it was just the execution that sucked. All i wanted was an all out battle between the marvel heroes and magneto and Loeb managed to screw even that up.

 

[Franklin Richards]

I stopped reading Ultimatum at 2. Plus I didn't read the FF : Requiem.


Are the FF still alive? And did they just retire?

 

[kguillou]

They're alive and Johnny Storm's living with Peter Parker now.

 

[Blader5489]

Have you seen ultimate Red Skull. he's Cap's son, but SHIELD confiscated him? so he's evil and the Red Skull. it probably won't make sense, but Millar's name is on it so it will sell. People complaining about Loeb's Ultimates don't realize Millar's Ultimates(which was much better than Loeb's) only sold because of the names attached.

Except, before the Ultimates, Millar wasn't a big name. And I think the only major thing Hitch was really known for back then was his work on The Authority.

 

[kguillou]

Exactly Blader, Millar became a big name BECAUSE of ultimates 1&2. There's a reason why many people including myself consider Ultimates one of the best comics to come out this decade.

 

[Aztec]

All Hitler really did was take the evolutionist philosophy to it's ultimate logical conclusion: that there are those who are superior and those who are inferior. Having concluded that the Germans were superior and jews, blacks, handicapped, etc inferior he set about exterminating the inferior so that their inferior genetics would not contaminate that of the superior and so that the superior wouldn't have to deal with the actions of the inferiors.

I think you meant to say "Social Darwinist" philosophy. There is nothing in the theory of evolution that lends any credence to Social Darwinism, genocide, Hitler's actions, or racism of any kind.

As to your other points I agree with you on your praise of The Ultimates and its realistic portrayal of the characters. They all felt like living breathing people who could exist, not simply comic book superheroes (which their Marvel Proper counterparts often do). I hope Millar remembers this as he writes UA and doesn't go too insane with action sequences (which I hear UA #1 is full of)*.

Although I disagree with you on Loeb's handling of Magneto. It was just a silly "kill 'em all" motive and it failed to fit his character.

*I'm trade waiting Ultimate Avengers!

 

[The Overlord]

Okay, regarding Doom, yes, the Ult version is vastly inferior to 616. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone that disagrees with that.

However, you're arguments that Magneto needs a reason to want to kill all humans baulks in the face of real-life's greatest mass-murderer: Hitler.

All Hitler really did was take the evolutionist philosophy to it's ultimate logical conclusion: that there are those who are superior and those who are inferior. Having concluded that the Germans were superior and jews, blacks, handicapped, etc inferior he set about exterminating the inferior so that their inferior genetics would not contaminate that of the superior and so that the superior wouldn't have to deal with the actions of the inferiors.

Ult Magneto is like Hitler except that he is actually right in that he knows for a fact that mutants are genetically superior (not in intellect or morality but at least in capability). Therefore his actions make perfect sense.

P.s. Yes, Hitler was a monster, don't think me explaining his logic means I agree with it at all

P.p.s. Although Ultimatum was comics at their worst, Magneto deciding to wipe out most of the earth was actually one of the few things in it that made sense. He's already been shown to be willing to murder en masse, the idea that he'd do it to the world in order to eliminate all his enemies at once is not a big stretch at all.

Except his actions don't sense, because he tortures his children for no other reason then their mother is human.

Also another problem is there is no compelling debate between Ultimate Magneto and Xavier. In the 616 universe Magneto and Xavier could have an enpassioned debate on what mutants could do defend rights, they would have different ideas, but they could both reasonably present thier cases.

In the Ultimate universe Xavier could make a passionate debate of how mutants can defend their rights and Magneto will just eat in puppies in response. There is no interesting debate about mutants in the UU, because Magneto is such a monster, you instantly side with Xavier, there is no interesting debate about mutants in the UU, its kinda dull.

Another problem because Magneto is not an Anti Villain in the UU, there is a serious lack of Anti Villains in the UU in general. Its kinda dull that the villains are just evil for evil's sake in the UU.

I think you meant to say "Social Darwinist" philosophy. There is nothing in the theory of evolution that lends any credence to Social Darwinism, genocide, Hitler's actions, or racism of any kind.

As to your other points I agree with you on your praise of The Ultimates and its realistic portrayal of the characters. They all felt like living breathing people who could exist, not simply comic book superheroes (which their Marvel Proper counterparts often do). I hope Millar remembers this as he writes UA and doesn't go too insane with action sequences (which I hear UA #1 is full of)*.

Although I disagree with you on Loeb's handling of Magneto. It was just a silly "kill 'em all" motive and it failed to fit his character.

*I'm trade waiting Ultimate Avengers!

So realism means the villains have to be one dimensional mustache twirling characters who are evil for evil's sake? Screw realism then, that's dull, this is fiction after all.

Besides there are many examples of gray villains in real life that people debate as to whether they were good or bad: Josif Tito, Napoleon Che Guevara. Aren;t those people realistic, because they existed in real life?

Why does realism also have to mean villains are just one dimensional psychopaths, that's not realistic to me, what's realsitic to me is villains with a wide variety of motives and personalities, something that is lacking in the UU.

 

[Alastor]

Ult Cap is far superior to 616 Cap at least as far as being realistic to the origin he was given. 616 cap is a soldier yet refuses to kill? The attitude they gave ult Cap, the fact that he's willing to kill, and the fact that he's prejudiced against the french (who surrendered to the nazis) all make perfect sense given the character.

I always hated Ult. Caps attitude towards the French, it was more of an ignorant, modern redneck, anti-french view of what happened in WW2. Cap was there, he knows that even though the French were overwhelmed, there was the French Resistance that battled against the Nazis throughout the war. Bru touched on this during his run, which I appreciated. Besides that bit, I generally enjoyed Ult. Cap's characterization.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Yeah. I love it when Captain America is prejudiced.

 

[random_havoc]

Yeah. I love it when Captain America is prejudiced.

Please cite for me exactly how Cap is prejudiced. Yes, he made a (very funny) comment the referred negatively to the fact that the French are known for having surrendered to the nazis, but jumping on that and calling him prejudiced is no better than the ignorance of the people who tried to get people calling fries "freedom fries". It's overreactive ignorance.

In his mind it is still fresh that the French surrendered to the Nazis, he obviously perceives it as a terrible/cowardly thing to do, hence the funny comment about based off that clear fact. Sure it's not all super duper politically correct, but then again I don't see that kind of near paranoid levels of political correctness being a good thing anyways.

As for the comments about the french resistance, yes they were certainly doing their part but at the same time it's a fair representation of the cap character to go either way, because well there was a french resistance that it's possible cap would've respected all the french because of, it's also possible that a person in that position would respect the small minority who were fighting back while still being angry the the surrender by the much larger majority of the nation.

 

[random_havoc]

There is no interesting debate about mutants in the UU, because Magneto is such a monster, you instantly side with Xavier, there is no interesting debate about mutants in the UU, its kinda dull.

Again, Magneto has been put in the Hitler role here, not the Malcolm X role. The fact that you don't like it doesn't mean it's automatically bad storytelling or characterizing no matter how many times you name-call it that.

So realism means the villains have to be one dimensional mustache twirling characters who are evil for evil's sake? Screw realism then, that's dull, this is fiction after all.

This is only YOUR TASTE. A number of people even just on this board have already disagreed with you and stated that they liked the characters and characterization.
If Sam Raimi has your attitude then I'm not at all surprised by the fact that he's ruined the Spidey movies by having virtually every villain be not really responsible for their actions (ie, Goblin only murderous because of chemicals making him nuts, Doc Ock only because of computer chips controlling him, Sandman cuz of sick kid). Next movie will focus on Cletus Kassidy, the poor but hopeful Sunday School teacher who gets turned into a murderous psychopath against his will by the evil symbiote.

 

[Ion Kenshin]

This is only YOUR TASTE. A number of people even just on this board have already disagreed with you and stated that they liked the characters and characterization.
If Sam Raimi has your attitude then I'm not at all surprised by the fact that he's ruined the Spidey movies by having virtually every villain be not really responsible for their actions (ie, Goblin only murderous because of chemicals making him nuts, Doc Ock only because of computer chips controlling him, Sandman cuz of sick kid). Next movie will focus on Cletus Kassidy, the poor but hopeful Sunday School teacher who gets turned into a murderous psychopath against his will by the evil symbiote.

I HATE THAT!! Why can't a bad guy just be a bad guy. Enough with the giving them a motive. Some villains just want to be that....villains.

 

[The Joker]

Yeah, Raimi really watered down the villains in the movies.

 

[Aztec]

So realism means the villains have to be one dimensional mustache twirling characters who are evil for evil's sake? Screw realism then, that's dull, this is fiction after all.

I was referring to The Ultimates not the villains. There were only two real main villains in The Ultimates: Chitauri and Loki. The Chitauri are an alien race hellbent on order so they aligned with the Nazis. Loki is a mischief maker who wants to ruin Thor's life. Both served their purpose and you'd be hard-pressed to call Loki a "one dimensional mustache twirler".

 

[The Overlord]

I HATE THAT!! Why can't a bad guy just be a bad guy. Enough with the giving them a motive. Some villains just want to be that....villains.

Why can't you have both, some bad guys who are evil and some who are sympathetic?

 

[Ion Kenshin]

Why can't you have both, some bad guys who are evil and some who are sympathetic?

Im not saying you cant have both but movie wise it's all we have received. I want it to be changed up a bit. But they say Raimi is fond of doing that with his villains so i dunno. I'm hopeful though

 

[The Overlord]

I HATE THAT!! Why can't a bad guy just be a bad guy. Enough with the giving them a motive. Some villains just want to be that....villains.

Why can't you have both, some bad guys who are evil and some who are sympathetic? Why does it have to be either or. I'm just saying there are almost no sympathetic UU and so the villains come across as being too similar to each other.

Again, Magneto has been put in the Hitler role here, not the Malcolm X role. The fact that you don't like it doesn't mean it's automatically bad storytelling or characterizing no matter how many times you name-call it that.

Yeah it is my opinion, that's the point, that's what these discussions are about expressing our opinions and in opinion Ultimate Magneto is not very compelling and is very dull.

I don't find the UXM universe very morally complex, if Magneto is just a mustache twirling villain. Sure Ultimate Xavier is a gray character, but put him next to Ultimate Magneto he looks like a saint, its not very complex.

616 Magneto is far more interesting because you can make contrasts against other characters very well, like the X-Men because they want the same thing, but they have different methods of achieving it. You can also contrast Magneto against other more evil villains like Sinister, Apocalypse and even the Red Skull.

With ultimate Magneto you don't get these character contrasts.

Frankly the with the 616 universe you get a way better balance between evil and sympathetic villains, because I think of lots of evil and lots of sympathetic villains in the 616 universe. There is very little differences in morality between the UU villains, so they come across as a pretty similar and dull bunch.

This is only YOUR TASTE. A number of people even just on this board have already disagreed with you and stated that they liked the characters and characterization.
If Sam Raimi has your attitude then I'm not at all surprised by the fact that he's ruined the Spidey movies by having virtually every villain be not really responsible for their actions (ie, Goblin only murderous because of chemicals making him nuts, Doc Ock only because of computer chips controlling him, Sandman cuz of sick kid). Next movie will focus on Cletus Kassidy, the poor but hopeful Sunday School teacher who gets turned into a murderous psychopath against his will by the evil symbiote.

And I know lots of people who agree with me, what's your point. Plus I lot of people I know liked the take on Dr. Octopus in the movies, so what's your point about that?

I don't see how Gobby was sympathetic in the films, he was a total jerk in the movies before he even took the chemicals, so I don't see how he was supposed to be sympathetic. You would need a wider definition of sympathetic to apply that to Gobby. Plus how was Venom sympathetic in the movies? There you go, some unsympathetic villains.

Also Carnage shouldn't be in a Spidey movie at all, because he sucks, hard. He some over the top "kewl" "extreme" 90s villain, who doesn't even fit in with Spider-Man's title, its stupid. He's so 90s and so unintersting.

Besides I think there more unsympathetic villains in comic book movies in general then sympathetic ones, example: Both versions of the Joker, Scarecrow, Bullseye, Kingpin, Dr. Doom, Venom, Green Goblin, Iron Monger, Abomination, David Banner, William Stryker, Sabertooth, Lex Luthor and General Zod. So overall in the comic book movies you get a pretty good balance of sympathetic and non sympathetic villains

That's more examples of unsympathetic villains then sympathetic ones.

See you are putting word in my mouth, I don't want all sympathetic villains, but I don't want all unsympathetic villains either, I a want balance between the two types, what is so wrong with that?

Do you think it was wrong for Paul Dini to turn Mr. Freeze into a sympathetic villain or Geoff Johns to turn Captain Cold into a sympathetic villain or for Chris Claremont to turn Magneto into a sympathetic character back in the 70s? Is it always a bad thing to try and make a villain sympathetic?

Besides there many examples of a writer making a villain unsympathetic that haven;t worked either, I haven't seen many people liked it when they made dr. Light into a rapist, so clearly you can also screw up when trying to make a evil villain, so what does that tell you? Its all in the execution, that's what makes either an evil or sympathetic villain work or not work, that doesn't mean they can't work.

 

[The Overlord]

Im not saying you cant have both but movie wise it's all we have received. I want it to be changed up a bit. But they say Raimi is fond of doing that with his villains so i dunno. I'm hopeful though

What about Venom and Green Goblin? I didn't think either of them were sympathetic.

Besides is the opposite any better, because that's what I feel like you get with the UU, where almost all the villains are evil for evil's sake and it gets tiresome after a while.

Also as a noted before there are tons of villains in comic book movies in general who are not sympathetic: there more unsympathetic villains in comic book movies in general then sympathetic ones, example: Both versions of the Joker, Scarecrow, Bullseye, Kingpin, Dr. Doom, Venom, Green Goblin, Iron Monger, Abomination, David Banner, William Stryker, Sabertooth, Lex Luthor and General Zod. So overall in the comic book movies you get a pretty good balance of sympathetic and non sympathetic villains

 

[hippie_hunter]

Ult Cap is far superior to 616 Cap at least as far as being realistic to the origin he was given. 616 cap is a soldier yet refuses to kill? The attitude they gave ult Cap, the fact that he's willing to kill, and the fact that he's prejudiced against the french (who surrendered to the nazis) all make perfect sense given the character.

616 Cap has killed. And considering that he fought with the French resistance in World War II his disrespect to the French is atrocious.

The wasp returning to her abusive husband is also realistic as the majority of abused women return to the abuser (sad but true).

Still makes me go ugh over how they turned a one time incident for Hank Pym into something overblown.

How is iron man untrusting?

Taking down Black Widow the way he did, using nanites in her bloodstream. Who the hell would be so untrusting to do such a thing.

Black Widow was a traitor. A former communist spy who actually betrays the US? Ridiculous! She should have stayed completely loyal and been exactly like the 616 character!

The real Black Widow would have never betrayed the Avengers (or the Ultimates in this case). She is a respected member in the hero community.

My point is that Ultimates should have just been more like Ultimate Spider-Man in which was something new, yet the same character we all knew and loved.