What was wrong with Ghost Rider (consistency-wise)

[DoomRulz]

I'll start us off.

Problems: A lot of the material within was taken from the Dan Ketch series, so much of what you see is from said series.

1) Ghost Rider is dressed liked the Ketch rider. He doesn't dress in Blaze's stunt outfit.

2) Ghost Rider was given the Penance Stare, which of course, Blaze never had; only Ketch did.

3) Blackheart was never Johnny Blaze's enemy. He only appeared in the Ketch storyline.

4) Blaze sold his soul to save Crash Simpson, not Barton Blaze.

5) Johnny went to the Devil, not the other way round.

6) Carter Slade was an actual Phantom; not a flaming skeleton. He never had any ties to Mephisto either.

7) Johnny Blaze rider was never known as the Spirit of Vengeance. Only Dan Ketch was.

8) Blaze never needed to physically touch his bike in order to make it flame up. He just pointed his fingers, and it would materialize out of nothing.

9) Carter Slade and the Caretaker are two totally different characters. They aren't the same person as portrayed in the movie.

Anything else?

 

[crazy sock]

I'll start us off.

Problems: A lot of the material within was taken from the Dan Ketch series, so much of what you see is from said series.

1) Ghost Rider is dressed liked the Ketch rider. He doesn't dress in Blaze's stunt outfit.

2) Ghost Rider was given the Penance Stare, which of course, Blaze never had; only Ketch did.

3) Blackheart was never Johnny Blaze's enemy. He only appeared in the Ketch storyline.

4) Blaze sold his soul to save Crash Simpson, not Barton Blaze.

5) Johnny went to the Devil, not the other way round.

6) Carter Slade was an actual Phantom; not a flaming skeleton. He never had any ties to Mephisto either.

7) Johnny Blaze rider was never known as the Spirit of Vengeance. Only Dan Ketch was.

8) Blaze never needed to physically touch his bike in order to make it flame up. He just pointed his fingers, and it would materialize out of nothing.

9) Carter Slade and the Caretaker are two totally different characters. They aren't the same person as portrayed in the movie.

Anything else?

well the reason why it had some of the ketch/kale rider stuff is cause its the best way to go when make a GR movie, to mix both riders is just easier. blaze had a better origin n whatnot whereas ketch/kale was just a cooler GR himself.for example the look, powers, personality whatever. to do a GR movie just based on blaze comics would be lame and to do a ketch/kale rider movie itd just be too dificult less they had like a long ass series of GR movies n i doubt they were willing to have a series of GR movies, surprised they even had one.

as for carter slade being a actual phantom, he wasnt. he was a vigilante in the west who dressed in all white with a cape n rode a white horse to make ppl think he was a phantom.he has no powers at all n no actual connection origin wise at all to the blaze or ketch or any spirit of vengeance type GRs. in an issue of a Blaze GR comic, blaze did go back in time or teamed up with a present day Phantom rider but thats about it. they only had that happen prob just to i dunno make money or thought itd be cool or whatever.

the only actual connection to carter slade and the spirits of vengeance is that he was originally called the Ghost Rider but western type comics died down n the creator of the blaze rider thought up of a villain for daredevil that was a flaming skulled biker n took the name ghost rider cause it was too cool a name to waste, n then whoever in charge or whatever thought that the blaze rider would be too cool to be a villain so made him into a hero instead.
when they brought back the slade rider comics they couyldnt use ghost rider anymore as his name n made it Night rider but turns out night rider is what they call KKK members who ride at nioght or some crap like that. so once again they changed the name n decided on Phantom Rider.
MSJ only had him in the movie cause he saw an oppurtunity to do so, but sadly its caused so much confusion among new fans of GR.

 

[DoomRulz]

well the reason why it had some of the ketch/kale rider stuff is cause its the best way to go when make a GR movie, to mix both riders is just easier. blaze had a better origin n whatnot whereas ketch/kale was just a cooler GR himself.for example the look, powers, personality whatever. to do a GR movie just based on blaze comics would be lame and to do a ketch/kale rider movie itd just be too dificult less they had like a long ass series of GR movies n i doubt they were willing to have a series of GR movies, surprised they even had one.

as for carter slade being a actual phantom, he wasnt. he was a vigilante in the west who dressed in all white with a cape n rode a white horse to make ppl think he was a phantom.he has no powers at all n no actual connection origin wise at all to the blaze or ketch or any spirit of vengeance type GRs. in an issue of a Blaze GR comic, blaze did go back in time or teamed up with a present day Phantom rider but thats about it. they only had that happen prob just to i dunno make money or thought itd be cool or whatever.

the only actual connection to carter slade and the spirits of vengeance is that he was originally called the Ghost Rider but western type comics died down n the creator of the blaze rider thought up of a villain for daredevil that was a flaming skulled biker n took the name ghost rider cause it was too cool a name to waste, n then whoever in charge or whatever thought that the blaze rider would be too cool to be a villain so made him into a hero instead.
when they brought back the slade rider comics they couyldnt use ghost rider anymore as his name n made it Night rider but turns out night rider is what they call KKK members who ride at nioght or some crap like that. so once again they changed the name n decided on Phantom Rider.
MSJ only had him in the movie cause he saw an oppurtunity to do so, but sadly its caused so much confusion among new fans of GR.

You're right about Carter Slade being a vigilante, I do apologize for my mistake.

You mention Ketch/Kale would bring a whole series of films...that's why I say all the more reason they should have used his character.

But I'm starting to think that perhaps the film isn't as inaccurate as I originally thought. I just finished reading Ghost Rider Vol. 5, and it's very much Johnny Blaze, but it looks like he's been merged with Noble Kale. This hasn't been confirmed yet, but if you take one look at him, you'll see what I mean.

 

[crazy sock]

yeah i know what you mean. the reason why the current GR comic series has blaze as the rider again with the look n powers n personality of the kale/ketch rider is cause of the movie. theyre just cashing in on the hype and it sucks that they are doing that. i mean they could at least do it right and actually tie it in to the 90s series, instead of being one big plot hole. i can understand that theyd want to start fresh with GR since the 90s series had alot of bumps. but that doesnt mean they should just completely disgard it. damn marvel,bastards dont realize that they can make good comic series AND make money at the same time.

 

[DoomRulz]

yeah i know what you mean. the reason why the current GR comic series has blaze as the rider again with the look n powers n personality of the kale/ketch rider is cause of the movie. theyre just cashing in on the hype and it sucks that they are doing that. i mean they could at least do it right and actually tie it in to the 90s series, instead of being one big plot hole. i can understand that theyd want to start fresh with GR since the 90s series had alot of bumps. but that doesnt mean they should just completely disgard it. damn marvel,bastards dont realize that they can make good comic series AND make money at the same time.

The 90s series didn't have bumps until they brought the character to hell...apparently that was such a bad move, any comic past GR #50 I think, is unavailable anywhere But ya, I agree that Marvel should not disregard it on account of poor sales towards the end.

I disagree with Marvel merging Blaze with Kale on account of the movie. The comic was published in July of 2006, a long time before the movie.

You mentioned a tie-in in the first movie...what would you have suggested?

 

[crazy sock]

by the tie-in i meant in the current GR series.

and as for the comic being published before the movie. the movie was made before the comic, the movie was originally supposed to come out in 06 but got pushed back to 07 cause they didnt want to have it be out the same year as X3 and Superman Returns.

 

[NDX]

yeah i know what you mean. the reason why the current GR comic series has blaze as the rider again with the look n powers n personality of the kale/ketch rider is cause of the movie. theyre just cashing in on the hype and it sucks that they are doing that. i mean they could at least do it right and actually tie it in to the 90s series, instead of being one big plot hole. i can understand that theyd want to start fresh with GR since the 90s series had alot of bumps. but that doesnt mean they should just completely disgard it. damn marvel,bastards dont realize that they can make good comic series AND make money at the same time.

I recall you saying you don't even read the series, so I have no idea why you're complaining about the development of the story. Either way, you really expect them to tie all the 5 series together is the first 10 issues of the comic? They're just re-establishing Blaze as a character into the Marvel universe. That's going to take some time. In the 1990s series, it took 14 issues before a connection to the 1970s series. Now, with stories wrote in arcs and not as standalones, that's going to take even longer.

Ketch/Kale hasn't been completely ignored. If you read issue 4 in one of the very first few panels of the issue Blaze says Ketch's name and referencing the past when the in control Ghost Rider mentality uses the Penance Stare on Dr. Strange.

Now, if you recall, Blaze was merged with the SOV character in the Hammer Lane series. That was never explained, and it should have been. That's where the real mistake comes in. The reason the character looks like the 1990s Rider and not the 2001 Rider is because that's the way Jarv is drawing it (so says Daniel Way).

The series hasn't been out a year yet. Anyone who expects the comic to tie in all 5 series and do it coherently in less than 2 or even 3 years is completely out of their mind. Ghost Rider is a B-Character at best. Convoluting this comic with all the crap from the previous eras so early on would kill it before it even established a modern fanbase.

 

[crazy sock]

im complaining cause i want to be able to read a GR series again and have it make sense. been disappointed before with two let downs, hammer lane and road to damnation.
i dont see how theyd be able to tie in the past series or least do a good job of it . i mean cmon, first of all the 90s series was canceled like 9 years ago n the last issue was released back in Feb. which was obviously only because of the movie coming out. if it werent for the movie that issue never would have gotten printed. the beginning of the current series seems alot like road to damnation with blaze being the rider and trapped in hell. i dont know if whoever in charge wanted it to be tied into the RTD series or they just took that idea but either way it blows.
even if they do manage to tie it all in to the 90s series its not going to make sense. have a 9 year gap and from what happened in the last issue of the 90s series blaze wasnt the rider, he wasnt trapped in hell, he got his wife back, kale was the rider and was king of hell and seperated from ketch or any other host. if the current series is going to tie in, theyre gunnah have to think really hard. wheres mephisto, blackheart, caretaker, etc.? face it, theyre trying to start over, which i dont blame em rele but it sucks cause that means forgetting alot of the past series. both of the 90s series and even the original blaze series.

 

[NDX]

It's 10 issues in. You can't combine every convoluted and idiotic storyline of the last 30 years in such a short time, nor should they even try. Plus some of them should be retconned out of existance for the sake of having a good comic. Dumping all the **** from the first 30 years onto a new reader right away is just asking for this comic to get cancelled before it reaches issue 15.

We know the only reason issue 94 was released because of the movie. So what. We finally got our closure. That's all that matters. We finally got to read how the series ended after ending it on a cliffhanger. It finally closed all the doors.

Blaze's wife went missing from the Marvel Universe again before the Hammer Lane series. Did she run away? Die? Did they find their kids? Who knows. I do know Way said he'd tackle that problem in the future. Blaze was dating someone else, was possessed with the Kale Ghost Rider again and went AWOL. In the current series, he is still possessed by the Kale Ghost Rider (although there is no mention of Kale, thankfully, it's just the Ghost Rider). In a fight with Satan, the Rider's personality took over and skewered Satan with a flaming cross. Before this Satan even made a wiseass remark that the other personality was not as fun as Johnny was.

Issues 6 and 7 was a flashback on how he died between Hammer Lane and Road to Damnation. He was tricked into wanting revenge, in some cases considered a sin, and was killed during it by a man who was tricked by Satan. This was done because Johnny could only go to hell if he was killed while committing a mortal sin (if I recall correctly). That's how he died and ended up in hell. Issue 1 follows after Road to Damnation, that's why they have the race to the gates. Then again, Ennis didn't give a **** about the character, he only thought that he looked cool, the race I always thought was pointless. Could have come up with better torment.

Satan was retconned into Mephisto in the 70s to coincide with the then tightening comic code authority, from what I understand. Now it can easily be said the Johnny sold his soul to Satan and Mephisto took it upon himself to torture him and Zarathos because of his hatred for the soul devouring demon. It looks to have been retconned back to being Satan in order to coincide with the earlier works of the 1970s series.

The new series acknowledges the in portion to continuity designed in 1990s series. Blaze has 2 siblings, a brother and sister, and it was explained that after Barton Blaze died in a fiery crash his mother abandoned him at the Quentin Carnival. Blaze was married with 2 kids and was the owner of the Quentin Carnival. This has all been acknowledged in the newest series.

Last I recall, Blackheart is dead and hasn't been seen since issue 93. Caretaker and the Blood seemed to have been retconned out of the comic by Ivan Valez, Jr. Blame him. Most of the 90s major villains are dead. Blame Valez, Jr. as well for Blaze's kids still being missing by the end if the 90s series. Either he didn't read any other comics under the Midnight Sons group or just didn't give a ****.

Slowly but surely this series will get around to retconning the past debacles and creating a more cohesive continuity. They're going to slowly fill in the facts of the past in order to make it flow.

 

[DoomRulz]

Gentleman, I appreciate the enthusiasm, but if we could stay on topic please. We're debating what wrong with the MOVIE, not the comic.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^Well, obviously the fact that JB can only turn into GR at night in the movie is different from the comics, as in the comics GR was in daylight all the time.

Not sure if i like this change or not yet though, i'll have to see the movie again.

 

[NDX]

During the 70s series, for the first few years of it Blaze transformed into the Ghost Rider every time night fell and only at night.

 

[DoomRulz]

During the 70s series, for the first few years of it Blaze transformed into the Ghost Rider every time night fell and only at night.

Absolutely right. Not to mention he was also in better of control of the demon within him.

He didn't develop the ability to change into GR at will until some time later.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

During the 70s series, for the first few years of it Blaze transformed into the Ghost Rider every time night fell and only at night.

Right i didnt know that, i thought he could always transform during the day, i know when i have read the Blaze or Ketch versions, i have seen them in daylight transformed.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Absolutely right. Not to mention he was also in better of control of the demon within him.

He didn't develop the ability to change into GR at will until some time later.

This was one of the aspects of the movie that dissapointed me, i felt JB got control of GR far too easily and quickly.

 

[NDX]

The was a big timeline issue with the film with him developing his powers. Something that should have at least take weeks took what seemed like a weekend.

 

[Mr Nick]

This was one of the aspects of the movie that dissapointed me, i felt JB got control of GR far too easily and quickly.

Agreed.

 

[DoomRulz]

This was one of the aspects of the movie that dissapointed me, i felt JB got control of GR far too easily and quickly.

That angle would've worked great when the police went after him. Like, on the rooftop of the building when the helicopter confronted him. That was GR acting violently like you'd expect.

I fully expected him to come crashing to his knees right after he flung it, essentially showing him in pain with JB struggling to control the demon's violent tendencies you know? Alas, that was not to be. What's even worse is that MSJ actually said that scene was supposed to showcase JB's struggle with GR.

 

[Mr Nick]

I fully expected him to come crashing to his knees right after he flung it, essentially showing him in pain with JB struggling to control the demon's violent tendencies you know? Alas, that was not to be. What's even worse is that MSJ actually said that scene was supposed to showcase JB's struggle with GR.

Really? I didn't know that. But who knows what we'll see in the extended cut.

 

[Mr. Socko]

None of those are film consistencies, and that's what this is. A film.

This is not a god damn comic book, it is an adaptation put on film. You don't see me whining every waking moment because Tom Bombadil ain't in LOTR. Things will always be changed in adaptations. Get over it. This is about as bad as spidey fanboys still complaing over organic web.

This movie doesn't have a prequel nor a sequel, so those "consistencies" on your list are non-existent as this movie is not a sequel to a comic book.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

The was a big timeline issue with the film with him developing his powers. Something that should have at least take weeks took what seemed like a weekend.

Precisely

That angle would've worked great when the police went after him. Like, on the rooftop of the building when the helicopter confronted him. That was GR acting violently like you'd expect.

I fully expected him to come crashing to his knees right after he flung it, essentially showing him in pain with JB struggling to control the demon's violent tendencies you know? Alas, that was not to be. What's even worse is that MSJ actually said that scene was supposed to showcase JB's struggle with GR.

Didnt know that, are you sure? Anyway as someone else said, we might see more in an extended cut.

 

[DoomRulz]

Ya, I read it online. I honestly don't remember where, but if I find it, I'll link you.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Cool, we might see more in the Extended Edition, who knows?

 

[stovetop25]

I'm definitely looking forward to seeing the extended version.

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http://www.unlockmotorolas.com

 

[DoomRulz]

I just picked up on something else after I bought the DVD...the police captain was Captaick Jack Dolan. He was stolen from the DK series; he's Stacy's father remember?

All the more reason to reboot with a DK movie...