Arrow Who's done with ARROW, for killing SPOILER off?

[Gallops]

I watch Game of Thrones so I'm used to characters that I become invested in getting killed off just because.

However, I don't think Laurel is dead, or staying dead for that matter. There's more to the "secret convo" her and Oliver had before she flatlined.

 

[sylabdul]

There's more to the "secret convo" her and Oliver had before she flatlined.

i agree. Something still to learn about that convo

 

[Adanu]

Let's be honest, none of you are dropping the show and will tune in next season lol. You may fast forward parts (I fast forward all Felocity parts) but you'll still tune in. Who ya foolin?

Arrow is officially off my DVR, so no. You don't speak for me.

 

[Herolee10]

I haven't watched "Arrow" since Felicity broke up with Oliver at the end of an episode after he made his tearful goodbye video to his son.

The only new footage that I've seen seen was Laurel's death since I wanted to see on how it was done but I have no desire to watch this show anymore.

Even the quality of the Flash has taken somewhat of a big dive when compared to last season but at least they have the fortune of not having someone as toxic as Felicity's character on their show.

I honestly wonder though....are people more upset over the fact that Laurel was killed due to being fans of her character. Or are they more upset about what Laurel's death represents, where it just pretty much shows the blatant bias and favoritism that the producers have for Felicity over anyone else?

 

[DCnightwing23]

I haven't watched "Arrow" since Felicity broke up with Oliver at the end of an episode after he made his tearful goodbye video to his son.

The only new footage that I've seen seen was Laurel's death since I wanted to see on how it was done but I have no desire to watch this show anymore.

Even the quality of the Flash has taken somewhat of a big dive when compared to last season but at least they have the fortune of not having someone as toxic as Felicity's character on their show.

I honestly wonder though....are people more upset over the fact that Laurel was killed due to being fans of her character. Or are they more upset about what Laurel's death represents, where it just pretty much shows the blatant bias and favoritism that the producers have for Felicity over anyone else?

It's the lack of respect to the source material and important characters in DC lore. First it's Arsenal, who didn't have the chance to shine, another character from the comics, now it's Black Canary who has been in the comics and is a pretty big female hero is DC history (character dates back to 1947) that gets the shaft in the worst possible way and never got the storylines or time for that matter to shine as well. I get this is CW's adaptation of the Green Arrow mythos, but taking important character's and story lines that have a history to them and essentially putting them thru a shredder is a entirely different thing all together. Now there's this little girl dressed as BC as wooden as can be, being given all this attention, it makes me scratch my head and say "why didn't the writers put this much focus on the REAL Black Canary?" If you want to remove the character from your show, increase the screen time of Felicity or the whiny/boring Thea that's fine, but it's not necessary to kill off a character like Black Canary.. You could've written her off to join LOT or have her come in, in a reoccurring role once or twice a season. You name it. It's the lack of respect for the material they are "adapting" this from that's even more alarming here.

 

[Syncos]

I haven't watched "Arrow" since Felicity broke up with Oliver at the end of an episode after he made his tearful goodbye video to his son.

The only new footage that I've seen seen was Laurel's death since I wanted to see on how it was done but I have no desire to watch this show anymore.

Even the quality of the Flash has taken somewhat of a big dive when compared to last season but at least they have the fortune of not having someone as toxic as Felicity's character on their show.

I honestly wonder though....are people more upset over the fact that Laurel was killed due to being fans of her character. Or are they more upset about what Laurel's death represents, where it just pretty much shows the blatant bias and favoritism that the producers have for Felicity over anyone else?

It's the lack of respect to the source material and important characters in DC lore. First it's Arsenal, who didn't have the chance to shine, another character from the comics, now it's Black Canary who has been in the comics and is a pretty big female hero is DC history (character dates back to 1947) that gets the shaft in the worst possible way and never got the storylines or time for that matter to shine as well. I get this is CW's adaptation of the Green Arrow mythos, but taking important character's and story lines that have a history to them and essentially putting them thru a shredder is a entirely different thing all together. Now there's this little girl dressed as BC as wooden as can be, being given all this attention, it makes me scratch my head and say "why didn't the writers put this much focus on the REAL Black Canary?" If you want to remove the character from your show, increase the screen time of Felicity or the whiny/boring Thea that's fine, but it's not necessary to kill off a character like Black Canary.. You could've written her off to join LOT or have her come in, in a reoccurring role once or twice a season. You name it. It's the lack of respect for the material they are "adapting" this from that's even more alarming here.

Pretty much this ^

I don't have any love lost for Laurel, or Katie. Honestly she was my least favourite part of the show for the first two seasons. That being said, she did make a marked improvement overall in the last season and a half.

I liked the roll they had her filling of knowing Oliver really well, and being able to give him advice as a friend. They should have stuck with that.

 

[The_Manhunter]

I'm done. I liked Laurel but to a larger extent her death symptomizes what the problem is for this show - fan pandering.

 

[SpideyVille]

I haven't watched "Arrow" since Felicity broke up with Oliver at the end of an episode after he made his tearful goodbye video to his son.

The only new footage that I've seen seen was Laurel's death since I wanted to see on how it was done but I have no desire to watch this show anymore.

Even the quality of the Flash has taken somewhat of a big dive when compared to last season but at least they have the fortune of not having someone as toxic as Felicity's character on their show.

I honestly wonder though....are people more upset over the fact that Laurel was killed due to being fans of her character. Or are they more upset about what Laurel's death represents, where it just pretty much shows the blatant bias and favoritism that the producers have for Felicity over anyone else?

Don't speak so soon. They returned last week with re-introducing the idea of Barry/Iris, only with Iris being the one to have feelings now, so if there's one thing I learned from CW shows, it's that we have one more season of back and forth going on before they finally hook up.

As for Laurel's death, it's a bit of both. Last season, I was so excited to see Roy as Arsenal, and aside from his mini arc with Laurel during Oliver's disappearance, he was completely under-utilized. This season, I was even more excited for both Thea and Laurel, and both have been under-utilized just as badly, despite being someone redemptive characters based on their earlier seasons.

If the rumors are true, Laurel was killed off because KC wanted out, and I can respect that and their decision to go forward with it, but that doesn't excuse her death being used to bring Olicity back together, or to have her give an endorsement. So for me, it's a sign of a much larger issue, which is that the show, writers and producers, are incredibly inconsistent in their decision making and have shown a complete disrespect to the characters and the fans.

The Flash may be dipping in quality, but I've yet to feel disrespected as a viewer. I may be disappointed in how things play out, but it hasn't gotten Arrow bad yet.

 

[Slade W]

Don't speak so soon. They returned last week with re-introducing the idea of Barry/Iris, only with Iris being the one to have feelings now, so if there's one thing I learned from CW shows, it's that we have one more season of back and forth going on before they finally hook up.

As for Laurel's death, it's a bit of both. Last season, I was so excited to see Roy as Arsenal, and aside from his mini arc with Laurel during Oliver's disappearance, he was completely under-utilized. This season, I was even more excited for both Thea and Laurel, and both have been under-utilized just as badly, despite being someone redemptive characters based on their earlier seasons.

If the rumors are true, Laurel was killed off because KC wanted out, and I can respect that and their decision to go forward with it, but that doesn't excuse her death being used to bring Olicity back together, or to have her give an endorsement. So for me, it's a sign of a much larger issue, which is that the show, writers and producers, are incredibly inconsistent in their decision making and have shown a complete disrespect to the characters and the fans.

The Flash may be dipping in quality, but I've yet to feel disrespected as a viewer. I may be disappointed in how things play out, but it hasn't gotten Arrow bad yet.

Wasn't Black Canary being one of the main and important characters on the show one of the things that they were promising fans back in 2012, before the show started? It is very easy to understand why people are annoyed about how things have unfolded in that regard, and even feel disrespected like you said. We got BC for one year, and then she was killed. She wasn't even as important to the team as Felicity and Diggle were, or Sara back in season 2. Fair enough, Felicity happened. It is good to be flexible and be able to make some changes from your original plans. It is understandable that they made her a big and important character because lots of people like her, and she certainly played her role well in seasons 1 and 2 and for parts of season 3 and 4, even if it wasn't the original plan, but that doesn't mean that you reduce the role of a character that you originally promised was going to play a big part on the show in order to make it happen.

Like I said, it is very easy to understand why lots of people are upset and annoyed about this. There is nothing wrong with killing off BC on a show that GA is the main character on, if you feel it is best for the story. This isn't the comics, they do not go on forever so that they can keep on making money. But before you kill her off, you make sure that she has played a big and important part on the show for a good while (and not just one season as a supporting player to the main three), and then, when you finally decide to kill her off because it is right for the story, you make sure she goes out with a bang and a blaze of glory, taking down lots of enemies with her and after she has put a major dent in the main villains plans. You certainly don't do what Guggenheim did, and have her last words be about propping up Oliver and Felicity's relationship.

In regards to KC wanting to go, maybe that is true. But wouldn't Guggenheim and co say this, so that some of the heat on them would lessen? I would say that higher-ups from DC asking for her to be killed off because they plan to use her in a movie would be more likely to be honest.

 

[SpideyVille]

Wasn't Black Canary being one of the main and important characters on the show one of the things that they were promising fans back in 2012, before the show started? It is very easy to understand why people are annoyed about how things have unfolded in that regard, and even feel disrespected like you said. We got BC for one year, and then she was killed. She wasn't even as important to the team as Felicity and Diggle were, or Sara back in season 2. Fair enough, Felicity happened. It is good to be flexible and be able to make some changes from your original plans. It is understandable that they made her a big and important character because lots of people like her, and she certainly played her role well in seasons 1 and 2 and for parts of season 3 and 4, even if it wasn't the original plan, but that doesn't mean that you reduce the role of a character that you originally promised was going to play a big part on the show in order to make it happen.

Like I said, it is very easy to understand why lots of people are upset and annoyed about this. There is nothing wrong with killing off BC on a show that GA is the main character on, if you feel it is best for the story. This isn't the comics, they do not go on forever so that they can keep on making money. But before you kill her off, you make sure that she has played a big and important part on the show for a good while (and not just one season as a supporting player to the main three), and then, when you finally decide to kill her off because it is right for the story, you make sure she goes out with a bang and a blaze of glory, taking down lots of enemies with her and after she has put a major dent in the main villains plans. You certainly don't do what Guggenheim did, and have her last words be about propping up Oliver and Felicity's relationship.

In regards to KC wanting to go, maybe that is true. But wouldn't Guggenheim and co say this, so that some of the heat on them would lessen? I would say that higher-ups from DC asking for her to be killed off because they plan to use her in a movie would be more likely to be honest.

I'm not too sure because to be honest, I was against this show, being a Justin Hartley GA fan at the time, that I didn't start following the show until season 2. But I do remember her being cast and the general belief was Laurel is going to be the Dinah Lance we know from the comics.

When season 2 started, and they bought in a Canary, and it was Sara, it looked like they were doing another one of their twists, like they had done with various other characters in season 1, such as Malcolm being the Dark Archer, and not Tommy, as you'd suspect. But then the rumors starting coming out that there was tension behind the scenes with Katie and Guggenheim, which was further fueled by Katie talking about how bummed she was to see that Caity Lotz was bought in to play the character she felt she was supposed to be.

So things looked fishy that early. But then the plan is set for her to finally be Black Canary, only for Felicity to be put in that female lead role in season 3. Most core fans hated that the romance was the focus, and this season, after promising to do better, they went back on their word and made it the center again for the second half.

All of this is why I strongly believe Guggenheim essentially forced her out. After all, if DC has plans for the character, why did they introduce a successor in the next episode? I strongly feel that Katie spoke up and asked for more screentime, and Guggenheim said no because Olicity, his pride and joy, needs the focus, and gave her the choice. Plus, keep in mind, every romantic interest Oliver has had has died, with the exception of the cop chick and Huntress, who both are on different series now. Even Laurel, before her death, their relationship was essentially being retconned to the point where it was only significant because Sara died and Lance hated Oliver. It seems so clear that they are trying to make Felicity be the only woman in his life that he can have any kind of romantic tie to. If Laurel is written off, people will still think there's a chance, and he needed to kill that so people could fully support Felicity, with the hopes of having this Lauriver/Olicity war end with a definite winner.

And to that last part, no. In Hollywood, you can't throw people under the bus, at least not right away. You lose a lot of trust and credibility that way, so it works in the favor of both parties to keep that a secret until years from now.

 

[Slade W]

I'm not too sure because to be honest, I was against this show, being a Justin Hartley GA fan at the time, that I didn't start following the show until season 2. But I do remember her being cast and the general belief was Laurel is going to be the Dinah Lance we know from the comics.

When season 2 started, and they bought in a Canary, and it was Sara, it looked like they were doing another one of their twists, like they had done with various other characters in season 1, such as Malcolm being the Dark Archer, and not Tommy, as you'd suspect. But then the rumors starting coming out that there was tension behind the scenes with Katie and Guggenheim, which was further fueled by Katie talking about how bummed she was to see that Caity Lotz was bought in to play the character she felt she was supposed to be.

So things looked fishy that early. But then the plan is set for her to finally be Black Canary, only for Felicity to be put in that female lead role in season 3. Most core fans hated that the romance was the focus, and this season, after promising to do better, they went back on their word and made it the center again for the second half.

All of this is why I strongly believe Guggenheim essentially forced her out. After all, if DC has plans for the character, why did they introduce a successor in the next episode? I strongly feel that Katie spoke up and asked for more screentime, and Guggenheim said no because Olicity, his pride and joy, needs the focus, and gave her the choice. Plus, keep in mind, every romantic interest Oliver has had has died, with the exception of the cop chick and Huntress, who both are on different series now. Even Laurel, before her death, their relationship was essentially being retconned to the point where it was only significant because Sara died and Lance hated Oliver. It seems so clear that they are trying to make Felicity be the only woman in his life that he can have any kind of romantic tie to. If Laurel is written off, people will still think there's a chance, and he needed to kill that so people could fully support Felicity, with the hopes of having this Lauriver/Olicity war end with a definite winner.

And to that last part, no. In Hollywood, you can't throw people under the bus, at least not right away. You lose a lot of trust and credibility that way, so it works in the favor of both parties to keep that a secret until years from now.

You could be right, maybe there were problems between them behind the scenes. We will never know. To back up what you are saying, there were rumours every year about her having problems with people. I never believed them because I like to give people the benefit of the doubt when I can, and she also seems like a nice person from what I have seen. She also posted a picture of her in a fridge and then quickly deleted it during season 2, referring to the whole putting women in fridges thing that is strongly associated with comics (this of course, being when Sara was part of TA). She also tweeted "not impressed" during the Oliver and Felicity sex scene last season, and again, I think she deleted it. I think there were other tweets relating to the show that she deleted. Maybe there were problems like you are saying, we will never find out, and like I said, I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt. For now, I will just put it down to a bad decision on Guggenheim's part. He doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt as much as KC IMO.

In regards to the very last thing that you have said, they could have done it in a way to make it look amicable. He wouldn't have had to badmouth her while doing it. He could just say that she wanted to try new things after being on the show for so long, and that they are sad to see her go and that they wish her the best. Just admitting that she wanted to go is not throwing her under the bus.

 

[SpideyVille]

You could be right, maybe there were problems between them behind the scenes. We will never know. To back up what you are saying, there were rumours every year about her having problems with people. I never believed them because I like to give people the benefit of the doubt when I can, and she also seems like a nice person from what I have seen. She also posted a picture of her in a fridge and then quickly deleted it during season 2, referring to the whole putting women in fridges thing that is strongly associated with comics (this of course, being when Sara was part of TA). She also tweeted "not impressed" during the Oliver and Felicity sex scene last season, and again, I think she deleted it. I think there were other tweets relating to the show that she deleted. Maybe there were problems like you are saying, we will never find out, and like I said, I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt. For now, I will just put it down to a bad decision on Guggenheim's part. He doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt as much as KC IMO.

In regards to the very last thing that you have said, they could have done it in a way to make it look amicable. He wouldn't have had to badmouth her while doing it. He could just say that she wanted to try new things after being on the show for so long, and that they are sad to see her go and that they wish her the best. Just admitting that she wanted to go is not throwing her under the bus.

I think by saying she wanted to try new things, that would open a new can of worms. Like, she's been on record saying how excited she is to be the Black Canary, so what changed? And even then, why kill her instead of writing her off like Roy?

Then there's also the explanation of how long they knew it was going to be her. If she wanted to to try new things, then they knew she was lying from the start, and if that's the case, why not give her more to do? By saying they didn't know who was dying, and that they ultimately decided on Laurel because it would be "impactful" is essentially them just trying to save face. It's a tough situation to be in, but whatever really happened is going to be just as much a mystery as whether or not Tom Welling refused to wear the Superman costume, or if that was the Producer's decision.

 

[Slade W]

I think by saying she wanted to try new things, that would open a new can of worms. Like, she's been on record saying how excited she is to be the Black Canary, so what changed? And even then, why kill her instead of writing her off like Roy?

Then there's also the explanation of how long they knew it was going to be her. If she wanted to to try new things, then they knew she was lying from the start, and if that's the case, why not give her more to do? By saying they didn't know who was dying, and that they ultimately decided on Laurel because it would be "impactful" is essentially them just trying to save face. It's a tough situation to be in, but whatever really happened is going to be just as much a mystery as whether or not Tom Welling refused to wear the Superman costume, or if that was the Producer's decision.

Yeah, those are fair points. It will be interesting to see if more comes out about it.

Also, just curious, were there any rumours about why Welling may not have wanted to wear the costume?

 

[Primal Slayer]

MG made a point to address the rumors of KC wanting to leave and he said it was false. KC was to excited about this role to want out. She was probably frustrated being under utilized but that's probably about all, she even said she hoped she wasn't the one to bite the dust.

I will forever think it partially had to do with showing the fans that this is their show and they do what they want. Having the main cast now be all "original" characters doesn't help make it look like an agenda.

 

[Justin]

I intend to watch the end of the season. I'll check out the trailers for season 5 and see if it's something I'm interested in. But I watch out of habit now and have very low expectations so it's not as bad anymore when it sucks.

I've never known a show go from must watch to where I fall asleep almost every single episode before.

 

[Reynard531]

Hell everybody. I'm new here. I would have posted on here sooner, but I've had a lot of technical issues.

Anyway, I'm done watching Arrow after what happened with Black Canary. I think I almost screamed myself hoarse at the end of that episode.

But since we're on the subject, I was wondering if somebody could answer something for me. I heard/read somewhere that Guggenheim/ the rest of the staff had proposed the idea of killing a major character but didn't figure out WHO until near when the episode was filmed. Something like that. Could someone tell me if that's true?

 

[Boy Scout]

That's what they told us, yes.

 

[Reynard531]

That's what they told us, yes.

Thank you.

And if that's true, that shows you that something is seriously wrong with how they handle this show. Okay, so they propose the idea to kill a major cast member. Fine. But then they go ahead and promise that to their fanbase without figuring out WHO or the impact any particular choice would have?!

I mean, if it was "Hey, let's have Oliver learn how to cook and we can have an episode where he makes his infamous Chill of Ultimate Doom. Don't know what episode we'd put it in though. We'll figure that out later."

That would be fine. But we're talking MAIN CAST MEMBER DEATH. Who DOES that?! That's...not a good way to do a TV show. If it was Guggenheim's idea, that's the mark of a bad showrunner. And even if he didn't come up with the idea, he shouldn't have gone along with it.

After all, he's THE SHOWRUNNER. One of his jobs is the show's overall story direction. Even if it wasn't his proposal, it's his responsibility and his failure.

 

[Gallops]

Thank you.

And if that's true, that shows you that something is seriously wrong with how they handle this show. Okay, so they propose the idea to kill a major cast member. Fine. But then they go ahead and promise that to their fanbase without figuring out WHO or the impact any particular choice would have?!

I mean, if it was "Hey, let's have Oliver learn how to cook and we can have an episode where he makes his infamous Chill of Ultimate Doom. Don't know what episode we'd put it in though. We'll figure that out later."

That would be fine. But we're talking MAIN CAST MEMBER DEATH. Who DOES that?! That's...not a good way to do a TV show. If it was Guggenheim's idea, that's the mark of a bad showrunner. And even if he didn't come up with the idea, he shouldn't have gone along with it.

After all, he's THE SHOWRUNNER. One of his jobs is the show's overall story direction. Even if it wasn't his proposal, it's his responsibility and his failure.

Unfortunately, shows kill off main characters. Some times it's because the cast member wants to leave or is being forced off the show. Sometimes it's because the showrunners want to add more drama to the series (as in this situation). Sometimes it's to follow a story that happened in other media (comics, novel, etc.)

Do I agree with them killing off Laurel? No. I don't think it was the right choice, but I feel like it would be the reaction the entire fan base would have unless it was Felicity who was killed off. I'm sure they have something planned with Laurel's death. Maybe she ends up on LOT next season as a past version of herself. Who knows.

 

[Slade W]

Unfortunately, shows kill off main characters. Some times it's because the cast member wants to leave or is being forced off the show. Sometimes it's because the showrunners want to add more drama to the series (as in this situation). Sometimes it's to follow a story that happened in other media (comics, novel, etc.)

Do I agree with them killing off Laurel? No. I don't think it was the right choice, but I feel like it would be the reaction the entire fan base would have unless it was Felicity who was killed off. I'm sure they have something planned with Laurel's death. Maybe she ends up on LOT next season as a past version of herself. Who knows.

Quentin's death would have made much more sense, and I really doubt that there would have been a negative reaction to it, even though I think most people like Quentin, mainly because it would have made more sense.

 

[Gallops]

Quentin's death would have made much more sense, and I really doubt that there would have been a negative reaction to it, even though I think most people like Quentin, mainly because it would have made more sense.

See I don't think Quentin dying would have generated as big of a reaction from the entire team. Laurel would have been a mess and wanted revenge, but other than her, I don't feel like everyone else was AS close with him as they were with Laurel. Hell, even when Sara died, they were all sad but I don't feel like the reaction for the team was the same.

Plus, killing off Quentin would have looked like they didn't have the balls to kill off a main character.

 

[Slade W]

See I don't think Quentin dying would have generated as big of a reaction from the entire team. Laurel would have been a mess and wanted revenge, but other than her, I don't feel like everyone else was AS close with him as they were with Laurel. Hell, even when Sara died, they were all sad but I don't feel like the reaction for the team was the same.

Plus, killing off Quentin would have looked like they didn't have the balls to kill off a main character.

Here is a post that I made before, regarding Quentin and the impact that his death would have had.

Quentin's death would have made the most sense, as there is not many more places to go with the character. Laurel, in comparison, had far more potential and growing to do. There are far more possibilities for the show with Laurel on it than Quentin. His death would also have had an effect on lots of people. It would have affected Oliver, Laurel, Felicity (because of the horrible effect that it would have on her mother, Donna). And while to a much lesser extent, Diggle and Thea would also have been hurt by it, as I am sure that they have grown to appreciate and respect the former police captain more over the course of the season, as he has aided them by providing an insight into Darhk's operations and risked a lot in doing so.

It also would have fit his character perfectly. His character is a tragic one. He is a man who cannot find happiness, and when he starts to come close to it, it is swiftly and cruelly taken away from him and he is put in a worse position than he was before. What makes it worse is that he is a good man, a kind person, that loves his family more than anything and who just wants to help people and make the city a better place. Despite the flaws that he has, he deserves better. If he had to be killed off the show, there would have been no ending more fitting, more appropriate, more right than him going out protecting Laurel or Sara, just when he was beginning to find happiness in his life with Donna and his relationship with Laurel being in a very good place. It would have summed up the man and his life perfectly and would have been quite beautiful in a way, if not sad too. Tragic characters normally have tragic ends. The Lance family and their lives are filled with tragedy, but one member of the family had much more tragedy to face, obstacles to overcome and grow stronger for it, while the other should have been coming closer to their tragic end. They got them mixed up though.

 

[b_boy]

Just remember how good Oliver's mother death was done in season 2. Replicating that tension with Quentin would make a very emotional scene and I don't think would put off viewers....

 

[Slade W]

I agree.

 

[SpideyVille]

Killing Quentin wouldn't have put off viewers because it's expected. It would suck, but he was kinda like how Felicity was early on where you like the character but know they are meant to die at some point. The only problem is, neither did.