Who should challenge Trump in 2020?

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Eh... That "Progressives" in the party have it out for Harris of all people says a lot more to me.

What we need to do is stop calling these people "progressives." They aren't. Kamala Harris is a progressive. Corey Booker is a progressive. Elizabeth Warren is a progressive. Hillary Clinton is a progressive. She has done more for the progressive movement in a single day then these whiners have done in their whole lives (and just to be clear, her giving a few paid speeches, as every retired SecState, Senator, President, First Lady, etc has done, does not negate that). The only ones who aren't progressives are the ones who have usurped that title. The Bernie Bros, whatever you want to call them. They aren't progressives. They are malcontents. Nothing will be good enough for them. They live for the fight. If you give them single payer healthcare, free college education, a $50 minimum wage, and pass a Constitutional Amendment mandating all campaigns be publicly funded, these so-called progressives will turn around and say "WELL WHY DIDN'T YOU CURE CANCER!? ITS BECAUSE YOU'RE IN BIG PHARMA'S POCKET!"
 
Matt, I am no expert on politics, I take a somewhat vested interest but I voted Bernie then Hillary to stop Cheeto Supreme from winning...now I'm told by many of my Bernie Bro friends that their vote for Jill Stein or Johnson wasn't why Hillary lost the election. I live in Florida.

I usually have a counter argument but I usually can't say it as eloquently as you can but can you answer a few questions so I can just use your rebuttal to their claims?

1. Did voting third party really hurt Clinton's bid?

2. Should the DNC have"conspired" against Bernie? I saw you say it was justified in an earlier post since the DNC has an obligation to those firmly in the party, why else was it justified?

3. Why is this seeming obsession with Bernie more damaging than it is being progressive?

4. Did the Clinton emails actually have anything incriminating?

I personally can't help but feel all these dumbasses on my timeline are the reason Trump actually won.
 
In MI, a state where Trump won by about 10,000 votes, the number of voters who voted, but did not vote for president nearly doubled, or by 45,000 votes.

Considering Bernie won the MI primary, yes, I am going freakin blame the Bernie Bros.
 
What we need to do is stop calling these people "progressives." They aren't. Kamala Harris is a progressive. Corey Booker is a progressive. Elizabeth Warren is a progressive. Hillary Clinton is a progressive. She has done more for the progressive movement in a single day then these whiners have done in their whole lives (and just to be clear, her giving a few paid speeches, as every retired SecState, Senator, President, First Lady, etc has done, does not negate that). The only ones who aren't progressives are the ones who have usurped that title. The Bernie Bros, whatever you want to call them. They aren't progressives. They are malcontents. Nothing will be good enough for them. They live for the fight. If you give them single payer healthcare, free college education, a $50 minimum wage, and pass a Constitutional Amendment mandating all campaigns be publicly funded, these so-called progressives will turn around and say "WELL WHY DIDN'T YOU CURE CANCER!? ITS BECAUSE YOU'RE IN BIG PHARMA'S POCKET!"

The Bernie Bros are basically the Democrats version of the Tea Party. Sadly we still haven't entered the Todd Akin and Sharon Angel phase of that yet
 
Cool your jets. The notion of a liberal litmus test, no matter what it is, is absurd. This article explains why. If the Bernie Bros continue to insist on a liberal litmus test then someone needs to be purged from the Democratic Party, and it sure as **** ain't the moderates.

Yes it is the "moderates"-- many of whom stump for doing things to "hold the (conservatives) accountable" but quietly concede that Detroit and Flint (and Detroit's school district) needed emergency management and/or bankruptcy.

The "far left" has never controlled a governorship. Never controlled a state assembly. Never been in control of a state board of education. Never had outright dominance of Congress. Not once. Not ever. But the opposite is quite true, on all fronts. This is our new normal, which is really an old one.

I don't know any "Bernie-bros" in Detroit-- As far as I'm concerned, his campaign's unstated reliance on "class trumps race" fell way short of confronting racial justice issues.
I just know that Detroit residents get marginalized and ostracized in state government decisions consistently, and outright support & advocacy from outstate Dems (generally Caucasian) tends to be tepid in great part because of fear of being labeled as too cozy with Detroit's "corruption" (read: black politicians e.g. Kwame Kilpatrick, & residents who are too poor & black & generally too criminal to be considered "heartland salt of the earth types") , so no, I'm not trying to hear the same narrative of 'centrist pragmatism really wins elections' anymore. I'm done with it. The "Reagan Democrats" among voters in Michigan and elsewhere bolted for GOP culture back in the 80s in part due to successful recasting of welfare as being recklessly abused by blacks & Hispanics as well as a return of the "minority hordes have ruined our once-great urban centers" storylines. Reagan was no great champion of organized labor but sure as heck got a hell of a lot of support from white auto workers and other blue collar trade workers during his two terms. The War on Drugs found no small support from suburbanite Democrat office-holders who were all in for zero-tolerance laws on the new super-scary crack epidemic starting in the 80s. Now that opioids have been "revealed" as a "new/old drug trend" with far reach into suburbia & rural areas, folks want to go out of their way to promote rehab or prevention initiatives. Neat. Sure could have used those sentiments back in the 80s and 90s.
 
It is the story of all states with major cities. Those not from the city resent the major city controlling the state politics. Which is true when the population favors the one city versus the rest of the state.
 
It is the story of all states with major cities. Those not from the city resent the major city controlling the state politics. Which is true when the population favors the one city versus the rest of the state.

Personally I think any city that has over 1 Million people should get it's own state status, which means they don't have state government tell them how to run it's city and they get to have their own set of Senators and congress people(although they don't vote in state wide races).

Nothing is worse then when Rural areas push their rules on urban centers or visa versa. it's sort of unfair for people say in San Antonio or Houston having to live under the rules of Texas or in the same vein rural people in California having to deal with a San Francisco/LA dominated Government
 
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Yes it is the "moderates"-- many of whom stump for doing things to "hold the (conservatives) accountable" but quietly concede that Detroit and Flint (and Detroit's school district) needed emergency management and/or bankruptcy.

The "far left" has never controlled a governorship. Never controlled a state assembly. Never been in control of a state board of education. Never had outright dominance of Congress. Not once. Not ever. But the opposite is quite true, on all fronts. This is our new normal, which is really an old one.

I don't know any "Bernie-bros" in Detroit-- As far as I'm concerned, his campaign's unstated reliance on "class trumps race" fell way short of confronting racial justice issues.
I just know that Detroit residents get marginalized and ostracized in state government decisions consistently, and outright support & advocacy from outstate Dems (generally Caucasian) tends to be tepid in great part because of fear of being labeled as too cozy with Detroit's "corruption" (read: black politicians e.g. Kwame Kilpatrick, & residents who are too poor & black & generally too criminal to be considered "heartland salt of the earth types") , so no, I'm not trying to hear the same narrative of 'centrist pragmatism really wins elections' anymore. I'm done with it. The "Reagan Democrats" among voters in Michigan and elsewhere bolted for GOP culture back in the 80s in part due to successful recasting of welfare as being recklessly abused by blacks & Hispanics as well as a return of the "minority hordes have ruined our once-great urban centers" storylines. Reagan was no great champion of organized labor but sure as heck got a hell of a lot of support from white auto workers and other blue collar trade workers during his two terms. The War on Drugs found no small support from suburbanite Democrat office-holders who were all in for zero-tolerance laws on the new super-scary crack epidemic starting in the 80s. Now that opioids have been "revealed" as a "new/old drug trend" with far reach into suburbia & rural areas, folks want to go out of their way to promote rehab or prevention initiatives. Neat. Sure could have used those sentiments back in the 80s and 90s.

Frankly, and forgive my bluntness, but it's 6:30 am and I have a hearing I am in no way prepared for in a couple hours, I give no ****s about what you are "trying to hear." Bernie Bros weren't "trying to hear" about how damaging a vote for Jill Stein was. We now have empirical data that proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that their protest votes handed Donald Trump the presidency. Tell me, what has he done for Flint?

You're right. Far leftist have never ruled in this country. The reason why is simple: they do not represent the majority and we are a democracy. The basis for our nation doesn't get thrown out the window because you don't get your way when the majority votes. Far leftists do not have the appeal to get elected. It is that simple. Left leaning centrists do. So, you can either expect incremental progress (and make no mistake, progress was made under Obama, however it is now all being undone by Trump). Or you can throw a temper tantrum and hand elections to people who are openly adverse to your needs and ideals. :hmm: This is such a tough choice.

Tl;dr: grow the **** up. There are tons of things I'm "not trying to hear." Being an adult means hearing those things, accepting reality for what it is, and working your hardest to make the best of reality. It doesn't mean living in a fantasy world where you only accept facts that are favorable to your worldview and stubbornly throw temper tantrums when things aren't going your way.
 
Bernie Bros are in complete denial.

They're the reason Trump is in the White House.

They're the reason the Russians successfully subverted our democracy.

They're the reason Obama's policies are being undone and America is moving backwards 30 years on many issues. (Obama was an "evil" centrist btw)

Take responsibility and move forward.

If you can't learn from Ralph Nader from 16 years ago, learn from an election that just happened several months ago!

Also, it would be nice if you recognize most the people ranting online about Wall Street Booker and Wall Street Harris are Russian bots, red hats and alt right members playing you like a drum.

Bernie won't even acknowledge the difference between the Nordic model (robust free market economy) and Democratic Socialism ("social ownership" of the means of production). If that's not a red flag you're being led astray then I don't know what is.
 
Well, they're not the sole reason - but if they were pragmatic instead of zealously loony we may be having very different discussions today because Trump wouldn't be president.
 
No, not the sole reason but the main reason Trump won.

He could not have won without the protest vote and these suckers still won't admit they got played by Russians and the alt right. And they are STILL complaining about Wall Street democrats while Trump proposes cutting every marginally leftist program in existence. And the Russians and alt right continue to egg them on, on social media.

How blind and hard headed can you be?
 
When it comes to politics most people are completely irrational. They've chosen their political religion and they're going to protect it to the death.
 
A celebrity. Someone like The Rock

Put another politician up there again and Trump is guaranteed 4 more years
 
Wasn't there news about the Dems courting celebrities for a run in 2020 like Hanks, Clooney, or The Rock?
 
We really need to arrest this trend that "anyone can be the president", seeing names like Oprah Winfrey or Chris Evans thrown around is ****ing ridiculous. They'd be clear improvements on Trump, but there's no guarantee they'd be any better equipped to handle nuanced issues better. How will Oprah or Cap deal with Putin? Do they even understand basic economics? How does the Rock speak on the nuclear triad?

Jesus people the president of the USA needs to be qualified as ****.
 
Yeah Oprah was on the list too. I can't find the article. :( Apparently Americans don't want qualified people, just popular people. Outsiders if you will. :(
 
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God bless, but minority progressives have been at this way longer than the Greens or the Sanders movement. They're latecomers. Most of Detroit voted for Clinton-- not Stein, not Sanders-- if neither run for any office again, fine by me. I don't represent either. I'm looking at Detroit and other urban centers. I'm very grown up, don't go there, come on now--
my gripes are in observing how cities like Detroit get treated economically, and how state and national campaigns frequently ignore urban centers or set up these areas as bogeymen. The big national names don't live on the ground here, they're not plugged into the struggles of inner-city culture. The policies they promote work the best for people who are already part of their own safely middle-class life.

conservatives have gradually pushed public policy off of a cliff for decades now, I get nothing out of the rhetoric that says these people are "a little misguided" or approaches that hyper-incrementalism is the only moral, "sane" purpose. hell no it's not. Circa the 2014 elections, I remember seeing Chuck Schumer openly lament at a town-hall style meeting that he wished that Dems hadn't pushed for the Affordable Health Care Act so hard and (paraphrasing) it "cost them" (votes). That was beyond bonkers to me, straight up. Throwing your own policy under a bus is not the way to build your brand. Dems have seen Republican takeovers coming for years, but collectively were more into appealing to middle class whites without being seen as going "too far" with more progressive ideas. Sanders/Stein have not been responsible for the takeovers in state assemblies in the 80s/90s/00s. We all know this. Jesse Jackson was the "Sanders" of the 1984 and 1988 election cycles, and he built up a much more organically multicultural coalition than Sanders. Obviously he didn't secure any final nominations. But for him to not be brought in as a VP candidate after the conventions was extremely short-sighted.

Tell people who have nothing that incrementalism is all that. it's not working, certainly not at the local level. I'm not talking about eventual "results". Make the attempt to be bold in your ideas, stop reflexively going with "well that's never going to work here so let's advocate for 10% of that and maybe the neo-cons won't cut it down to 1% by the time the negotiations with them are over". That's what I'm not trying to hear. Self-compromise to the point of absurdity. It makes no sense.

Why hasn't anyone with a national platform tried proposing a new Works Progress Administration initiative, or Civilian Conservation Corp? Talk about it publicly, don't just privately dismiss it. Openly defend affirmative action.

The dialogue that rampantly mentions "the middle class" but statistically does not remotely mention advocating for "the poor" nearly as much is grossly intellectually dishonest. I'm not hung up on a federal $15 minimum wage-- I seriously doubt it's coming anytime soon-- but it inspired grassroots efforts to advocate for better wages, work conditions.

State-based party infrastructure misses the boat with urban outreach. People aren't being educated on voting rights. People with no connection to the party apparatus are not being serviced with only threadbare acknowledgment of an imbalance in voting access in urban centers. Considering the census is coming in 2020 (not just the pres. election) I hope Dems are prepared to vigorously advocate for reform in the way that voting districts are drawn. Dems mostly keep losing at the state assembly level, and given that these bodies have the right to design voting districts, a lot of states are poised to have screwy-looking voting bloc maps again.

There is a hell of a lot of longstanding apathy in urban minority communities where they feel that they're simply not being listened to. TV appearances with Jay-Z, Mary J Blige., etc., don't accomplish this. You want to appeal to them? Hire them. Find the money. Get some hedge-fund/limousine liberals to set up a fund. Invite them to volunteer. State DNC managers, do more urban minority recruitment. cut back on sending well-meaning college-aged white kids to the 'hood to go door-knocking.

"Liberalism" as exemplified by the Clintons and their affiliations are certainly not the staunch Marxist ideologues that the conservative culture portrays them to be, but they are also not remotely the pinnacle of what can be done better in comparison. $1,000 a plate fundraising dinners mean nothing to people who can't afford that. You want to have those fundraisers, cool especially in this era of Citizens United. Then after that, go do an event where low-income folks get to talk with you and have dinner for free.
 
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Liberals have the numbers.

Hillary beat Trump by 3 million votes and her reputation is absolutely toxic.

So the idea that Democrats alienated most Americans is largely false.

The problem is that districts are mostly drawn to benefit Republicans so they dominate the Legislative branch.

That by itself wouldn't doom the country but for some outdated reason the popular vote doesn't determine who's president so instead of some balance and compromise we're stuck with all three branches of government controlled by a smaller group of people (conservatives).

I love the Bill of Rights but the electorate college lacks anywhere near the same foresight and vision.
 
A celebrity. Someone like The Rock

Put another politician up there again and Trump is guaranteed 4 more years

Absolutely ****ing not. I don't care how likable he is; he's not qualified to be president. We need someone who knows what they're doing in the White House, full stop. You wouldn't hire a dog walker to do your taxes, so don't elect a celebrity to lead and represent your country.
 
Clinton was backed by the whole Hollywood. If celebrities had that much influence, she would've won. Actually I think there are a lot of people tired of celebrities being political. That would be a mistake.
 
I think it's very different if you actually have a celebrity on the ticket. If the Rock or Beyonce threw their names in the ring it would be a resounding success, I'm almost certain.

Hillary did still win the popular vote too, and she has the charisma of a charred corpse - someone like the Rock would probably clean up, unfortunately.
 
Unfortunately after Trump requirements including political savvy don't mean **** anymore. The people spoke. Or Russia depending on what you suspect.
 
I'd hope the phenomenon of Trump causes a move to develop minimum requirements for someone to be an eligible candidate. This myth that anyone can do the job needs to be stamped out, not only does it take knowledge and expertise in various administrative and technical disciplines - there should also be prerequisites in terms of personality and demeanor. I think when it comes to the individual representing the interests of 350m people there need to be higher standards than the average Joe/Jane on the street.
 
lol, watch those interview in the rust belt asking why they voted for Trump. Basically it boiled down to, "he talks like I talk."
 
That's the disturbing part - Trump's election seems to be a very perverted little wish fulfillment exercise where people basically elected themselves.
 
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