Infinity War Who will die in Infinity war Part 1 and 2

[SteveRogers41]

Rarely in film does this work though. For every Adonis Creed, there are more Sam Flynn's from failed movies like Tron: Legacy. This is why I don't see the legacy angle working.

They don't. You have absolutely hit the nail on the head.

The X-Files normally had a nielson rating of 19.8 at the height of its popularity. The minute they replace David Duchovny as Mulder with a different agent, the ratings dropped to a nielson of 9.0. A cut of more than half.

The Office, at it's height, had a viewership of 9 million and a show ranking of 11 (as in it was the 11th most popular show on television). They replace Steve Carell as lead and the show dropped to 5 million viewers and to a show ranking of of 41.

Even people in ensemble casts. Star Trek: The Next Generation replaced the character Dr. Crusher with Dr. Pulaski during it's second season. The fan backlash was so great that they brought Dr. Crusher back for the third season and every season of that show thereafter.

And let's discuss replacing leads that weren't even popular to begin with and the show still tanking as a result. Two and a Half Men had Charlie Sheen as it's lead. Sheen, during the shows run, became notorious for beating up his wife, cheating, lying, doing drugs, accumulating DUIs and being a general degenerate. The show thought the best course of action was to replace him. So they hired Ashton Kutcher, who was coming off his popularity with That 70's Show and a few B rated movies like the Butterfly Effect. Krutcher had a much cleaner record and was far more socially acceptable. And still the ratings for Two and a Half Men tanked, going from 15 million viewers to 8 million once Kutcher replaced Sheen.

Bottom-line. Legacy characters work in comics because everyone knows that deaths in comics are never permanent and that the original is coming back. They do not work in film. They have a long history of not working in film.

 

[MbJ]

Movies aren't the comics. Comic readers are morons - I have been one myself for over 40 years, so I should know. We want the same characters in the same stories repeated over and over again until the heat death of the universe.

Moviegoers respond strongly to new characters and new stories, and don't give a crap about who is or is not important to the long time comic book reader. We've seen this quite recently with the "C" lister Black Panther nearly doubling up DC's All Star Superhero team at the Box Office. If Tony or Steve falls in battle Feige and company will either move on to other characters or have someone else put on the suit or pick up the shield.

Yeah I don't know how we're even still having the discussion of A, B, and C list when one of Marvel's biggest cinematic properties currently stars Rocket Raccoon.

 

[Flemm]

Movies aren't the comics. Comic readers are morons - I have been one myself for over 40 years, so I should know. We want the same characters in the same stories repeated over and over again until the heat death of the universe.

That's a very relevant point. The audience for the comics is a small niche audience, very set in its ways, with specific expectations, a strong sense of power hierarchy, etc.

The audience for the movies is not a niche audience, it's a massive, mainstream audience, so changing up the formula has very different results.

I'm not advocating for a particular thing, but it's become pretty obvious that movie audiences are looking for new characters and new interpretations of the genre.

That's probably not an argument for legacy characters, really. I don't think that they need Steve or Tony to be central figures, but, by the same token, I don't think that they really need a new Cap or Iron Man either, at least not right away.

I think that they will simply shift the focus to the newer characters, and continue to build on that.

 

[SteveRogers41]

What is the obsession with Legacy characters in the MCU? I mean, what possible purpose is there to another Captain America or Ironman that another - new character couldn't bring into the fold with more? Why can't Bucky & Sam just be Bucky and Sam? Why can't Rhodes or Riri (if introduced) just be Rhodey or Riri?

Got me. I think a lot of people forget that online fandom, i.e. people interested enough in something to the point where they join message boards or reddit and discuss details ad nauseam (myself included - I am definitely not judging, here) only make up a small, small percentage of the general audience. That most people who go to see these movies are what we would call casual viewers. They don't read the comics, they don't go online to discuss, they don't know that legacy characters are a thing. The fact that according to the MPAA states that the age breakdown for movie attendance and ticket sales is this:

By age:

2-11 = 13%
12-17 = 8%
18-24 = 10%
25-39 = 21%
40-49 = 13%
60+ = 21%

Also shows the disconnect. The largest percentage of viewers is in the 25-39 age demographic and the 60+ age demographic. Followed by the 40-49 age demographic and the 2-11 age demo. And yet the most common age for social media are the two demographics who buy the least amount of tickets: 12-17 and 18-24. That right there shows a HUGE disconnect between who is buying the most tickets and who is on sites like reddit discussing these movies and legacy characters.

There is a cognitive bias called the projection bias. In it people assume that everyone in the wider world must think they way they do because the small group of people they surround themselves do. I think that is what goes on here. The 18-24 demographic grew up on Ed Brubaker's Captain America run of 2005-2011. They are the most dominate on social media. So they assume everyone must have a shared experience when that is not the case AT ALL. As someone who is part of the 40-49 age demographic, myself, who's first intro to Cap was the Mark Gruenwald era, I don't even consider Brubaker's run, which featured Bucky!Cap, even that great. In my opinion it was overrated.

 

[Flash525]

Got me. I think a lot of people forget that online fandom, i.e. people interested enough in something to the point where they join message boards or reddit and discuss details ad nauseam (myself included - I am definitely not judging, here) only make up a small, small percentage of the general audience. That most people who go to see these movies are what we would call casual viewers. They don't read the comics, they don't go online to discuss, they don't know that legacy characters are a thing.

[snip]

I guess that's where it differs for me; I'm 31, and I've never read a single comic book in my life. I grew up with Batman and Superman, and hadn't even heard of characters such as Ironman & Captain America. It wasn't until the film trailers came out and I watched them that I started to become interested and involved in the MCU.

Every bit of detail I'm aware of has been through online research, or through interacting with fans who do know their stuff. I figure that's why Legacy characters don't matter, or appeal to me in the sense that they may do to avid comic book fans who specifically want to watch X, Y & Z happen on the big screen.

 

[SteveRogers41]

I guess that's where it differs for me; I'm 31, and I've never read a single comic book in my life. I grew up with Batman and Superman, and hadn't even heard of characters such as Ironman & Captain America. It wasn't until the film trailers came out and I watched them that I started to become interested and involved in the MCU.

Every bit of detail I'm aware of has been through online research, or through interacting with fans who do know their stuff. I figure that's why Legacy characters don't matter, or appeal to me in the sense that they may do to avid comic book fans who specifically want to watch X, Y & Z happen on the big screen.

To be honest, as a avid comic fan, I don't really care for legacy characters either. Usually when they happen I cancel the subscription and wait for the original character to come back before resuming. I did read the Bucky!Cap run, however and I didn't like it. Bucky, as Cap, was a disaster. He spent more time being saved by Sam and Natasha than doing any actual saving himself. And his constant self-doubt got exhausting after about two issues.

 

[Flemm]

As someone who is part of the 40-49 age demographic, myself, who's first intro to Cap was the Mark Gruenwald era, I don't even consider Brubaker's run, which featured Bucky!Cap, even that great. In my opinion it was overrated.

That may very well be true, in the sense that fans who specifically want to see Bucky take up the mantle don't represent the audience as a whole.

But that doesn't mean that it's a bad concept, or that it wouldn't work on the big screen, if Marvel Studios decided to go in that direction.

The large, mainstream audience for these movies isn't advocating for anything, really. But they are not opposed to a specific choice either.

It would depend mostly on how it was handled, hypothetically, and whether or not Marvel Studios was able to do it convincingly, in a compelling way.

I think that they probably would, if they decided to go in that direction. It would surprise me a bit if they do. I'm not personally expecting it. But it's not impossible.

 

[SteveRogers41]

That may very well be true, in the sense that fans who specifically want to see Bucky take up the mantle don't represent the audience as a whole.

But that doesn't mean that it's a bad concept, or that it wouldn't work on the big screen, if Marvel Studios decided to go in that direction.

The large, mainstream audience for these movies isn't advocating for anything, really. But they are not opposed to a specific choice either.

It would depend mostly on how it was handled, hypothetically, and whether or not Marvel Studios was able to do it convincingly, in a compelling way.

I think that they probably would, if they decided to go in that direction. It would surprise me a bit if they do. I'm not personally expecting it. But it's not impossible.

I think what you're forgetting here is that legacy characters have a history of not working in film (see my post above with specific examples and numbers supporting each example). The general audience associates Steve Rogers as Captain America. It's his title. It's his mantle. They are used to him. Putting Bucky in that mantle will inevitably compare them and Bucky will be found lacking because first named bias is an actual psychological phenomenon and Steve is so popular and loved.

I honestly believe that is why they dropped the 'White Wolf' bomb in the Black Panther credit scene. Because Feige, himself an admitted fan of Next Generation, and thus familiar with the Crusher/Pulaski situation, knows how these things go.

 

[Flash525]

That may very well be true, in the sense that fans who specifically want to see Bucky take up the mantle don't represent the audience as a whole.

But that doesn't mean that it's a bad concept, or that it wouldn't work on the big screen, if Marvel Studios decided to go in that direction.

The large, mainstream audience for these movies isn't advocating for anything, really. But they are not opposed to a specific choice either.

It would depend mostly on how it was handled, hypothetically, and whether or not Marvel Studios was able to do it convincingly, in a compelling way.

I think that they probably would, if they decided to go in that direction. It would surprise me a bit if they do. I'm not personally expecting it. But it's not impossible.

It's already been explained (rather well I think) why the mainstream audience wouldn't take to Bucky as the next Captain America. Respectfully, I think your desire is clouding your judgement a little (as far as the MCU at least goes).

Bucky killed Howard Stark and his wife. That alone is going to be a constant reminder to the mainstream audience if Bucky suddenly suits up with the Shield. I think the scene with Steve and Bucky fighting Stark whilst passing the Shield between them was a nod to the comics (similarly to Steve almost picking up the Hammer in AoU); that's as far as this nod is going to go.

In my opinion, Marvel would be fools to replace Steve Rogers; if he is to die, simply let him (and the persona of Captain America) die with him.

 

[Flemm]

I think what you're forgetting here is that legacy characters have a history of not working in film (see my post above with specific examples and numbers supporting each example). The general audience associates Steve Rogers as Captain America. It's his title. It's his mantle. They are used to him. Putting Bucky in that mantle will inevitably compare them and Bucky will be found lacking because first named bias is an actual psychological phenomenon and Steve is so popular and loved.

Yeah, I saw that, but I don't think that it's an airtight argument at all, tbh.

The MCU has not developed into the phenomenon that it is by following established convention and making safe choices. That is one point.

Another point is that Bucky himself would no doubt feel that living up to Steve's legacy would be difficult or impossible for him. He would struggle with that burden and those expectations, which would be part of his story, and part of what might make it compelling, hypothetically.

So, anyway. I'm not really expecting it, but the idea that it is impossible, or doomed to failure, doesn't strike me as particularly convincing.

Ultimately, it will come down to a creative choice, and I'm very curious to see how it plays out. Not just with Cap, but with many of the other phase 1 characters as well.

Yes, of course, conventional wisdom in Hollywood would dictate that the studio should keep making Iron Man movies until people are sick of them, and then reboot or something, 5 years later.

But that's just not how Marvel Studios has chosen to operate.

 

[SteveRogers41]

Yeah, I saw that, but I don't think that it's an airtight argument at all, tbh.

The MCU has not developed into the phenomenon that it is by following established convention and making safe choices. That is one point.

Another point is that Bucky himself would no doubt feel that living up to Steve's legacy would be difficult or impossible for him. He would struggle with that burden and those expectations, which would be part of his story, and part of what might make it compelling, hypothetically.

So, anyway. I'm not really expecting it, but the idea that it is impossible, or doomed to failure, doesn't strike me as particularly convincing.

Ultimately, it will come down to a creative choice, and I'm very curious to see how it plays out. Not just with Cap, but with many of the other phase 1 characters as well.

Yes, of course, conventional wisdom in Hollywood would dictate that the studio should keep making Iron Man movies until people are sick of them and then reboot or something, 5 years later.

But that's just not how Marvel Studios has chosen to operate.

We'll see. My thinking is that Disney is concerned with profit most of all. As is any business. And the bulk of the profit isn't just in movie ticket sales, it's mostly in merch. Risking a huge seller like Steve for what could become a lesser seller, like Bucky, wouldn't be a worthwhile risk. This is my two cents as a statistician who works in business analysis. Bottom-line is profit. It's always profit.

But clearly we're not going to agree here, so we'll leave it at that.

As a side note: as a comic reader, I didn't find Bucky struggling under the mantle compelling at all, story-telling wise. I thought him way, way too... whinny. Really put me off of the character. Naturally this is a subjective opinion but I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one who would feel this way.

 

[SteveRogers41]

It's already been explained (rather well I think) why the mainstream audience wouldn't take to Bucky as the next Captain America. Respectfully, I think your desire is clouding your judgement a little (as far as the MCU at least goes).

Bucky killed Howard Stark and his wife. That alone is going to be a constant reminder to the mainstream audience if Bucky suddenly suits up with the Shield. I think the scene with Steve and Bucky fighting Stark whilst passing the Shield between them was a nod to the comics (similarly to Steve almost picking up the Hammer in AoU); that's as far as this nod is going to go.

In my opinion, Marvel would be fools to replace Steve Rogers; if he is to die, simply let him (and the persona of Captain America) die with him.

Excellent point. Half the audience already has opinions formed about Bucky that aren't favorable because of this fact, which didn't exist in the comics.

 

[KevTravels]

They don't. You have absolutely hit the nail on the head.

The X-Files normally had a nielson rating of 19.8 at the height of its popularity. The minute they replace David Duchovny as Mulder with a different agent, the ratings dropped to a nielson of 9.0. A cut of more than half.

The Office, at it's height, had a viewership of 9 million and a show ranking of 11 (as in it was the 11th most popular show on television). They replace Steve Carell as lead and the show dropped to 5 million viewers and to a show ranking of of 41.

Even people in ensemble casts. Star Trek: The Next Generation replaced the character Dr. Crusher with Dr. Pulaski during it's second season. The fan backlash was so great that they brought Dr. Crusher back for the third season and every season of that show thereafter.

And let's discuss replacing leads that weren't even popular to begin with and the show still tanking as a result. Two and a Half Men had Charlie Sheen as it's lead. Sheen, during the shows run, became notorious for beating up his wife, cheating, lying, doing drugs, accumulating DUIs and being a general degenerate. The show thought the best course of action was to replace him. So they hired Ashton Kutcher, who was coming off his popularity with That 70's Show and a few B rated movies like the Butterfly Effect. Krutcher had a much cleaner record and was far more socially acceptable. And still the ratings for Two and a Half Men tanked, going from 15 million viewers to 8 million once Kutcher replaced Sheen.

Bottom-line. Legacy characters work in comics because everyone knows that deaths in comics are never permanent and that the original is coming back. They do not work in film. They have a long history of not working in film.

While I do agree, you have to take into account these series had been for years before the lead was replaced. X-File's peak was probably season 4/5 and the ratings dropped season 6/7. It kept dropping when Duchovny left, but it might have dropped further regardless if he stayed. People can only hang around a tv series for so long and then they find something "more new/fresh/sexy".

I'm sure most of the folks watched 2 and a Half Men simply for Charlie Sheen's insane behavior. But as time went on, people became even more bored with.

 

[SteveRogers41]

While I do agree, you have to take into account these series had been for years before the lead was replaced. X-File's peak was probably season 4/5 and the ratings dropped season 6/7. It kept dropping when Duchovny left, but it might have dropped further regardless if he stayed. People can only hang around a tv series for so long and then they find something "more new/fresh/sexy".

I'm sure most of the folks watched 2 and a Half Men simply for Charlie Sheen's insane behavior. But as time went on, people became even more bored with.

Speaking as an X-Files fan who watched all 9 seasons (and has been enjoying the current 11th season), the show was just not the same without Mulder. The chemistry that Duchovny and Anderson shared just wasn't there between Anderson and Patrick. And the switching of roles, with Scully being the skeptic with Mulder to having to become the believer to Doggett's skeptic didn't work. It changed the entire tone of the show and not in a good way.

It wasn't fatigue that made that show tank. It was the fact that the dynamics changed entirely in a way that made the show semi-unrecognizable.

Mulder was missed.

 

[MbJ]

Yes exactly. Audiences have sunk a lot of time and money into the MCU, and they've been promised a big event with huge stakes.

Indeed. You can't have a big huge event of this nature that promises to close out 10 years worth of stories and have the biggest deaths be a bunch of love interests or sidekicks. Mark my words. By the end of A4 we are gonna get at least one of the Big 4 dying (money's still on Iron Man but I wouldn't be surprised if it's Cap).

 

[Zarex]

I think what you're forgetting here is that legacy characters have a history of not working in film (see my post above with specific examples and numbers supporting each example). The general audience associates Steve Rogers as Captain America. It's his title. It's his mantle. They are used to him. Putting Bucky in that mantle will inevitably compare them and Bucky will be found lacking because first named bias is an actual psychological phenomenon and Steve is so popular and loved.

Your post shows that network TV shows will often lose viewers after popular actors leave. But it often it has the opposite effect of freshening up a tired product. The ratings for Grey's Anatomy increased after "McDreamy" left. And shows like Mary Tyler Moore, MASH and Cheers all experienced ratings bumps after popular long time cast members left the show.

But none of that matters. What works (or doesn't work) in a network TV show tells us absolutely nothing about whether or not legacy characters will be embraced by the audiences in a connected cinematic universe. I wouldn't be surprised if Feige and company dip their toes further into this water - they already have with Scott Lang, Hope Van Dyne and Carol Danvers - over the next few years.

 

[SteveRogers41]

Your post shows that network TV shows will often lose viewers after popular actors leave. But it often it has the opposite effect of freshening up a tired product. The ratings for Grey's Anatomy increased after "McDreamy" left. And shows like Mary Tyler Moore, MASH and Cheers all experienced ratings bumps after popular long time cast members left the show.

But none of that matters. What works (or doesn't work) in a network TV show tells us absolutely nothing about whether or not legacy characters will be embraced by the audiences in a connected cinematic universe. I wouldn't be surprised if Feige and company dip their toes further into this water - they already have with Scott Lang, Hope Van Dyne and Carol Danvers - over the next few years.

The MCU, like network television, is serial storytelling, so yes the comparison is relevant. And no one is tired of Steve Rogers, as evident by the fact that he's a top three merch seller, and his beard was the most talked about topic of the first IW trailer.

And you do realize what the difference is between Hope, Scott and Carol to Steve Rogers is do you not?

Scott was introduced as the lead. As is Carol. Hank didn't have three solo movies, two Avengers movies and a Thor cameo under his belt prior to someone inheriting his mantle.

Whereas the audience is very used to Steve, who has been Cap for three solo movies, two Avengers films (about to be four) and a Thor cameo. Neither Ant-Man nor Captain Marvel had much of a basis for comparison to the general audience unfamiliar with comics, whereas Captain America very much does.

You're trying to compare apples and oranges. Bottom-line: The general audience knows Steve Rogers as Captain America. He's a top three merch seller. He is popular, he is beloved. His boss, Feige, likens Chris Evans performance as Cap to that of Christopher Reeve as Superman. Children especially love the guy and they are THE most lucrative demographic. He is tough shoes to fill. That is the end all and be all of it. You Bucky fans wanting Bucky to be accepted as Cap through the sheer force of your will and by arguing with me on the internet is not going to make it happen. In fact, that attitude is so damn entitled. You are not an accurate representative of the general audience. Not even close.

Moreover, Steve did not kill the Stark parents. Steve was not a brainwashed assassin for years. Steve doesn't have those obstacles to overcome to win the audiences' trust.

These are the facts.

 

[Flash525]

Whereas the audience is very used to Steve, who has been Cap for three solo movies, two Avengers films (about to be four) and a Thor cameo. Neither Ant-Man nor Captain Marvel had much of a basis for comparison to the general audience unfamiliar with comics, whereas Captain America very much does.

You're trying to compare apples and oranges. Bottom-line: The general audience knows Steve Rogers as Captain America. He's a top three merch seller. He is popular, he is beloved. His boss, Feige, likens Chris Evans performance as Cap to that of Christopher Reeve as Superman. Children especially love the guy and they are THE most lucrative demographic. He is tough shoes to fill. That is the end all and be all of it. You Bucky fans wanting Bucky to be accepted as Cap through the sheer force of your will and by arguing with me on the internet is not going to make it happen. In fact, that attitude is so damn entitled. You are not an accurate representative of the general audience. Not even close.

Moreover, Steve did not kill the Stark parents. Steve was not a brainwashed assassin for years. Steve doesn't have those obstacles to overcome to win the audiences' trust.

Agreed! Completely.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Your post shows that network TV shows will often lose viewers after popular actors leave. But it often it has the opposite effect of freshening up a tired product. The ratings for Grey's Anatomy increased after "McDreamy" left. And shows like Mary Tyler Moore, MASH and Cheers all experienced ratings bumps after popular long time cast members left the show.

But none of that matters. What works (or doesn't work) in a network TV show tells us absolutely nothing about whether or not legacy characters will be embraced by the audiences in a connected cinematic universe. I wouldn't be surprised if Feige and company dip their toes further into this water - they already have with Scott Lang, Hope Van Dyne and Carol Danvers - over the next few years.

Not the same. We did not get a film where Hank Pym or Janet were Ant-Man and the Wasp. What we got was a movie where they once were and one was a mentor and the other long thought dead (there was never the Hank Pym and Janet movie where they were the stars and it was about them). Carol is being introduced without Mar-Vell ever having been a thing at all. That's not the same as killing off say RDJ, who the audience has seen as Iron Man since 2008 and in nearly 10 films, and replacing him with someone else.

 

[Zarex]

You're trying to compare apples and oranges. Bottom-line: The general audience knows Steve Rogers as Captain America. He's a top three merch seller. He is popular, he is beloved. His boss, Feige, likens Chris Evans performance as Cap to that of Christopher Reeve as Superman. Children especially love the guy and they are THE most lucrative demographic. He is tough shoes to fill. That is the end all and be all of it. You Bucky fans wanting Bucky to be accepted as Cap through the sheer force of your will and by arguing with me on the internet is not going to make it happen. In fact, that attitude is so damn entitled. You are not an accurate representative of the general audience. Not even close.

I am neither entitled, nor a Bucky fan. But here's some facts for you, comic book reader. Marvel will sell lots and lots of red white and blue shield T shirts regardless of whether Steve Rogers dies in Infinity War.

 

[SteveRogers41]

I am neither entitled, nor a Bucky fan. But here's some facts for you, comic book reader. Marvel will sell lots and lots of red white and blue shield T shirts regardless of whether Steve Rogers dies in Infinity War.

We shall see. I wouldn't count your chickens before they hatch.

 

[Flash525]

I am neither entitled, nor a Bucky fan. But here's some facts for you, comic book reader. Marvel will sell lots and lots of red white and blue shield T shirts regardless of whether Steve Rogers dies in Infinity War.

Quite possibly true, but (as I mentioned previously) you can almost expect people (especially children) buying these t-shirts are doing so in honour of Steve Rogers as Captain America. It's only fanboys (and not the general audience) that seem to be shooting for Bucky to take over the mantle.

 

[Venom'sDad]

It's already been explained (rather well I think) why the mainstream audience wouldn't take to Bucky as the next Captain America. Respectfully, I think your desire is clouding your judgement a little (as far as the MCU at least goes).

Bucky killed Howard Stark and his wife. That alone is going to be a constant reminder to the mainstream audience if Bucky suddenly suits up with the Shield. I think the scene with Steve and Bucky fighting Stark whilst passing the Shield between them was a nod to the comics (similarly to Steve almost picking up the Hammer in AoU); that's as far as this nod is going to go.

In my opinion, Marvel would be fools to replace Steve Rogers; if he is to die, simply let him (and the persona of Captain America) die with him.

Exactly....that is the prime reason. Which I suspect is the reason Fiege OK'ed the melding of characters, Bucky with Hunter. Not only will Bucky not take up the mantle of Cap & hold the shield, created by Howard, for the reasons you stated....but new Avengers will not accept him as one of their own. Falcon still doesn't trust he won't flip out & BW have not forgotten what he has done to her. Having the character transit from Winter Soldier(WS) to White Wolf(WW) afford Fiege to continue use Stan in the MCU, wrapping the WS story into a cocoon, and have him reborn as the WW...somebody, that has the full backing of a King, adopted by the ruling family Monarchy, & trusted by Shuri. With that level of support, from a former isolated & technology superior country, that until recently did not allow any outsiders cross into its borders, that will possibly supply the financing & tech....how would the new Avengers not feel more comfortable with him. He is completely reborn & still satisfy the street level super soldier hero for the Avengers....albeit, w/o the Shield.

In the world of movies, having a different character take over a dead one's role goes over better than legacies tend to. This is why I don't see a new person being Iron Man or Captain America. I see their place being occupied by say Black Panther or Captain Marvel.

I'm not trying to get in a debate about who lives, who dies...our opinions have spoke for itself.

What I will say, base on how I see things play out....I agree with you on CM & BP in a Leadership way, replacing the persona left by Cap. One reason why Fiege is letting it be known, Carol possess some of the same principles that Steve had.

With that said..... although again, I agree with you on the potential funding & logistics support of the Avengers by Wakanda, I certainly see a live & well Tony Stark, leading the team from a Nick Fury pov, chairman style involvement, moving forward into Phase 4. This allow him to do small or cameo roles, popping in & out, of everyone solo films, like NF currently does....maintaining, that big Hollywood Star Power, as Phase 4 try to find footing, with the new guys. Maybe even see a hint of the Illuminati.

 

[Melpardus]

Quite possibly true, but (as I mentioned previously) you can almost expect people (especially children) buying these t-shirts are doing so in honour of Steve Rogers as Captain America. It's only fanboys (and not the general audience) that seem to be shooting for Bucky to take over the mantle.

This. I know a bunch of MCU-exclusive fans - them pushing to watch the movies with me now that Infinity War is coming and Black Panther becoming an MCU character are what dragged me into this whole funny book thing in the first place - who are Captain America die-hards (and for what it's worth, not Bucky fans) and will undoubtedly be getting and/or wearing merch just because of their love for the character regardless of his in-universe life status. This goes for Iron Man too (which is partly why I've officially upped my expectations to seeing them both die in these next two movies, maybe with Tony doing the A.I. thing if Disney just can't cut themselves free of him). They've both had a good decade's worth of onscreen appearances and stories, and they're pretty firmly engrained in pop culture at this point. I'm sure they'll do well on merchandise sales long after the characters and actors go.

 

[Flash525]

Exactly....that is the prime reason. Which I suspect is the reason Fiege OK'ed the melding of characters, Bucky with Hunter. Not only will Bucky not take up the mantle of Cap & hold the shield, created by Howard, for the reasons you stated....but new Avengers will not accept him as one of their own. Falcon still doesn't trust he won't flip out & BW have not forgotten what he has done to her. Having the character transit from Winter Soldier(WS) to White Wolf(WW) afford Fiege to continue use Stan in the MCU, wrapping the WS story into a cocoon, and have him reborn as the WW...somebody, that has the full backing of a King, adopted by the ruling family Monarchy, & trusted by Shuri. With that level of support, from a former isolated & technology superior country, that until recently did not allow any outsiders cross into its borders, that will possibly supply the financing & tech....how would the new Avengers not feel more comfortable with him. He is completely reborn & still satisfy the street level super soldier hero for the Avengers....albeit, w/o the Shield.

The transition will be interesting, however I'm not actually sure that Bucky would become the typical Avenger; he may step in, sure, but presumably the public know who most (if not all) of the Avengers are at this point? Would the public support Bucky Barns? Even if it is detailed that he'd been brainwashed, many aren't going to be as forgiving. I suspect he'll remain in the dark, whilst helping out in an unofficial capacity. I guess we wont ultimately know until Avengers 4 wraps, and we see his interactions with other characters (especially Sam & Stark) during.

With that said..... although again, I agree with you on the potential funding & logistics support of the Avengers by Wakanda, I certainly see a live & well Tony Stark, leading the team from a Nick Fury pov, chairman style involvement, moving forward into Phase 4. This allow him to do small or cameo roles, popping in & out, of everyone solo films, like NF currently does....maintaining, that big Hollywood Star Power, as Phase 4 try to find footing, with the new guys. Maybe even see a hint of the Illuminati.

Oh I don't know. Stark has had ample opportunity to step down as Ironman, why would he suddenly do so after Avengers 4? Just because someone (Steve or Rhodey) dies? If anything, you'd expect him to be more likely to stay in the suit - to further protect people.

I know Stark has been Director of Shield in the comics, but I don't see that role for him in the MCU. If, by some miracle the MCU does go that route, they'd better address the damn Coulson situation.