Favorite Ghost Rider?

[NDX]

Actually, I believe Biggun was refering to GR throwing fireballs/fire, which is a little different than shooting fire from his hands. It may end up looking similar, but technically 2 different things

If I'm wrong, I blame not sleeping for 3 days.

 

[FlameHead]

There's a lot of stuff I'd like to touch on w/ this thread. A lot has been brought up (though, I believe most of it has been chatted about before... which is bound to happen to some of us who have been chattin' about GR here for years) dealin' the the ever popular debate of Blaze vs Ketch.

Everyone here knows that I'm a fan of Dan, far more than Blaze... though I do love his 90's revival a whole lot. My reasons for liking Dan are not that deep really. It's not about a better story or a better character I believe; it's just what I discovered first. In addition, what I love most about Ghost Rider (which is the history of Ghost Riders) was developed in the 90's series. Of course, that has nothing to do with Dan really...

Some are against the joining of characters for the flick. I'm not. I personally believe it's the only way that it could have been done. The look of Ghost Rider from the 90's put into the story of the 70's. Great stuff. Mix up the baddies, take out Zarathos (hopefully) and we got a great thing happening.

Speakin' of the 90's look. I, like BG, hope they have a jumpsuit shot of some sort throughout. Paying homage to it would be easily done and quite a nice thing to do for the fans.

As for hellfire blasts. I DO NOT want to see that happen. Repeat; DO NOT. Nothing looks as bad (IMO) as bursts of energy, wind, snow, fire from hands. I really hate it. With Ghost Rider, it would probably look a little better considering his hands and body are already on fire but... I'm still not sure it would be convincing.

Fireballs on the other hand. Now that's the ****. He generates the ball in his hand and flings it. Much better looking and much cooler... I think.

All in all, I'm very happy to see some elements of Dans arc in the movie. There was a lengthy time that I thought nothing would be taken from the 90's. That, to me, would have been a crime.


By the way, there is a really good Spirit of Vengeance vs Zarathos thread here if you're interested: http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195287

Similar topic... yet different.

 

[Riding Ghost]

take out Zarathos (hopefully)

Those words are SACRILEGE
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...............imho

 

[FlameHead]

The problem I have with Zarathos (in the movie. I have other problems with him in the comic world) is that it adds an entirely different plotline to the flick that is just not needed. To develop the Zarathos story would be too much. Keep it simple, keep it Ghost Rider, not another demon.

 

[thakey]

^^^^i agree flamehead it would take 2 movies just to explain john blaze deal with mephisto(or whoever they use), john blaze as the ghost rider, then gr actually being zarathos and tryin to explain who and why zarathos is. sorry if it doesnt make sense im sleepy and holdin my 6 month old baby

 

[Toxin66]

but the Zarathos/ Mr Hyde persona would have been kindof interesting to see...maybe for the sequel he could battle his inner demon.

 

[FlameHead]

It's going to be a battle with his inner demon regardless or who or what the inner demon actually is.

 

[Riding Ghost]

The origin of Ghost Rider as Zarathos is more confusing and harder to explain than trying to explain that a flaming skeleton is NOT a demon

Or Zarathos (simply a demon by name) is more confusing than Noble Kale, Medallion and blood and all that
You must be joking

My reasons for liking Dan are not that deep really. It's not about a better story or a better character I believe; it's just what I discovered first. In addition, what I love most about Ghost Rider (which is the history of Ghost Riders) was developed in the 90's series. Of course, that has nothing to do with Dan really...

Don't forget, you also prefer, as you put it, "the honor in vengeance" of the 90's version. Which I believe is part of the reason you don't like Zarathos, since he is evil and anything honorable about him comes from Blaze. To me there is something downright cheesy about a flaming skeleton having attributes of a chivalrous knight attributed to him personally, but maybe thats just me. Of course the main reason is the reason you stated, which is its the first you saw. Which is not a good basis for choosing what(of anything on any issue) is truly the best. Though it is understandable.

And just as importantly......300 posts WOOHOOO......um sorry, got caught up in the moment

 

[FlameHead]

Maybe I should have phased that better; The reason why I came to love all the things I love about Ghost Rider came from Dan Ketch's run, which happens to be the first I fell for. I knew heck of a lot about Dan and his life before I really know who Blaze was. Familiarity breeds obsession.

It's sorta like my love of the LA Kings. I started liking them because of Wayne Gretzky going there but stuck with them after he was traded... and still am to this day a Kings fan.

As for the Medallion and Blood and all that; it's not needed. What I want, more than just having an evil demon possession Blaze, is the demon inside be part of a legacy eons old. Not just a trick pulled by the devil but part of a trick that's has been being played forever.

Zarathos can be bested and, has been. The Spirit of Vengeance is forever.

 

[Riding Ghost]

Maybe I should have phased that better; The reason why I came to love all the things I love about Ghost Rider came from Dan Ketch's run, which happens to be the first I fell for. I knew heck of a lot about Dan and his life before I really know who Blaze was. Familiarity breeds obsession.

It's sorta like my love of the LA Kings. I started liking them because of Wayne Gretzky going there but stuck with them after he was traded... and still am to this day a Kings fan.

I wish You had read Blazes first.

What I want, more than just having an evil demon possession Blaze, is the demon inside be part of a legacy eons old. Not just a trick pulled by the devil but part of a trick that's has been being played forever.

That is exactly what Zarathos is. A demon with a long ass history going back to before Mephisto tricked him and that is his history before any of the shananagins of the 90's series.

Zarathos can be bested and, has been. The Spirit of Vengeance is forever.

That was cold.......but understandable in the context of our discussion.

However, it should be noted that Zarathos was somewhat on par with Mephisto and I believe when he was "bested" originally by the sov and parts of his power placed into the medallion it was by the spirit(s) of vengeance, plural. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that. Apparently Zarathos power is so immense that part of it could be placed in a medallion aannnndd in the statue that the tribe revived him from. And Crossroads? ..........sophistry.

 

[Uncanny Orb]

Well this is what I think about the whole thing. The Ketch GR is not a demon as he was created out of a deal by a representative of heaven and Mephisto to be a judge and jury of mankind. So really any deal that Blaze made with mephisto he could not be part of. Where Zarathos being basically Mephistos property can.
So really the whole theory of there can only be one is wrong. Blaze should be possessed by Zarathos in the movie, as losing ones self is only slightly better than losing ones soul, thats the deal, and IMHO Blaze should have absolutly no control over him but only be a host. When the 90's comic started GR seemed more vicious, he would drag people off behind his bike and do whatever off panel, and later he became so predictable and other than the Scarecrow incident he was a little soft on people, the penance stare became one of those things that happened all the time and for me got old fast. I think that in the movie aswell as in the comic GR should be allowed to waste some people, should he kill some guy who just robbed 7-11? No, but should he kill some guy who just robbed a 7-11 and shot the teller and 3 other people? Absolutly! From what I know about the movie is GR is in control of himself at least that is what I've gathered from bit's that MSJ has let out, if GR is Zarathos why would he care if Blackheart was on earth? Unless he had a hand in his undoing, or Mephisto has made a deal with him to be freed, otherwise what is his reasoning, he's a demon. But it is also known that this GR (in the movie) has a history "It's said that the Rider is the Devils bounty hunter" does that mean that each GR is different or just the host is? So the question that I ask is, is it more likely that Mephisto has control of a Demon to toy with or for that matter is willing to be bonded to Blaze, or a good soul that is not part of the comic contnuity and is being forced to become part of Blaze and do these things?
Anyway I've said nothing that I meant to say and this sort of irrelavent so BLAH!

 

[FlameHead]

That is exactly what Zarathos is. A demon with a long ass history going back to before Mephisto tricked him and that is his history before any of the shananagins of the 90's series.

Yeah, I understand that Zarathos the demon has been around forever and the game between he and Meph has been played just as long. It's not the length of time that the demon or mythos existed that gets me. It's what Ghost Rider, the Spirit of Vengeance, means to the course of history. I believe him to be vital in cleansing the Marvel Universe and always has been.

See, the thing is, I much rather have an antihero stuck within Blaze than a bad demon. That way, the story is just as much about the Ghost Rider character as it is about Blaze and his stuggle with a bad demon inside him. Afterall, it is Ghost Rider that I'm going to this movie for. I want his character to be the hero, not just Blaze.

 

[FlameHead]

Well this is what I think about the whole thing. The Ketch GR is not a demon as he was created out of a deal by a representative of heaven and Mephisto to be a judge and jury of mankind. So really any deal that Blaze made with mephisto he could not be part of. Where Zarathos being basically Mephistos property can.
So really the whole theory of there can only be one is wrong. Blaze should be possessed by Zarathos in the movie, as losing ones self is only slightly better than losing ones soul, thats the deal, and IMHO Blaze should have absolutly no control over him but only be a host. When the 90's comic started GR seemed more vicious, he would drag people off behind his bike and do whatever off panel, and later he became so predictable and other than the Scarecrow incident he was a little soft on people, the penance stare became one of those things that happened all the time and for me got old fast. I think that in the movie aswell as in the comic GR should be allowed to waste some people, should he kill some guy who just robbed 7-11? No, but should he kill some guy who just robbed a 7-11 and shot the teller and 3 other people? Absolutly! From what I know about the movie is GR is in control of himself at least that is what I've gathered from bit's that MSJ has let out, if GR is Zarathos why would he care if Blackheart was on earth? Unless he had a hand in his undoing, or Mephisto has made a deal with him to be freed, otherwise what is his reasoning, he's a demon. But it is also known that this GR (in the movie) has a history "It's said that the Rider is the Devils bounty hunter" does that mean that each GR is different or just the host is? So the question that I ask is, is it more likely that Mephisto has control of a Demon to toy with or for that matter is willing to be bonded to Blaze, or a good soul that is not part of the comic contnuity and is being forced to become part of Blaze and do these things?
Anyway I've said nothing that I meant to say and this sort of irrelavent so BLAH!

In the movie, and pretty much the same in the Comic universe, Ghost Rider is a bounty hunter from hell... not just a demon. In fact, I'm pretty sure he's not even a demon. He just looks like one. He's a spirit, an entitiy that has been forever alive. Each Ghost Rider is not different because it's the same spirit that lives within the host; The Spirit of Vengeance.

Having said that, the host is vitol in shaping the spirit as well. Dan's sensibilities in the 2nd run was what led Noble to truly find himself and they both realize that fighting each other was useless and the only way to find truth harmony with themselves as to trust each other and bond. That is when Ghost Rider was at his most powerful, and Dan too.

As for killing, no. Personally, I do not want to see any killing of humans. Not in the movie and not in the comics. Death is easy. Most bad guys would rather die than live the rest of thier lives in unbearable pain. To kill is to let off easy.

 

[Riding Ghost]

Well this is what I think about the whole thing. The Ketch GR is not a demon as he was created out of a deal by a representative of heaven and Mephisto to be a judge and jury of mankind.!

Personally, I was hoping that Spiderman#93, when GR said it was all Mephistos lies, that they were going to do away with the sov and say it in fact was zarathos. Of course that didn't happen though. I also thought that FF4:Before the storms kinda did say that it was really Zarathos, with the "Z" medallion on the bike and all.....I'm still not sure what the hell that was all about.

So really any deal that Blaze made with mephisto he could not be part of. Where Zarathos being basically Mephistos property can.
So really the whole theory of there can only be one is wrong.

Well put, makes sense

I think that in the movie aswell as in the comic GR should be allowed to waste some people, should he kill some guy who just robbed 7-11? No, but should he kill some guy who just robbed a 7-11 and shot the teller and 3 other people? Absolutly!

I agree whole heartedly, though thats not very pc of either of us

But it is also known that this GR (in the movie) has a history "It's said that the Rider is the Devils bounty hunter" does that mean that each GR is different or just the host is? So the question that I ask is, is it more likely that Mephisto has control of a Demon to toy with or for that matter is willing to be bonded to Blaze, or a good soul that is not part of the comic contnuity and is being forced to become part of Blaze and do these things?

Good question.
I hope it is just different host, but of course if there is a scene in the movie like the recently released artwork were there is GR on horse and one on bike at the same time.....then the answer to that ? becomes obvious

 

[Riding Ghost]

Yeah, I understand that Zarathos the demon has been around forever and the game between he and Meph has been played just as long. It's not the length of time that the demon or mythos existed that gets me. It's what Ghost Rider, the Spirit of Vengeance, means to the course of history. I believe him to be vital in cleansing the Marvel Universe and always has been.

Blaze and Zarathos can do that job, just as well and even more interestingly than sov. Only difference is sov is happy to do it whereas with B/Z, Zarathos is compelled by Blaze and does it begrudgingly. job still done.

See, the thing is, I much rather have an antihero stuck within Blaze than a bad demon. That way, the story is just as much about the Ghost Rider character as it is about Blaze and his stuggle with a bad demon inside him. Afterall, it is Ghost Rider that I'm going to this movie for. I want his character to be the hero, not just Blaze.

I hear you, but for me I think it's ridiculous for a flaming skeleton to be anything but a demon, therefore I would not look to a demon as a hero, he would have to be simply badass.

Some of this is kinda moot though, at least as far as "Marvel continuity"(if there really is such a thing anymore) is concerned. They Have (for the moment) established sov AND zarathos as current, undisputed fact. So there are at least 2 GR
We are currently going to read an ongoing of Blaze/Zarathos. And I think MSJ elluded to, if not outright confirmed Zarathos as the demon for the movie. At least if I understand recent info We've all been sifting through correctly.

 

[Riding Ghost]

With Ghost Rider, it would probably look a little better considering his hands and body are already on fire but...

Oh, and I'm glad you acknowledged, that although you despise powers from hands thing, that it at least makes more sense for GR to do it than some human looking being.

 

[FlameHead]

Blaze and Zarathos can do that job, just as well and even more interestingly than sov. Only difference is sov is happy to do it whereas with B/Z, Zarathos is compelled by Blaze and does it begrudgingly. job still done.



I hear you, but for me I think it's ridiculous for a flaming skeleton to be anything but a demon, therefore I would not look to a demon as a hero, he would have to be simply badass.

Some of this is kinda moot though, at least as far as "Marvel continuity"(if there really is such a thing anymore) is concerned. They Have (for the moment) established sov AND zarathos as current, undisputed fact. So there are at least 2 GR
We are currently going to read an ongoing of Blaze/Zarathos. And I think MSJ elluded to, if not outright confirmed Zarathos as the demon for the movie. At least if I understand recent info We've all been sifting through correctly.

You see, I consider the flaming skeleton a mask of sorts... or better yet, just an image. An image that makes you want to **** your pants. It's like a flaming skeleton is the only thing that can truly represent what a spirit of vengeance is. It's a scary thing to face, that spirit... so, why not make him look scarey.

There are not 2 Ghost Riders. There is one Ghost Rider and a demon who happens to look like Ghost Rider. There has been many Ghost Riders, but, from what we know now, only one at a time... though, one can argue Vengeance. He was a spirit of such but, still just a demon that sorta looks like Ghost Rider... medallion or not. Oh, the medallion...

You're right about MSJ sayin that it's Zarathos but, did he mean it was his character by actions or by name exactly? I mean, will Ghost Rider actually have a name besides Ghost Rider?... excluding what random people call him of course; ie, The Good Samaritan.

 

[Riding Ghost]

You see, I consider the flaming skeleton a mask of sorts... or better yet, just an image. An image that makes you want to **** your pants. It's like a flaming skeleton is the only thing that can truly represent what a spirit of vengeance is. It's a scary thing to face, that spirit... so, why not make him look scarey.

So, he should look scary....just because he should, not because he's a demon. Apparently marvel agrees with you, but for me, that does not suspend my disbelief. Ok, so Zarathos is a demon(and looks accordingly) and the Spirit of Vengeance is just a spirit, but NOT a demon, just looks like one If there are two ultimate forces vying for control of all(evil<hell> and good<heaven>) then why would the forces of good take part in the creation of something that looks like the GR?

There are not 2 Ghost Riders. There is one Ghost Rider and a demon who happens to look like Ghost Rider. There has been many Ghost Riders, but, from what we know now, only one at a time... though, one can argue Vengeance. He was a spirit of such but, still just a demon that sorta looks like Ghost Rider... medallion or not. Oh, the medallion...

You are right, of course. That is what marvel has established. My posts are obviously due to the fact I'm not happy about it. I understand that ketch was your first GR exposed to and as such him and all to do with him are the way you feel it should be, but try to understand my side. For 15 years I was reading GR and loved it, then a decade later they come back and say no that was all wrong....and what I was reading wasn't even GR, surely you understand I'm not too happy about that. I understand that my happy or unhappyness about it doesn't change anything and really doesn't matter......but still

... excluding what random people call him of course; ie, The Good Samaritan.

That is a good point you bring up. The title "Ghost Rider", I know for vol1 and I believe from vol2 as well, had, I believe, always originated from what the people you noted above call him. So the "Good Samaritan" see a flaming skeleton on a motorcycle and say "its the Ghost Rider". Its one of those funny comic book things that when Mephisto or Blackheart or whathaveyou encounter GR they call him GR instead of using his real name Zarathos........or Noble, whichever the case may be in any given circumstance. I mean they should know who he is and address him by his real name.....one would think.

 

[FlameHead]

So, he should look scary....just because he should, not because he's a demon. Apparently marvel agrees with you, but for me, that does not suspend my disbelief. Ok, so Zarathos is a demon(and looks accordingly) and the Spirit of Vengeance is just a spirit, but NOT a demon, just looks like one If there are two ultimate forces vying for control of all(evil<hell> and good<heaven>) then why would the forces of good take part in the creation of something that looks like the GR?

I don't think the two forces are vying for control of all. They are ensuring tha their playground (earth) is running the way it should and cleansed when need be. That's what Ghost Rider is for. He's a bountry hunter come to earth to either bring demons back to hell or set those who are on their way to hell strait... or better year, let them suffer in pain for the rest of thie living days until being sent to hell where they suffer even more.

Also, what is a demon supposed to look like? I didn't realize there was a uniform way that demons look...

You are right, of course. That is what marvel has established. My posts are obviously due to the fact I'm not happy about it. I understand that ketch was your first GR exposed to and as such him and all to do with him are the way you feel it should be, but try to understand my side. For 15 years I was reading GR and loved it, then a decade later they come back and say no that was all wrong....and what I was reading wasn't even GR, surely you understand I'm not too happy about that. I understand that my happy or unhappyness about it doesn't change anything and really doesn't matter......but still

RG, I respect totally that you enjoy Blaze. I respect everyone's opninion on pretty much everything. Just because I'm debating Dan and my love for the 2nd GR doesn't mean I'm putting your beliefs down. We're just chatting.

That is a good point you bring up. The title "Ghost Rider", I know for vol1 and I believe from vol2 as well, had, I believe, always originated from what the people you noted above call him. So the "Good Samaritan" see a flaming skeleton on a motorcycle and say "its the Ghost Rider". Its one of those funny comic book things that when Mephisto or Blackheart or whathaveyou encounter GR they call him GR instead of using his real name Zarathos........or Noble, whichever the case may be in any given circumstance. I mean they should know who he is and address him by his real name.....one would think.

Mephisto should definatly know who he is... if of course they develop at all that Ghost Rider has a personality and his own life. This is one of my biggest concerns right now; not establishing Blaze and Ghost Rider as two different entities.

 

[Reaper]

Fascinating discussion Deep stuff
If The REAPER may interject for a moment

Its one of those funny comic book things that when Mephisto or Blackheart or whathaveyou encounter GR they call him GR instead of using his real name Zarathos........or Noble, whichever the case may be in any given circumstance. I mean they should know who he is and address him by his real name.....one would think.

The answer could be that for most of the times we've seen them interact, GR has had that imposed amnesia. Neither GR had sufficient memories of themselves to know who they were 'till the end. So they didn't want to give GR any clues or answers by reminding either GR of their real name.

RG, I respect totally that you enjoy Blaze. I respect everyone's opninion on pretty much everything. Just because I'm debating Dan and my love for the 2nd GR doesn't mean I'm putting your beliefs down. We're just chatting.

See thats the problem we have with a situation like this with GR or any comic. Which is why many boards filled with flamethreads. The writers and changing of writers over time they inevitably do something stupid and piss some people off. Flamehead knows if everybody agreed with him then we would have Ketch in the movie and the new comic will be his dream and same with RidngGhost the other way. I'm not saying this is a flamethread. Its not. I'm just saying situations like this start it. Its the result of incompetence on the part of comic creators.

I must say that I do tend to agree that major mistakes have been made during the creative process of this character and many opportunities to correct them have been ignored. Maybe the new series will help but I doubt it.
I qualify my position as being a Blaze reader first myself

 

[Riding Ghost]

I don't think the two forces are vying for control of all. They are ensuring tha their playground (earth) is running the way it should and cleansed when need be. That's what Ghost Rider is for. He's a bountry hunter come to earth to either bring demons back to hell or set those who are on their way to hell strait... or better year, let them suffer in pain for the rest of thie living days until being sent to hell where they suffer even more.

Interesting to use the word playground...it does sorta seem like that, tho I suspect they do have an ultimate goal other than their amusement.

Also, what is a demon supposed to look like? I didn't realize there was a uniform way that demons look....

No not uniform, but if there ever was an image that conjured thoughts of a demon, GR's image would be right up there.

RG, I respect totally that you enjoy Blaze. I respect everyone's opninion on pretty much everything. Just because I'm debating Dan and my love for the 2nd GR doesn't mean I'm putting your beliefs down. We're just chatting.

Your right and I can appreciate that. I don't mean to come off so political about it, its just sometimes the fanboy geek in me takes over

Mephisto should definatly know who he is... if of course they develop at all that Ghost Rider has a personality and his own life. This is one of my biggest concerns right now; not establishing Blaze and Ghost Rider as two different entities.

Hmmm, that never really occured to me. I just figured that Ennis GR was like the early Blaze where Blaze was in complete control.
But what else could they say the deal is? The only thing I can think of is that when Blaze was first "possessed" he thought that GR might be his evil side, not a seperate entity. That would be.......... odd, but your right, I wouldn't put anything past them.

 

[Riding Ghost]

If The REAPER may interject for a moment

AALLLRIGGHHTTYYYY then

The answer could be that for most of the times we've seen them interact, GR has had that imposed amnesia. Neither GR had sufficient memories of themselves to know who they were 'till the end. So they didn't want to give GR any clues or answers by reminding either GR of their real name.

Good point, I didn't consider that

 

[FlameHead]

See thats the problem we have with a situation like this with GR or any comic. Which is why many boards filled with flamethreads. The writers and changing of writers over time they inevitably do something stupid and piss some people off. Flamehead knows if everybody agreed with him then we would have Ketch in the movie and the new comic will be his dream and same with RidngGhost the other way. I'm not saying this is a flamethread. Its not. I'm just saying situations like this start it. Its the result of incompetence on the part of comic creators.

I must say that I do tend to agree that major mistakes have been made during the creative process of this character and many opportunities to correct them have been ignored. Maybe the new series will help but I doubt it.
I qualify my position as being a Blaze reader first myself

Flamethreads come from people who have an inabilty to debate and only argue... or they're just troublemakers.

For the record, it's not Dan I want in the movie, it's Noble or more of his personality anyway. Also, I'm thrilled that there will be a mix of both in the flick. Best of both worlds sorta thing.

As for the new comic, I'm very optomistic. The articles I've read so far have given me a lot of hope and I think Way will do a great job on the character. Of course, only time will tell.

 

[FlameHead]

Hmmm, that never really occured to me. I just figured that Ennis GR was like the early Blaze where Blaze was in complete control.
But what else could they say the deal is? The only thing I can think of is that when Blaze was first "possessed" he thought that GR might be his evil side, not a seperate entity. That would be.......... odd, but your right, I wouldn't put anything past them.

What I got from the new Ennis story (and this is just my interpretation) was that Blaze at some point died and is now in Hell. In Hell, he is forced to always and forever be the one thing he hates most; Ghost Rider. So, that would mean it's Blaze's conscience and soul in a Ghost Rider Vessel.

 

[FlameHead]

Poll bump for newbies both here and on their way...