What The Hell Happened To Christianity?

[SoulManX]

He should have gone to a podiatrist.

jag

Tough feet

 

[The Lizard]

The only religion so far that we can empirically prove to be false is Mormonism.

Wilhelm, I know that being raised in Utah apparently resulted in your having a giant axe to grind against the LDS church and its members, but I'm curious as to how Mormonism can be "empirically" disproved any more than any other faith-based religion.

 

[jaguarr]

Wilhelm, I know that being raised in Utah apparently resulted in your having a giant axe to grind against the LDS church and its members, but I'm curious as to how Mormonism can be "empirically" disproved any more than any other faith-based religion.

He explained it in this very thread, I think. Poke around, you'll find it.

jag

 

[The Lizard]

He explained it in this very thread, I think. Poke around, you'll find it.

jag

I suppose you're refering to this post:

But no. I'm saying that their perfect God revealed to them that the Indians of the Americas were the lost tribe of Israel and a Mormon geneticist used DNA to prove for a fact that there is no such recent relation between them and was promptly excommunicated for it.

However, in the "standard works" that the Mormon church considers cannon; the King James Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine and Covenants, there is no direct statement that any particular existing American Indian tribes were desendants of Israel. The modern introduction to the Book of Mormon does state that the Lamanite tribe mentioned in the book were the "principal ancestors" of the American Indians, but there is no claim that they were the only ancestors and that there was no mingling of other racial stock. Now, that didn't stop the early church leaders from proclaiming it was so, and in more recent decades there's been a lot of backpedalling and focus on various Meso- and South American cultures being the supposed descendants of this race of displaced Israelites. Arguably that was all a big mistake unless one follows theories of "genetic swamping" of the original Hebrew DNA, but since Mormonism is a faith that believes in the ability of their prophets to hypothesize and even make assumptions that can later be clarified or even changed, that really isn't a big sticking point for faithful Mormons.

Please note that I'm not saying that these Mormon beliefs are true, or that they don't completely lack any logic or scientific evidence, but this Native American example isn't really the great key to proving the Mormon faith wrong as Wilhelm says. Believe me, there are plenty of well-educated Mormons out there that think that they have answers to any and all "empirical proofs" that their faith can be debunked. I'm not saying they're right, but it's far from as cut-and-dry as Mormon critics make it seem sometimes.

-And as far as the Mormon geneticist who got excommunicated from the church (assuming we're talking about the same guy- Thomas Murphy), Wilhelm neglected to mention that the geneticist came to his conclusions, then proceeded on a seminar tour where his main message was that since the Native Americans weren't genetically related to the Israelis, that meant that the Book of Mormon was a work of fiction. It was his right to say that of course, but it's also the right of the Mormon church to excommunicate a church member who goes on a paid tour proclaiming that his entire religion is based on BS.

 

[JewishHobbit]

You used to be a born again Christian? How'd that work out for ya?

Oh I'm still a christian. Just that when I was a new christian I was very judgemental. It wasn't until a few years later that I began to see how I was being and how it contradicted to what Jesus taught.

 

[Kyalesyin]

Oh I'm still a christian. Just that when I was a new christian I was very judgemental. It wasn't until a few years later that I began to see how I was being and how it contradicted to what Jesus taught.

I wish everyone could mellow out like you have.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I wish everyone could mellow out like you have.

Yeah, there's a way to witness that's accually effective, and it isn't to tell everyone they're going to hell in a handbasket. You can debate and discuss your faith without being insulting or just downright annoying, and typically people will be more willing to listen to you when you do. It's been a while since I've been in a debate on here, but I think most will agree that I keep pretty respectful. Abortion is my only weakness, but it has nothing to do with my faith. I just lose my cool on it because of my own personal opinions. I'm still working on that one.

 

[Eros]

so where exactly does the christian church stand on gays, im not gay ofcourse, but i keep hearing conflicting reports that they think gays are evil or something.

 

[Kyalesyin]

Yeah, there's a way to witness that's accually effective, and it isn't to tell everyone they're going to hell in a handbasket. You can debate and discuss your faith without being insulting or just downright annoying, and typically people will be more willing to listen to you when you do. It's been a while since I've been in a debate on here, but I think most will agree that I keep pretty respectful. Abortion is my only weakness, but it has nothing to do with my faith. I just lose my cool on it because of my own personal opinions. I'm still working on that one.

Abortion is one that flares me up to, although something tells me we're on opposite sides of the fence. I have trouble keeping an open mind in debates too, and I know when I was younger I was terrible for not listening to other people views.

We should get into it sometime, see how it works out.

 

[Eros]

Abortion is one that flares me up to, although something tells me we're on opposite sides of the fence. I have trouble keeping an open mind in debates too, and I know when I was younger I was terrible for not listening to other people views.

We should get into it sometime, see how it works out.

If you dun mind me asking, what exactly is your stance on Abortion?

 

[Kyalesyin]

If you dun mind me asking, what exactly is your stance on Abortion?

Pro up to 24 weeks, under any circumstance. Pro up to 40 weeks for rape/incest/endangerment of life to the mother. Minimum two doctors required to make the yes or no, and more education about contraception so that its only ever as a last resort.

 

[Eros]

Pro up to 24 weeks, under any circumstance. Pro up to 40 weeks for rape/incest/endangerment of life to the mother. Minimum two doctors required to make the yes or no, and more education about contraception so that its only ever as a last resort.

very very interesting, ask for me i am not on any side of the arguement. Its a choice much like anything else, only the person can make that choice. Wheter i think its "Wrong" or "right" it doesn't matter, because its not my choice to make.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I'm pretty much flat out anti all the way around. I can be pursuaded if the mother's life is in danger and it's one or the other, but that's about it.

But that's about as far as I go without eventually biting Kyalesin's head off


As for the church's stance on homosexuality, it varies depending on church, denomination, and interpretation. My personal stance is that I am very much against it, but homosexuals are humans like anyone else and their sins are no worse than mine. I will treat them respectfully and may even become friends with them, but if ever the topic comes up, I will maintain my stance (respectfully) and let him know why. If a homosexual wishes to come into my church, then I'll accept him openly. He has to understand my stance, as well as the rest of those who attend, and I would not water down our teachings against it, but the teachings should still remain respectful. Don't tolerate it, but don't condemn the person either. The sin is what's evil, not the man or woman.

 

[Kyalesyin]

very very interesting, ask for me i am not on any side of the arguement. Its a choice much like anything else, only the person can make that choice. Wheter i think its "Wrong" or "right" it doesn't matter, because its not my choice to make.

Having been in a position where had I not misscarried I'd have had to make the choice, I'm glad its available. Personally, I would like abortion to be exctinct. I would be over the moon if nobody ever had an abortion because there was no need. I doubt that will ever be the case, and under some circumstances it is very nessecary.

 

[Kyalesyin]

I'm pretty much flat out anti all the way around. I can be pursuaded if the mother's life is in danger and it's one or the other, but that's about it.

But that's about as far as I go without eventually biting Kyalesin's head off


As for the church's stance on homosexuality, it varies depending on church, denomination, and interpretation. My personal stance is that I am very much against it, but homosexuals are humans like anyone else and their sins are no worse than mine. I will treat them respectfully and may even become friends with them, but if ever the topic comes up, I will maintain my stance (respectfully) and let him know why. If a homosexual wishes to come into my church, then I'll accept him openly. He has to understand my stance, as well as the rest of those who attend, and I would not water down our teachings against it, but the teachings should still remain respectful. Don't tolerate it, but don't condemn the person either. The sin is what's evil, not the man or woman.

Aye. Agreement to dissagree might be best here. I get a little rabid and its been a long day.

 

[Eros]

Having been in a position where had I not misscarried I'd have had to make the choice, I'm glad its available. Personally, I would like abortion to be exctinct. I would be over the moon if nobody ever had an abortion because there was no need. I doubt that will ever be the case, and under some circumstances it is very nessecary.

I understand.

 

[Kyalesyin]

I understand.

So many people see pro-choice people as being anti-pregnancy and all that, but I'd love to be anti-abortion. I just hate to think of how many lives are destroyed by either being forced to have an unwanted child or by having a parent that wasn't ready for a child and couldn't care for them.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

Oh I'm still a christian. Just that when I was a new christian I was very judgemental. It wasn't until a few years later that I began to see how I was being and how it contradicted to what Jesus taught.

ding ding ding... we have a winner

 

[Mr. Walters]

Excellent article. Sums of up some of the reasons for me turning my back on Christianity.

 

[Kritish]

I suppose you're refering to this post:


However, in the "standard works" that the Mormon church considers cannon; the King James Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine and Covenants, there is no direct statement that any particular existing American Indian tribes were desendants of Israel. The modern introduction to the Book of Mormon does state that the Lamanite tribe mentioned in the book were the "principal ancestors" of the American Indians, but there is no claim that they were the only ancestors and that there was no mingling of other racial stock. Now, that didn't stop the early church leaders from proclaiming it was so, and in more recent decades there's been a lot of backpedalling and focus on various Meso- and South American cultures being the supposed descendants of this race of displaced Israelites. Arguably that was all a big mistake unless one follows theories of "genetic swamping" of the original Hebrew DNA, but since Mormonism is a faith that believes in the ability of their prophets to hypothesize and even make assumptions that can later be clarified or even changed, that really isn't a big sticking point for faithful Mormons.

Please note that I'm not saying that these Mormon beliefs are true, or that they don't completely lack any logic or scientific evidence, but this Native American example isn't really the great key to proving the Mormon faith wrong as Wilhelm says. Believe me, there are plenty of well-educated Mormons out there that think that they have answers to any and all "empirical proofs" that their faith can be debunked. I'm not saying they're right, but it's far from as cut-and-dry as Mormon critics make it seem sometimes.

-And as far as the Mormon geneticist who got excommunicated from the church (assuming we're talking about the same guy- Thomas Murphy), Wilhelm neglected to mention that the geneticist came to his conclusions, then proceeded on a seminar tour where his main message was that since the Native Americans weren't genetically related to the Israelis, that meant that the Book of Mormon was a work of fiction. It was his right to say that of course, but it's also the right of the Mormon church to excommunicate a church member who goes on a paid tour proclaiming that his entire religion is based on BS.

The mormons have never let facts get in their way. It's based on a crack pot cult leader who thought Jesus visited him.

 

[The Lizard]

The mormons have never let facts get in their way. It's based on a crack pot cult leader who thought Jesus visited him.

That's arguably true, but that doesn't make Mormonism any more easy to objectively debunk than any other religion.

 

[kainedamo]

That's arguably true, but that doesn't make Mormonism any more easy to objectively debunk than any other religion.

There are holes too big to measure in Mormonism.

Joseph Smith said he discovered a book of golden plates. How come NO ONE else saw these plates??

during his annual visits to the hill where he said the book of Golden Plates was hidden, Smith said that Moroni allowed him to take the plates, but strictly forbade him from showing them to anyone without Moroni's authorization (Roberts 1902).

From Wiki.

C'mon!!!

Smith, and Smith alone, translated these "plates".

To translate what he said were the engravings on Golden Plates, Smith enlisted the assistance of Martin Harris, a wealthy Palmyra landowner (Smith 1853, p. 110; Howe 1834, p. 260). Harris paid for Smith to move to Harmony Township, Pennsylvania, where he could translate without locals trying to steal the plates (Smith 1853, p. 113; Tiffany 1859, p. 170). Beginning in December 1827, Smith began transcribing what he said were characters on the plates (Roberts 1902, p. 19).

I mean, seriously!!

How anyone who knows the history of this religion and still follows it is beyond me.

 

[The Lizard]

There are holes too big to measure in Mormonism.

Joseph Smith said he discovered a book of golden plates. How come NO ONE else saw these plates??

You haven't done your homework. Smith supposedly showed the plates to a small number of select friends. There are 11 witnesses who said they saw the plates, and their names are listed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Witnesses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Witnesses

And yes, that means that the South Park Mormon episode was wrong in saying that Smith was the only person who saw the gold plates.

Smith, and Smith alone, translated these "plates".

True, although he always worked with a transcriber who wrote down his "translations" as he spoke them. The beginning of the Book of Mormon itself says something to the effect of "If there are errors in this book, it is the fault of the hand of man, not God." This is one reason why Mormons don't get so bent out of shape about their prophets making mistakes - they believe that the will of God will be made clear despite these mistakes.

I mean, seriously!!

How anyone who knows the history of this religion and still follows it is beyond me.

How could anyone who knows that a man can't walk on the surface of a liquid sea believe in the New Testement? Hasn't science proven that water can't be turned into wine and that the dead don't get resurrected after three days?
My point is that faith makes no logical sense, and thus faith-based explanations that skirt the edge of logic work for the Mormons just as well as any other religion.

 

[mightiest_mortal]

It's based on a crack pot cult leader who thought Jesus visited him.

And maybe Jesus was just a crack pot cult leader who thought God visited him?
Maybe Mohammed was a crack pot cult leader who thought Gabriel visited him?
A lot of religions are based on accounts like this. It comes down to faith who you do or don't belive but you can't say that one religion is more plausible than the other because of them.

And yes, that means that the South Park Mormon episode was wrong in saying that Smith was the only person who saw the gold plates.

South Park was wrong about its information? who ever knew such a thing could happen I find too much of South Park preachy, one sided and uniformed now, which is a shame cos it used to be a great show.
Im curious if anyone knows how much of their Scientology information was correct?

 

[The Lizard]

South Park was wrong about its information? who ever knew such a thing could happen I find too much of South Park preachy, one sided and uniformed now, which is a shame cos it used to be a great show.
Im curious if anyone knows how much of their Scientology information was correct?

The part where the South Park "Trapped in the Closet" episode showed the story of the alien Xenu with the words "This is what Scientologists actually believe" superimposed over it was basically true. The cartoon images were made up, and Xenu isn't supposed to look like a freaky alien but just a human. Most scientologists aren't at the higher OT3 level were they are exposed to the Xenu story however, so most of them don't know about it.

The part where Stan took a "thetan test" that revealed that he was the reincarnation of L. Ron Hubbard was totally made up for that episode. There is no such thing as a "thetan level nine" test in Scientology.

So yeah, any aspiring experts on religion and sociology shouldn't use South Park as a primary source of info, even though it is pretty damn funny.