Daredevil Which Villains should appear in this TV series?

[The Guard]

I'd be fine if it was just Matt taking down regular criminals.

 

[The Overlord]

I'd be fine if it was just Matt taking down regular criminals.

I think there should episodes where DD deals with normal criminals, but I don't think you can do just that all the time. The reason why there are super villains in comics in the first place, is because they pose more of a threat then then some mook. Bullseye always gives DD a harder fight then some random mook. Its nice to have breather episodes where DD is dealing with more normal crime, but you do some villains that can pose a real challenge to DD as well.

Though, I did like the story where DD was jumped by 100 Yakuza guys, they were not normal criminals per say, because some of them were hopped up on drugs that gave them super powers.

 

[metaphysician]

If I had to make a random wild guess, I'd say there will be maybe two or three "super" enemies in the course of the show. Given the format, each episode doesn't need to be freestanding, so there is no need for a "villain of the week", super or not. So, you might have a couple episodes dealing with DD's origin, that segue into his ongoing war on crime. At various points as his investigation progresses, you'd have a super enemy show up, probably as elite minions or mercenaries serving the Kingpin's interests, and they'd be ongoing obstacles for several episodes, or recurring obstacles scattered throughout the season.

 

[Dark Raven]

They'd better have an ongoing law case that somehow ties into some of the supervillains he's fighting. It doesn't have to start right away. He can start defending a few one-off cases to begin with. I don't want him to be a rookie lawyer though if he's just starting off as DD. We don't need to see him fumbling his way both through crime fighting and the courtroom.

 

[the gael]

Matt will probably not be a rookie lawyer, because it doesn't make any sense for a rookie lawyer to have his law firm, expecially if the associate is... also a rookie lawyer ! I'm sure they will go with the Sussman and Castro thing, where Matt worked for another law firm in another town for some year before returning to NY.

 

[Gr0oT]

Well this does sound like some of the rights of these characters is in a big complicated, bureaucratic legal maze, but I'm not sure Marvel would do a DD series without Kingpin. That's like doing a Superman TV series without Lex Luthor or a Batman TV series without the Joker, there is a big part of the mythos missing. It seems like Marvel would want to have access to Kingpin before agreeing to make a DD TV show

I've never read it any of the early issues but there must have been something holding them together for the first 14 years before Kingpin made his appearance in the book.
In contrast Lex Luthor made his first appearance about 2 years after Superman did so he seems more quintessential to the character than Kingpin is to DD.

Keep in mind I have no clue whether to first 169 issues have enough quality and easy to contemporize material to fill 13 episodes, but I can't imagine they are that bad!

 

[Six]

If Fox could borrow the rights to Kingpin when they were making their movie(which was right around the time Spider-Man was a big hit and sequels were in development), I'm pretty sure Marvel could. Also, Marvel's relationship with Sony is much better than Sony's with Fox.

Kingpin is a huge part of Daredevil's mythos and I would be shocked if he didn't show up.

 

[Hypestyle]

so how much of the Marvel Mob is wrapped up in Spider-Man's "universe" anyway? Oh, and will the in-house term "Maggia" be used? Heh.

 

[Gr0oT]

so how much of the Marvel Mob is wrapped up in Spider-Man's "universe" anyway? Oh, and will the in-house term "Maggia" be used? Heh.

Well the Maggia first appeared in an Avengers comic but most of the cooler members did appear in the pages of Spider-Man.

You guys can check the link and see who might be available to show up in these shows.

Maggia

 

[Dark Raven]

Madame Masque and Whiplash (well, at least the Marc Scarlotti version) were members of the Maggia. So was Count Nefaria, Gladiator, Plant Man, Porcupine and Unicorn. Masque, Whiplash, Nefaria, Gladiator and Unicorn are all Iron Man villains. Even Porcupine could qualify too. Gladiator, of course, is also a well-known DD villain.

So there's plenty there. I wouldn't say the cooler members are Spidey villains. You mostly get the likes of Silvermane, Rapier and Hammerhead in the pages of Spider-Man. There are plenty of well-known ones already in the MCU.

 

[Gr0oT]

Well they best be ready to make with the award winning costume designs if that motley crew is to transition to live action.

 

[Frico]

Personally I'd like to see The Owl.

 

[The Overlord]

I've never read it any of the early issues but there must have been something holding them together for the first 14 years before Kingpin made his appearance in the book.
In contrast Lex Luthor made his first appearance about 2 years after Superman did so he seems more quintessential to the character than Kingpin is to DD.

Keep in mind I have no clue whether to first 169 issues have enough quality and easy to contemporize material to fill 13 episodes, but I can't imagine they are that bad!

And Bullseye was introduced in 1976, I think he is had a bigger impact on DD then the villains introduced in the Silver age. Alcoholism wasn't introduced into Iron Man, till the late 70s, but its hard to argue that is not important to Really Silver Age DD, was one of the weakest Silver age titles out there. Whenever someone makes a lame villain list, there are always a few Silver age DD villains on that least, he had one of the worst rogues galleries in Marvel back in the 60s. I think the fact that Miller used Kingpin to revitize DD's rogues gallery, makes Kingpin just as a important as Lex Luthor or Joker, what Silver Age DD villain has a better claim to being DD's arch nemesis over Kingpin?

Sure there was a DD series before Frank Miller, but it was on life support, that's why they teamed him up with Black Widow and had him move to San Francisco back in the 70s, those were gimmicks to boost sales, pairing two less then popular characters and moving them to a new location.

I'm not saying Silver age DD didn't have some good stories, I like the origin and the story where he fought Namor, but most of the DD stories from that era were lackluster, not the really the best DD stories ever told. For this TV series, do we want the best DD stories or just ones that were okay?

Madame Masque and Whiplash (well, at least the Marc Scarlotti version) were members of the Maggia. So was Count Nefaria, Gladiator, Plant Man, Porcupine and Unicorn. Masque, Whiplash, Nefaria, Gladiator and Unicorn are all Iron Man villains. Even Porcupine could qualify too. Gladiator, of course, is also a well-known DD villain.

So there's plenty there. I wouldn't say the cooler members are Spidey villains. You mostly get the likes of Silvermane, Rapier and Hammerhead in the pages of Spider-Man. There are plenty of well-known ones already in the MCU.

Yeah, but how many of those villains would fit as reoccurring villains in a DD series? DD only a fought the Maggia a few times in the 60s and 70s, he mainly fought against Kingpin's criminal empire and sometimes the Owl. DD has enough lame gimmick villains, without borrowing the Porcupine and Plant-Man and what role would Madame Masque play is a DD series? She has too much history with Iron Man to be a great DD villain, in Stark's rogues gallery is unique, in DD's rogues gallery she would either be a generic crime boss or another psycho girl friend villain and DD already has 3 of those. Count Nefaria would be okay, they don't really have a lot of history together, but that's not the end of the world, But which version of Nefaria would it be? The powerful version of Nefaria is way out of DD's league and wouldn't fit in a crime noir series. Most of the others mentioned are generic goons for hire and DD already has a ton of those in his rogues gallery.

I don't mind DD borrowing other people's villains, but I think they should fill a purpose in DD's rogues gallery. I'm not sure Whiplash fills any purpose that is not filled by the hordes of hired guns already in DD's rogues gallery. Whiplash is kinda of a dull character.

 

[Gr0oT]

So let's say ultimately Kingpin is off the table, who can be retooled to fit his role and would it be appropriate to do so?
This is an extension of the MCU and we all know that no character is a 100% translation of their 616 or Ultimate counterparts... So could Owl work as a surrogate Kingpin or would that simply be two wrongs trying to achieve a right?

 

[The Overlord]

So let's say ultimately Kingpin is off the table, who can be retooled to fit his role and would it be appropriate to do so?
This is an extension of the MCU and we all know that no character is a 100% translation of their 616 or Ultimate counterparts... So could Owl work as a surrogate Kingpin or would that simply be two wrongs trying to achieve a right?

I guess, but then you are trying to turn Owl into something he is not, at least not traditionally. I think Kingpin is a better concept as a crime boss, he has a better name, better look and better stories.

Maybe you can turn Owl into the Kingpin, but then what do you do in the eventual gang war story? Who would Owl be fighting against? Also how much of an Kingpin clone would Owl be, would he have a son that is always to trying to defy and a wife who he loves, but is trying to get him out the criminal business? This seems like trying to turn Wizard into Dr. Doom in an FF movie, because you don't have the rights to Doom, it would very hard to do well and could easily ring false. Plus DD doesn't have a great rogues gallery, taking away one of his most important villains seems like really weakens his rogues gallery.

I think I prefer Owl as he is nowadays, a second rate crime boss who's pretensions of civility are thin mask for someone who has animistic rage and is willing to spill blood at the drop of a hat. That makes him a great contrast to more calm and in control Kingpin. It puts DD is a bad spot, does he topple the Kingpin and let someone with no real impulse control try to take his throne or does he allow his hated enemy to retain his power.

Again, I wold hope Marvel would get the rights to Kingpin, before making a DD TV series, its hard to do DD well without having the man who most consider his arch nemesis. Sure Kingpin may not have appeared as early as Lex Luthor in Superman, but to me he is just as important. I'm not sure how many Superman fans would happy with a TV series that turns Morgan Edge into a Lex Luthor clone, rather then having Lex Luthor in it. I don't mean to be a fan boy here, I think there are reasons why Kingpin has been regarded as a better villain then Owl.

I don't mind most of the changes the MCU does to the villains (well except Malekith, he is pretty lame in the movies), but most the changes were to characters who were less important then Kingpin. Whiplash was a pretty C-list villain in the comics and the Mandarin did not have a lot of great stories to his name and had a lot of un-PC baggage from the Silver Age. Kingpin doesn't have those problems, it would be a change, not for artistic reasons, but simply because Marvel made a DD TV series without getting the rights to Kingpin in the first place, which seems to leave a giant hole in the franchise, that I'm not sure someone like Owl could fill.

I think it would take some very amazing story telling for me to buy Owl as the Kingpin, because its an idea that I'm not really thrilled with, so it would take a lot to win me over on that idea.

 

[Six]

I guess, but then you are trying to turn Owl into something he is not, at least not traditionally. I think Kingpin is a better concept as a crime boss, he has a better name, better look and better stories.

Maybe you can turn Owl into the Kingpin, but then what do you do in the eventual gang war story? Who would Owl be fighting against? Also how much of an Kingpin clone would Owl be, would he have a son that is always to trying to defy and a wife who he loves, but is trying to get him out the criminal business? This seems like trying to turn Wizard into Dr. Doom in an FF movie, because you don't have the rights to Doom, it would very hard to do well and could easily ring false.

I think I prefer Owl as he is nowadays, a second rate crime boss who's pretensions of civility are thin mask for someone who has animistic rage and is willing to spill blood at the drop of a hat. That makes him a great contrast to more calm and in control Kingpin. It puts DD is a bad spot, does he topple the Kingpin and let someone with no real impulse control try to take his throne or does he allow his hated enemy to retain his power.

Again, I wold hope Marvel would get the rights to Kingpin, before making a DD TV series, its hard to do DD well without having the man who most consider his arch nemesis. Sure Kingpin may not have appeared as early as Lex Luthor in Superman, but to me he is just as important. I'm not sure how many Superman fans would happy with a TV series that turns Morgan Edge into a Lex Luthor clone, rather then having Lex Luthor in it. I don't mean to be a fan boy here, I think there are reasons why Kingpin has been regarded as a better villain then Owl.

Agreed 100%.
I say Marvel do absolutely whatever they can to get Kingpin. Whether that means paying Sony, or a few sexual favours, just do whatever it takes.

 

[Gr0oT]

Heck of a conundrum these blasted franchising rights have us in again.
I can see how it be complete character assassination for the Owl, and for what I know of him I rather like his psychopathic tendencies.

But bottom line is that it feels like if we can't have Kingpin something completely different will have to be made, a new character serving as a surrogate Kingpin would probably suck.

The Hood is available, but like Count Nefaria he might be too overpowered. I don't know what to say, I'm sticking to my guns insofar as the evidence available backing the live-action rights to Kingpin being tied to Sony, and considering Sony being intent on a Spider-Man Cinematic Universe I wouldn't be surprise if they don't have something involving Silvermane, Kingpin, Hammerhead and Tombstone once they are done with the Oscorp story.

 

[Six]

If they can't get Kingpin they should create a character called PinKing just for the show. Lol

 

[The Overlord]

Heck of a conundrum these blasted franchising rights have us in again.
I can see how it be complete character assassination for the Owl, and for what I know of him I rather like his psychopathic tendencies.

But bottom line is that it feels like if we can't have Kingpin something completely different will have to be made, a new character serving as a surrogate Kingpin would probably suck.

The Hood is available, but like Count Nefaria he might be too overpowered. I don't know what to say, I'm sticking to my guns insofar as the evidence available backing the live-action rights to Kingpin being tied to Sony, and considering Sony being intent on a Spider-Man Cinematic Universe I wouldn't be surprise if they don't have something involving Silvermane, Kingpin, Hammerhead and Tombstone once they are done with the Oscorp story.

Again I'm still not sure that Arad was correct about Sony owning the rights to Kingpin (again I go back to the fact that the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon wasn't allowed to use Kingpin and was made by Sony) and even then, Marvel may have the TV rights to the character (Marvel is making the latest Spider-Man cartoon).

Even if Sony has the rights to Kingpin, even in the TV medium, if Sony was willing to lease Kingpin to Fox, why couldn't Marvel do the same?

I really hope Marvel got the rights to Kingpin before they made the DD series. I would go by that assumption, until I saw the cast sheets and saw he was not there.

I don't think Hood or Count Nefaria are good replacements for Kingpin, I don't think they fit with DD's crime noir world. Even without his powers, Nefaria seems too much like an over the top aristocrat with an obviously evil last name and without his powers, he has no physical presence, so I don't think he works as a Kingpin stand in. I guess Alexander Bont could be the Kingpin, but there you are trying to make a character who only appeared in one arc, take over as DD's main villain, that seems messy. Well I guess the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon replaced Kingpin with Tombstone, so maybe they could make another villain into the Kingpin, but it would take some really good writing to win me over on that choice.

 

[KangConquers]

Gladiator

 

[Dark Raven]

Gladiator

I want Gladiator with his helmet and body armour on, and not just a generic guy with wrist blades.

 

[silenceKILLS]

Drew Gooddard is writing/directing the Sinister Six movie for Sony. I'm sure a deal is in place for Kingpin to be on the show but the question is, will he appear in it? They could have the guy who Wilson killed to become the Kingpin first. We will find out when casting call are released. I just hope Elektra is in the show.

 

[Mr. Dent]

For those hoping that Kingpin will play an integral role in the Daredevil show I really wouldn't get my hopes up.



July 2nd 2012

Sony has taken a cue from the MCU in the profitability of creating a cinematic universe. Even though everything revolves around Oscorp at the moment they'll want to leave room in the future for a character that played a decent role in the Spider-Man canon.

I am not arguing that he wouldn't be used to better effect in the Netflix Daredevil show, especially considering that arguably the best Kingpin material was in Frank Miller's DD run, but realistically I don't see Sony putting a great character like Kingpin on indefinite loan.

I don't think Arad knew what he was talking about there. I'm pretty sure Kingpin is a part of the Daredevil license, considering that TSSM could not use Kingpin due to rights issues. Ben Urich is also a Spider-Man character but is under the Daredevil rights umbrella.

 

[Mr. Dent]

Anyway, since we only have 13 episodes for this (first?) season, I don't expect to see a lot. I think we'll get about 3 villains with one big overarching villain (Kingpin). I'd expect Bullseye definitely, and Elektra to be introduced as an anti-hero to Daredevil.

 

[Gr0oT]

Again I'm still not sure that Arad was correct about Sony owning the rights to Kingpin (again I go back to the fact that the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon wasn't allowed to use Kingpin and was made by Sony) and even then, Marvel may have the TV rights to the character (Marvel is making the latest Spider-Man cartoon).

I don't think Arad knew what he was talking about there. I'm pretty sure Kingpin is a part of the Daredevil license, considering that TSSM could not use Kingpin due to rights issues. Ben Urich is also a Spider-Man character but is under the Daredevil rights umbrella.

I doubt Arad would make the same mistake in two separate interviews about 10 years apart from each other.
Live-Action rights, Cartoon rights and Videogame rights are all managed differently.

Even if Sony has the rights to Kingpin, even in the TV medium, if Sony was willing to lease Kingpin to Fox, why couldn't Marvel do the same?

What complicates the loan is the new business model that Sony has, the Spidey Cinematic Universe that they are going for could discourage them from loaning out a character, especially for a series would be likely to have him in the show for multiple seasons. At the time of the Fox deal Sony had no plans for Kingpin and it was perhaps a one movie term.

I really hope Marvel got the rights to Kingpin before they made the DD series. I would go by that assumption, until I saw the cast sheets and saw he was not there.

Any clue when that would be? It certainly would put some doubts to rest although I imagine people would reason that he was being saved for the second season or something just to have hope to hold onto.

I don't think Hood or Count Nefaria are good replacements for Kingpin, I don't think they fit with DD's crime noir world. Even without his powers, Nefaria seems too much like an over the top aristocrat with an obviously evil last name and without his powers, he has no physical presence, so I don't think he works as a Kingpin stand in. I guess Alexander Bont could be the Kingpin, but there you are trying to make a character who only appeared in one arc, take over as DD's main villain, that seems messy. Well I guess the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon replaced Kingpin with Tombstone, so maybe they could make another villain into the Kingpin, but it would take some really good writing to win me over on that choice.

Do we really know that they are going the crime noir route for this, for all we know it might resemble Waid's run more than Millers.
Ultimately if they can't use Kingpin I rather they just use another popular storyline instead of making things messy but substituting characters.