Wheldon on Wonder Woman 11/22/06

[Dr. Fate]

Don't forget Ursa.

Who could ever forget Ursa?

 

[GL1]

Name one original villain that appeared in a comic movie, that didn't completely suck.

How do we know that an original villain would be better, consider that most original villains in comic book movies have sucked (Ross Weber and Nuclear Man, anyone). Besides WW comic rogues don't have to be exactly like they are in the comics, they could revamped to fit better in a movie.

To be fair, the vast majority of comic book movie villains have been pretty sorry. It's a result of just what were talking about, trying to cram a villain into an origin story and it simply doesn't fit thematically. PINO, Penguin in Name Only from Batman Returns. Yes, he had penguin's name, but he had absolutely nothing to do with comics at all.

Let's see... I'm assuming by "didn't completely suck" you actually mean "was very good" in which case, I can't think of ANY comic book movie villains that were awesome. Maybe Magneto... certainly not Dr. Doom, Doc Ock or Ra's Al Ghoul. They were okay, but no one on that Hannibal-Darth Vader-Agent Smith level... not even close.

 

[BrianWilly]

That's the logical flaw, isn't it? Everyone wants comic book villains on the silver screen, as well they should. The thing is, though, that no one considers that a lot of comic book villains on the screen have sucked ass.

The Absorbing Man in the Hulk was just a big ol' mess.

Mr. Freeze? Poison Ivy? Two-Face?

All of it merely depends on the quality of the movie. If a movie is good, the villains are likely to be good. If a movie is bad, the villains are likely to be bad.

 

[SurfDUI]

O.K. here's a thought-build up the villian in a different kind of origin story. Studios worry so much about the non-comic fans, and screw them for the most part, there smartter than the studios give the public.
So Diana makes a cameo and ala Vader we get a villian that gets more screen time that the hero. This may not lend itself to a major character that's been around for 50 years, but if we want a story that sticks around this may work.

 

[Fused]

I'm not jumping to any conclusions, but can someone name one successful female villian/antagonist in a comic book/action adventure movie?

Also. Just about every 007 movie in the past 50 years had a successful and often badass female antagonist.

 

[ClarkLuther55]

And then, of course, Ares. Let's forgo the hypocricy and futility of *fighting* the God of War... let's just skip to the fact that making a statement against war at this point in history overshadows anything you would be trying to say or tell about Wondy, you're stuck with a political story which is NOT what Wonder Woman should be.

I disagree. It wouldn't be seen as hypocrital to fight the God of War, since war is commonly seen as justifiable when the enemy is "evil" or is threatening you. The solution to the Nazis was military action, and no one has a problem with that.

Fighting Ares doesn't have to be political at all. Just have him trying to stir up a conflict between a couple fictional countries, NOT in the Middle East. They could be stand-ins for some place like Yugoslavia (like Kasnia is in the DCAU), which is hardly a big political issue to Americans these days.

Let's see... I'm assuming by "didn't completely suck" you actually mean "was very good" in which case, I can't think of ANY comic book movie villains that were awesome. Maybe Magneto... certainly not Dr. Doom, Doc Ock or Ra's Al Ghoul. They were okay, but no one on that Hannibal-Darth Vader-Agent Smith level... not even close.

To jump from "didn't completely suck" to "was very good" is a black-and-white fallacy.

Magneto, Doc Ock, and Ra's Al Ghul were okay or good. Doom was pretty much DINO. A good argument can be made that he WAS an original villain. The real Doom would have been a much more serious, epic threat.

That's the logical flaw, isn't it? Everyone wants comic book villains on the silver screen, as well they should. The thing is, though, that no one considers that a lot of comic book villains on the screen have sucked ass.

The Absorbing Man in the Hulk was just a big ol' mess.

Mr. Freeze? Poison Ivy? Two-Face?

All of it merely depends on the quality of the movie. If a movie is good, the villains are likely to be good. If a movie is bad, the villains are likely to be bad.

I think the Absorbing DAD was more of an original villain. But you have a point that if the movie is good (and not campy or misguided crap like CINO or Batman & Robin) then the villain would be good. I just think that when they try to write something original, the chances of screwing up are increased. The reason that certain villains (like Lex Luthor, Joker, Doom, Magneto) are remembered is because they were good and memorable. When you go against what is established, you're just making up your own unproven stuff, which could be hit or miss.

 

[InkSlinger]

Um, Joel Silver did.

Sorry, my bad.
I didn't see the post.
Thanks.

 

[InkSlinger]

Have you forgotten the Kingpin in DareDevil?
I thought he was pretty good.

Why does it have to be A super-villian?
Why couldn't it be a group or organization that is the villian, the reason she leaves Paradise Island?

An organization like, umm, say...the current Republican Administration.


(saw that one coming, didn't you?)

 

[SurfDUI]

Why couldn't it be a group or organization that is the villian, the reason she leaves Paradise Island?

An organization like, umm, say...the current Republican Administration.

Condeleeza for 'Cheetah' in '08

 

[InkSlinger]

Condeleeza for 'Cheetah' in '08

She'd probably look pretty good in leopard-skin tights and high-heeled boots.

 

[Fused]

Now theres a f**kin thread killer. . .

 

[Selene]

The Reason I think the movie is taking so long is the Studio may be balking at producing it. Joel Silver keeps moving onto other projects. Now he's doing SpeedRacer.

I don't think this movie will ever be made.

Oh and HI everyone!

 

[Katsuro]

Only a chump of a superhero needs a jet to get around, when they can travel under their own power. You know, like the Human Torch, half of the X-Men, or most of the Avengers.

To be fair, those people are all part of a team. Human Torch only rides in the Fantasticar because the rest of the team can't fly. You think if he left the F4 and went solo he'd stick with the thing? You think Angel asks the Professor to borow the Jet when he needs to go somewhere by himself? I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with your overall point, but that's kind of a bad example.

 

[Manic]

What if Wonder Woman needs/wants to bring Steve Trevor along somewhere? She's supposed to throw a saddle on her back and tell him to hang on to his knickers? Granted, I'm sure Steve would enjoy it (although why he'd be wearing knickers, I'll never know), but come on!

You want an excuse to include the invisible jet in the movie? Steve is a pilot. Hell, he could crash on Paradise Island in a new experimental stealth jet. There, problem solved. The invisible jet is in the movie, and everyone is happy.

 

[DrayvensCrow]

If I remember right, there was a part of a WW arc where actually getting to Paradise Island/Themyscara was more like a demensional travel type thing than how it was portrayed in the tv show. If Whedon wants to ground her and use the Tech-thing to enable her to get there and back to Man's World, that would be the way to go instead of the IJ route. As far as the whole villain thing goes, how about the old CLC-WW premise of having a rouge Amazon working with someone in Man's World?

 

[InkSlinger]

Now theres a f**kin thread killer. . .

Hey, I didn't bring her in, I just took a shot at the administration hoping to work up a reason for living for Wheldon.
(She ain't ugly, even if she is a Republican.)

 

[BrianWilly]

Is it really that hard to spell his name without the extra L? It's like calling someone Diana Prilnce.

 

[GL1]

I disagree. It wouldn't be seen as hypocrital to fight the God of War, since war is commonly seen as justifiable when the enemy is "evil" or is threatening you. The solution to the Nazis was military action, and no one has a problem with that.

The God of War is more or less war incarnate. To fight the man who is essentially Fighting itself is hypocritical. It's not like judging someone who is judgemental, it's like judging Judgement itself. It's rediculous, and I hate it when people outfight Ares.

Fighting Ares doesn't have to be political at all. Just have him trying to stir up a conflict between a couple fictional countries, NOT in the Middle East. They could be stand-ins for some place like Yugoslavia (like Kasnia is in the DCAU), which is hardly a big political issue to Americans these days.

And THAT'S the problem with Ares, why would Diana who is just now getting her origin and trying to find her place in Man's world, in AMERICA... how would she end up deeply inovlved in Kasnia? What kind of wonky story are you writing where Kasnia becomes a priroity in WW's origin adventure?

To jump from "didn't completely suck" to "was very good" is a black-and-white fallacy.

Magneto, Doc Ock, and Ra's Al Ghul were okay or good. Doom was pretty much DINO. A good argument can be made that he WAS an original villain. The real Doom would have been a much more serious, epic threat.

I didn't make that fallacial jump, I was pointing it out in someone elses's post. Regardless, Ra's Al Ghul was okay and Magneto was good, Doc Ock was somewhere inbetween and those are the cream of the crop. Daredevil, Spider-Man 1, Punisher, Fantastic Four, Superman Returns, Batman Forever, Batman & Robin, X-Men 2, and X-Men 3 all used comic book villains that were lackluster. Comic villains are not magic and a heroes most iconic villain, if they have one, does not always fit in the origin story.

Also, everything about Movie Doom came from comics, except for, y'know... him being corny. He wasn't origional in any way whatsoever. Don't ever accuse Fox of being origional, you'll always be wrong.

 

[DrayvensCrow]

Is it really that hard to spell his name without the extra L? It's like calling someone Diana Prilnce.

Read it again and ask!t:

 

[ClarkLuther55]

The God of War is more or less war incarnate. To fight the man who is essentially Fighting itself is hypocritical. It's not like judging someone who is judgemental, it's like judging Judgement itself. It's rediculous, and I hate it when people outfight Ares.

Ares is NOT "war incarnate," and never has been. He's just a deity who likes war and enjoys conflict. People fought him in everything from the original Greek myths to Hercules: The Legendary Journeys and of course, WW's comics.

And THAT'S the problem with Ares, why would Diana who is just now getting her origin and trying to find her place in Man's world, in AMERICA... how would she end up deeply inovlved in Kasnia? What kind of wonky story are you writing where Kasnia becomes a priroity in WW's origin adventure?

America is not the entirety of "man's world." Also, "Kasnia" (whatever fictional region they use) could be portrayed as a big tinder box ready to go off, and America (and most of the world) would be interested in keeping the peace. Steve Trevor is probably going to be in this movie, so he could be a direct political/military connection to Diana.

Also, everything about Movie Doom came from comics, except for, y'know... him being corny. He wasn't origional in any way whatsoever. Don't ever accuse Fox of being origional, you'll always be wrong.

When has Doom ever been some pathetic corporate jerk who mutates into a cross between Collossus and Electro, never threatening anybody except the FF themselves and a few members of his own Board? Movie Doom wasn't "original" in that they came up with fresh new ideas, but he WAS an "original" character because they basically made everything up while only keeping the name from the comics.

 

[GL1]

Ares is NOT "war incarnate," and never has been. He's just a deity who likes war and enjoys conflict. People fought him in everything from the original Greek myths to Hercules: The Legendary Journeys and of course, WW's comics.

Is not Ares mythologically responsible for all wars? Is he not the expert on war and all forms of combat. While Ares is not actually war incarnate, what are the differences between him and war incarnate? What can War Incarnate do that Ares cannot? Very little I believe. Also, if your goal is to fight, how can it be in conflict with someone who loves fighting?

Yes it's been done before, but there are many things in Greek Myth and Disney cartoons that don't belong in a Wonder Woman movie.

America is not the entirety of "man's world." Also, "Kasnia" (whatever fictional region they use) could be portrayed as a big tinder box ready to go off, and America (and most of the world) would be interested in keeping the peace. Steve Trevor is probably going to be in this movie, so he could be a direct political/military connection to Diana.

How do you make a movie about Wonder Woman fitting into man's world AND about an eastern European War? Those stories simply don't mesh... Perhaps you would be satisfied with a war movie that featured Wondy, but I think a Wonder Woman movie should be more than that.

When has Doom ever been some pathetic corporate jerk who mutates into a cross between Collossus and Electro, never threatening anybody except the FF themselves and a few members of his own Board? Movie Doom wasn't "original" in that they came up with fresh new ideas, but he WAS an "original" character because they basically made everything up while only keeping the name from the comics.

Fox are idiots, as most executives who pretend to be creators are, yes. But Doom's powers were taken from Ultimate Fantastic Four, not origional in the least. The executive bit was generic supervillain that's been done to death, but it isn't found in any Doom anywhere, you are correct about that. Those are certainly not fresh ideas.

 

[ClarkLuther55]

Is not Ares mythologically responsible for all wars?

No, he's not. There were mythological wars before he was even born (Olympians vs. Titans), and other wars were fought for reasons other than "Ares caused them." The Trojan war happened because someone stole another man's woman.

Is he not the expert on war and all forms of combat. While Ares is not actually war incarnate, what are the differences between him and war incarnate? What can War Incarnate do that Ares cannot? Very little I believe.

Please define "war incarnate" if you're going to claim that that's what Ares basically is. If you think that it means he revels in all types of conflict no matter the circumstances, that's not what the myths, TV shows, comics, etc. show.

Also, if your goal is to fight, how can it be in conflict with someone who loves fighting?

It can be in conflict with him if you kick his butt. Boxers and UFC fighters have a goal of fighting, but they wouldn't like it if they lost. Also, if Ares is trying to start a major war to feed off the conflict (the assumed plot if he's used), then killing/defeating some people to prevent the larger war would also foil his plans. Just like how firefighters might make some small fires to prevent the growth of a huge forest fire.

How do you make a movie about Wonder Woman fitting into man's world AND about an eastern European War? Those stories simply don't mesh... Perhaps you would be satisfied with a war movie that featured Wondy, but I think a Wonder Woman movie should be more than that.

Steve Trevor, as a member of the American military who would be interested in peacekeeping and preventing the war, would be Diana's direct link. And last time I checked, eastern Europe qualified as "man's world." You can have Diana there and show her in shock about how cruel and evil people can be.

If James Bond movies can have Bond traveling between London, Madagascar, the Bahamas, Miami, Montenegro, and Venice in the SAME movie, I don't see why WW can't handle two or three geographic locations.

Fox are idiots, as most executives who pretend to be creators are, yes. But Doom's powers were taken from Ultimate Fantastic Four, not origional in the least. The executive bit was generic supervillain that's been done to death, but it isn't found in any Doom anywhere, you are correct about that. Those are certainly not fresh ideas.

I'm not saying Doom was a "fresh" idea at all. He wasn't. Movie Doom was an Electro/Collossus hybrid with the motive ripped off from movie Norman Osborn. He was crap. But he was an "original" villain because the writers strayed from the comics and made up their own crap.

 

[KormanRogers]

Nubia

After giving Hippolyte the gift of children, the goddess Aphrodite instructed the Amazon Queen to fashion two figures from raw clay; one light - one dark. A after life was bestowed upon the twin girls, Hippolyte waited for the gods to arrive and endow the young Amazon with their gifts. Mars, the God of War, appeared first but instead of merely awarding the two youths with his presenrs, he abducted to ebon Amazon, then raised and trained her away from the influences of Paradise Island. Although not as well-known as Cheetah, Nubia was one of four 12-inch dolls produce by Mego in 1976. The Nubia doll came with a sword and shield; she was described as: "...WONDER WOMAN'S SUPER-FOE! That heartless arch-mistress of evil...NUBIA!"

 

[GL1]

No, he's not. There were mythological wars before he was even born (Olympians vs. Titans), and other wars were fought for reasons other than "Ares caused them." The Trojan war happened because someone stole another man's woman.

True. I was thinking of modern wars... the Ares I read about in WW comics starts virtually all wars that occur nowadays, it's his thing. There were wars before he was born, though, you are right.

Please define "war incarnate" if you're going to claim that that's what Ares basically is. If you think that it means he revels in all types of conflict no matter the circumstances, that's not what the myths, TV shows, comics, etc. show.

I think that Ares wants more conflicts to occur and takes steps to make that happen. That's the Ares that I've been reading about in the comics and watching on various TV shows... he DOES revel in all types of conflict. When ever has Ares been aversed to conflict? Aversed to losing, perhaps, but conflict? No, I'm afraid not.

It can be in conflict with him if you kick his butt. Boxers and UFC fighters have a goal of fighting, but they wouldn't like it if they lost. Also, if Ares is trying to start a major war to feed off the conflict (the assumed plot if he's used), then killing/defeating some people to prevent the larger war would also foil his plans. Just like how firefighters might make some small fires to prevent the growth of a huge forest fire.

That's a big if. Boxers and UFC fighters have a goal of winning, not starting as many conflicts as possible because that's their job. And while defeating the people whom Ares is inciting to fight DOES actually make sense, it's not only been done, but does not serve as a proper backdrop to who Wonder Woman is, which is what should be focused on for this origin story, not trying to recreate a current issue of Wonder Woman.

Steve Trevor, as a member of the American military who would be interested in peacekeeping and preventing the war, would be Diana's direct link. And last time I checked, eastern Europe qualified as "man's world." You can have Diana there and show her in shock about how cruel and evil people can be.

Again, a War movie can be made, but Diana turning from Amazon Princess to superhero is about more than how cruel and evil people can be... it's about relationships, character plots and introducing who Diana fundamentally is simply cannot be done with Steve Trevor and Ares and Kasnia... that's another Aeon Flux from the looks of it. Lots of potential, some good fights, but not a heroine you fall in love with.

If James Bond movies can have Bond traveling between London, Madagascar, the Bahamas, Miami, Montenegro, and Venice in the SAME movie, I don't see why WW can't handle two or three geographic locations.

Because Bond sells himself. Bond is gold. Bond doesn't need character development, they don't need to make you care about the character, they don't need to define the character for a new generation, they can just go, go, go! A Wonder Woman movie doesn't have those liberties. If WW did, then you and I would be buying her book every month, wouldn't we?

Furthermore, when Bond travels to all these places, they all fall under the SAME storyline. He's not going to America to hang out, he's going there to fulfil part of the story. If Ares is messing around in Kasnia, why would Wonder Woman be trying to fit in in America? You have to ground the character or else you come up with AeonFlux/Ultraviolet/Elektra/insert beautiful generic heroine here.

I'm not saying Doom was a "fresh" idea at all. He wasn't. Movie Doom was an Electro/Collossus hybrid with the motive ripped off from movie Norman Osborn. He was crap. But he was an "original" villain because the writers strayed from the comics and made up their own crap.

I just told you where you could find Movie Doom in comics. I don't understand why you think he's origional or that they made up their own. I really can't say it any more clearer: Movie Doom is from Ultimate Marvel.

 

[Lex Luthor]

What if Wonder Woman needs/wants to bring Steve Trevor along somewhere? She's supposed to throw a saddle on her back and tell him to hang on to his knickers? Granted, I'm sure Steve would enjoy it (although why he'd be wearing knickers, I'll never know), but come on!

You want an excuse to include the invisible jet in the movie? Steve is a pilot. Hell, he could crash on Paradise Island in a new experimental stealth jet. There, problem solved. The invisible jet is in the movie, and everyone is happy.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.